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Plastic Surgery for Children With Down's Syndrome.

Do you support plastic surgery for children to lessen the "look" of Down's Syndrome?

  • Total voters
    22
Harry Guerrilla said:
I've had A LOT of experience with people who have physical "deformities" and wanting people to be more educated is kinda pie in the sky, in my opinion.

For every 1 person that doesn't care, there are 1000 more people who treat them like freaks.
It's more of a person just wanting to fit in and the parents would probably rather the child not be treated as such, all their life.
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So the obvious solution is to subject a non-consenting child to huge amounts of pain and danger just so we can "hide" them?

I really don't know too many people over the age of 9 who don't know what Downs kids look like and that it's not a big deal. You're really assuming your average person is pretty stupid, and pretty cruel. I don't find that to be the case. I saw kids at my school picking on the "normal" kids more than the disabled or "deformed" kids. Because we were taught not to.
 
MistressNomad said:
So the obvious solution is to subject a non-consenting child to huge amounts of pain and danger just so we can "hide" them?

I really don't know too many people over the age of 9 who don't know what Downs kids look like and that it's not a big deal. You're really assuming your average person is pretty stupid, and pretty cruel. I don't find that to be the case. I saw kids at my school picking on the "normal" kids more than the disabled or "deformed" kids. Because we were taught not to.
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The average person is really stupid.

I've spent the last 10 or so years of my life living around persons with physical disabilities.
Go into Walmart or practically anywhere and you will see what happens.

People treat them like they have a severe mental handicap.
Most just want to fit in and not be bothered.
 
Kandahar said:
I see nothing wrong with it. What if you had a child who was born with some physical deformity, or had their appearance badly mangled in an accident? Wouldn't you want to correct it if possible? I think this is similar. People with Down's Syndrome look different, and will be judged based on their appearance, so I see nothing wrong with trying to make them look more "normal."

The idea of educating society instead of changing the appearance is unrealistic. This particular family's ability to make society less ignorant is limited, whereas their ability to change their child's appearance through surgery is considerable. I don't blame them at all for wanting their child to be happy, and to not be viewed as a freak by other people.
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You're acting as though Downs kids are hideously deformed or something. They really aren't that weird-looking. They're identifiable as "not quite like normal people" but it's not like they have an arm growing out of their head.

You're failing to recognize educating people has worked. Does anyone here freak out when they see a Downs person? Does anyone here think they would bully a Downs kid? I'd be shocked if anyone here would react very differently at all to meeting someone with Downs. I bet most of you probably do now and then. And I bet it's absolutely nothing special.

And I know we can teach this to kids pretty young, because I went to a school were we did that. And I know kids can be taught to leave disabled people alone, and they do more so than they leave each other alone, because that's how things were.

And I doubt a family that can afford to force cosmetic surgery on their kids for no valid reason is shy on resources.
 
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MistressNomad said:
You're acting as though Downs kids are hideously deformed or something. They really aren't that weird-looking. They're identifiable as "not quite like normal people" but it's not like they have an arm growing out of their head.

You're failing to recognize educating people has worked. Does anyone here freak out when they see a Downs person? Does anyone here think they would bully a Downs kid? I'd be shocked if anyone here would react very differently at all to meeting someone with Downs. I bet most of you probably do now and then. And I bet it's absolutely nothing special.

And I know we can teach this to kids pretty young, because I went to a school were we did that. And I know kids can be taught to leave disabled people alone, and they do more so than they each other alone, because that's how things were.

And I doubt a family that can afford to force cosmetic surgery on their kids for no valid reason is shy on resources.
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No one is saying that at all.

The fact is that a great many people, including parents of children with down syndrome, don't want to be defined by their disability.
Reducing the societal effect of that can help a person cope mentally with situations that arise from their appearance.

One person I'm close with has a multi birth defect that caused a limb amputation and skin discoloration.

The nerve and rudeness of some people, you just wouldn't believe.

Adults, tugging on their clothing, asking "whats wrong with you?" and things of that nature.
This person does not want to be defined as the "crippled person" but people typically and rudely do so.
 
