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Is Sarah Palin's use of the American flag a breach of federal law?

Is Sarah Palin's use of the flag breaking the law?

  • YES! Fine her! Throw her in jail!

    Votes: 3 6.5%

  • Maybe...it seems disrespectful.

    Votes: 2 4.3%

  • Really? This is what we're talking about?

    Votes: 41 89.1%
  • Total voters
    46
Guy Incognito said:
Congress is us.
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I didn't vote for 99% of congress, and probably close to that same amount don't represent me or my ideology. Their personal and financial interests weigh more heavily for them than the interests of the people.
 
Guy Incognito said:
I must disagree with you there. Ritual and sincerity both have value.
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To you the ritual has value, to me personally rituals have little value, especially when confronted with my personal honor, and the validity of my word - swearing an oath or pledging allegiance raises the stakes even higher. In this situation the ritual is of no value since it requires me to pledge dishonestly - this is something I will not do.
 
tessaesque said:
I didn't vote for 99% of congress, and probably close to that same amount don't represent me or my ideology. Their personal and financial interests weigh more heavily for them than the interests of the people.
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You shouldn't be so cynical, especially with an avatar like that.
 
marduc said:
To you the ritual has value, to me personally rituals have little value, especially when confronted with my personal honor, and the validity of my word - swearing an oath or pledging allegiance raises the stakes even higher. In this situation the ritual is of no value since it requires me to pledge dishonestly - this is something I will not do.
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Apparently you value the ritual quite a bit if you have such strong opinions about it. Valuing ritual is a good thing. You should work to change the Pledge, not deny its value. Otherwise you are acting like the fox in Aesop's Fox and the Grapes.
 
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TheGreatSandeno said:
Kinda like the whole "Obama's a socialist" thing. Never mind that most of the people using that term probably didn't even know what it meant.

I also find it hilarious that the picture you used as satire is from a "Support Our Troops" rally.
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You sure it wasn't a counter protest to the Westboro Baptist Church. Those people come up with some funny signs.
 
Tucker Case said:
That definitely violates the following codes:



It potentialy violates these codes



depending on circumstances.

Overall, it is very disrespectful towards the flag.

Personally, I feel that she has every right to be disrespectful to the flag if she wants to.
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But she is NOT being disrespectful to the flag. That flag on the front of her bus is showing her patriotism.
 
palin-armed.jpg
 
Guy Incognito said:
Apparently you value the ritual quite a bit if you have such strong opinions about it. Valuing ritual is a good thing. You should work to change the Pledge, not deny its value. This is like Aesop's fox and the grapes.
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Apparently you are trying to attribute something to me that is not the case, symbolism, and now by extension as the conversation goes on ritual really seem to be primitive throwback behaviors that are borderline superstitious to me. They seriously make little sense to me. I also feel that they dilute that which they are representing
 
Tucker Case said:
Where does it make that distinction? I may have missed it





Read the first sentence again.





Again, where is that distinction made? I did not see it.



Both of those are also disrespectful, but I would say they are not as disrespectful because they are not being pelted by insects.
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Ok if the code is referring to painted pictures of flags, lapel pens, etc. then where are the instructions to dispose of them properly. They give instructions of what to do with an old, damaged, flags.

American flag - Definition | WordIQ.com
The approved method of destroying old and tattered flags consists of burning them in a simple ceremony. The flag is cut into three pieces: first a horizontal cut is made between the seventh and eighth stripes, then a vertical cut separating the star field from the seven shorter stripes. Then the three pieces are typically placed on a pyre as 'Taps' is played
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The flag code is for FLAGS, not images of the red white and blue.
 
marduc said:
Apparently you are trying to attribute something to me that is not the case, symbolism, and now by extension as the conversation goes on ritual really seem to be primitive throwback behaviors that are borderline superstitious to me. They seriously make little sense to me. I also feel that they dilute that which they are representing
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I think what you don't like is the word ritual. You are not averse to oaths and pledges (which are rituals), and you take them seriously to the point that you will not dishonestly take an oath. Why? Is this not because you value the ritual of oath taking?

If the Pledge did not contain the words "under God," presumably you would say it, right? That's a ritual you would value, right?

Human beings are hard-wired for ritual, there is no escaping it. To say otherwise it to be dishonest.
 
Barbbtx said:
Again, she is wearing a patriotic bikini, showing her patriotism.
Unless it was made from a flag, she is a patriot.
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It's a fake picture. But flag bikinis are a violation of the "no flags as wearing apparel" provision of the code. So yes, that is disrespectful.
 
If we cannot burn a flag we own, or wear a bikini, jock strap, t-shirt, or vest made out of a flag, then the flag means nothing and it would mean nothing to wear it.

the fact that people can burn it and not be persecuted is why the flag and what it stands for is stronger than either protestors who denigrate it or fascists who want to shoot someone who burns it
 
X Factor said:
How about this (you're going to be known as the flag code guru after this).

new-nfl-logo-228x300.jpg
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I think some people are offended when they see anyone displaying any sort of patriotism.
If they depict the displaying of it as somehow disrespectful than maybe they'll see less of it.
Makes me want to go have my truck painted just for the hec of it. :)
 
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Guy Incognito said:
It's a fake picture. But flag bikinis are a violation of the "no flags as wearing apparel" provision of the code. So yes, that is disrespectful.
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Was the bikini made from a flag? No. It was made from a bolt of red and white striped fabric and from a bolt of blue fabric with white stars. No one took an American flag and cut it up to make a bikini. That would be wrong.
 
Barbbtx said:
Was the bikini made from a flag? No.
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This is from 4 USC 1:
The words “flag, standard, colors, or ensign”, as used herein, shall include any flag, standard, colors, ensign, or any picture or representation of either, or of any part or parts of either, made of any substance or represented on any substance, of any size evidently purporting to be either of said flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States of America or a picture or a representation of either, upon which shall be shown the colors, the stars and the stripes, in any number of either thereof, or of any part or parts of either, by which the average person seeing the same without deliberation may believe the same to represent the flag, colors, standard, or ensign of the United States of America.The words “flag, standard, colors, or ensign”, as used herein, shall include any flag, standard, colors, ensign, or any picture or representation of either, or of any part or parts of either, made of any substance or represented on any substance, of any size evidently purporting to be either of said flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States of America or a picture or a representation of either, upon which shall be shown the colors, the stars and the stripes, in any number of either thereof, or of any part or parts of either, by which the average person seeing the same without deliberation may believe the same to represent the flag, colors, standard, or ensign of the United States of America.
 
Guy Incognito said:
Incorrect. My time is valuable, and I am not going to relieve you of your burden in the debate. You should support your own arguments and not whine about having to do so. At least you've done the former:roll:

Now, my answers? The first three murals clearly violate flag code, the last picture clearly does not.
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You didn't see the beauty in them. sad
 
Guy Incognito said:
I think what you don't like is the word ritual. You are not averse to oaths and pledges (which are rituals), and you take them seriously to the point that you will not dishonestly take an oath. Why? Is this not because you value the ritual of oath taking?
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I value my word, if I am to give it, especially if I am to swear to its validity than it has meaning -significant meaning, this has nothing to do with a ritual, it has everything to do with "I attest that what I am saying is true". It is an honesty thing, not a ritual thing.

You are splitting hairs by calling giving an oath or giving your word a ritual, especially when it is not formalized. If I go out and come back at 4 am and say to my girlfriend "I give you my word I was not at the strip cub" or "I swear I was not at the strip club", or "I pledge I will not cheat on you" this is not a ritual.

Guy Incognito said:
If the Pledge did not contain the words "under God," presumably you would say it, right? That's a ritual you would value, right?
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No, I would still have to pledge allegiance to a symbol (the flag), I feel no allegiance to the symbol. If you removed that I still would not feel much value to the ritual, nor to saying the pledge, it really does feel like a watered down reflexive activity. I would not feel dishonest in saying it if those were removed; however I do not quite grasp the validity of saying it over and over just because. If you swore allegiance, then that is it, you have sworn allegiance. No need to do it again and again. although others may look at you funny and with disdain even if you do not participate - at least if i were so motivated I could say it honestly, and actually mean it, although I find the repetition unnecessary. The only reasons to do so is to affirm to others around you that you are of a like mind, and it is often more uncomfortable not going along with the ritual -even if you find it hollow- than to just go along with it, especially when others cannot seem to grasp that ritualistic behavior really is not something that you personally put any stock in.

So basically at times I might say an amended version as you proposed simply to not feel awkward, and I could at least do so honestly - at others I might not feel compelled to, and it certainly would never be an overwhelming compulsion to join in, but rather an acceptance that this holds significant meaning to others, and that others actually do take offense when I do not participate. Just like now on the rare occasions that I mouth a truncated pledge in lieu of not saying it, it would still feel kind of silly to participate in the ritualistic behavior, this would not change with an amended version.

Human beings are hard-wired for ritual, there is no escaping it. To say otherwise it to be dishonest.
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I have to disagree on the hard wired bit, although humans seem to be attuned and drawn towards ritualistic behaviors. I have said this repeatedly, I find this to be based on primitive behaviors, it is a relic of bygone ages and times IMO. Unfortunately it seems you cannot fathom that someone else does not find significance or meaning in ritual. I doubt we will get much further going back and forth over it.
 
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Barbbtx said:
You didn't see the beauty in them. sad
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What on earth are you talking about. Had you bothered to read the thread before shooting your mouth off, you might have seen the post

Guy Incognito said:
It's a nice painting, I just wish it was indoors. It's a violation.
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Why don't you wait until you've read the whole thread before you spout off, huh? Do your due diligence!
 
TurtleDude said:
If we cannot burn a flag we own, or wear a bikini, jock strap, t-shirt, or vest made out of a flag, then the flag means nothing and it would mean nothing to wear it.

the fact that people can burn it and not be persecuted is why the flag and what it stands for is stronger than either protestors who denigrate it or fascists who want to shoot someone who burns it
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There's a difference between what you can do and what you should do. There are rights, and there are morals.

I would defend to my death the right of a hippie to burn a flag in protest, but I sure as hell wouldn't shake his hand.
 
Guy Incognito said:
There's a difference between what you can do and what you should do. There are rights, and there are morals.

I would defend to my death the right of a hippie to burn a flag in protest, but I sure as hell wouldn't shake his hand.
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I don't disagree with what you said but I don't believe what you said really relates to what I said either
 
Aunt Spiker said:
Did Obama have a campaign commercial that scribbled graffiti all over the flag?
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Guy Incognito said:
I haven't seen that, but he damn well better not have. I saw an Obama pin earlier in this thread with a part of a Flag on it, which is arguably not a violation but still pretty lawyerly (read: scummy) if you ask me.
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This was one of the top 20 finalists on Obama's website at one point.
 
Whovian said:

This was one of the top 20 finalists on Obama's website at one point.
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I count three flag code violations:
exposure to the elements
use in advertising
writing on the flag

Pretty egregious if you ask me.
 
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