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I don't see how being so ashamed of the way your child looks that you force them to have cosmetic surgery sends the message of acceptance. In their parents eyes, their child is SO defined by their disability that they need to hide it by any means necessary, even at the risk of their lives.

Perhaps more schools should have the sort of mentor program mine had. It's simple and probably saves the school money. And it teaches kids not to act like jerks towards people who are different.

I know most schools don't have that. So obviously there isn't enough of it going around for you to say it's "not working."
 
What?? Oh, hell no! Plastic surgery on a child for purely comestic reasons, and not to repair a facial flaw like cleft palette that severely affects the child's health is absolutely horrible. Facial surgery is extremely painful, the recovery takes (I understand) many weeks. To inflict this on a child just to make them "prettier" is the epitome of parental betrayal and frankly is child abuse. The "coverage" it provides of the child's condition is purely superficial, since a Down's Syndrome child will always have learning disabilities to varying degrees, which anyone who spends a moment conversing with them will immediately perceive.

This is not something that is being done for the good of the child. It's being done for the good of the parents. It should be illegal.
 
MistressNomad said:
I don't see how being so ashamed of the way your child looks that you force them to have cosmetic surgery sends the message of acceptance. In their parents eyes, their child is SO defined by their disability that they need to hide it by any means necessary, even at the risk of their lives.

Perhaps more schools should have the sort of mentor program mine had. It's simple and probably saves the school money. And it teaches kids not to act like jerks towards people who are different.

I know most schools don't have that. So obviously there isn't enough of it going around for you to say it's "not working."
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The treating disabled people like freaks thing comes from unfamiliarity with those people.
Inside schools, most kids with disabilities become sort of like mascots, because the kids become familiar with them on a daily basis.

It's the people in public, that you do not know where the majority of the problems come from.

I do agree, that manners should be more widely taught, but if it isn't reinforced at home, it's for naught.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
The treating disabled people like freaks thing comes from unfamiliarity with those people.
Inside schools, most kids with disabilities become sort of like mascots, because the kids become familiar with them on a daily basis.

It's the people in public, that you do not know where the majority of the problems come from.

I do agree, that manners should be more widely taught, but if it isn't reinforced at home, it's for naught.
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I switched school districts at the end of elementary. The district I wound up in didn't have a program like my previous school did. And I did see more bullying. Obviously it makes some sort of a difference if kids really spend time around these people.

DiAnna makes a good point as well. Trying to "fix" them physically doesn't change that their disability is noticable in other ways. Perhaps how they move, how they speak, etc. Most people pick up on this pretty quickly, even in passing. It doesn't even really work to "hide" the disability. It's purely symbolic. So even if it wasn't just a terrible thing to do to a child, it also probably doesn't work.
 
MistressNomad said:
I switched school districts at the end of elementary. The district I wound up in didn't have a program like my previous school did. And I did see more bullying. Obviously it makes some sort of a difference if kids really spend time around these people.

DiAnna makes a good point as well. Trying to "fix" them physically doesn't change that their disability is noticable in other ways. Perhaps how they move, how they speak, etc. Most people pick up on this pretty quickly, even in passing. It doesn't even really work to "hide" the disability. It's purely symbolic. So even if it wasn't just a terrible thing to do to a child, it also probably doesn't work.
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While many clef pallets are only cosmetic in nature, they can prevent the guttural and nasty reactions of ignorant people.
The same goes for many other bodily disfigurements and disabilities.

I just don't think you can understand, until you experience it.
 
MistressNomad said:
You're acting as though Downs kids are hideously deformed or something. They really aren't that weird-looking. They're identifiable as "not quite like normal people" but it's not like they have an arm growing out of their head.
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And I think that many people who didn't look quite like a "normal person" would be self-conscious about their appearance, and likely to be treated differently.

MistressNomad said:
You're failing to recognize educating people has worked. Does anyone here freak out when they see a Downs person? Does anyone here think they would bully a Downs kid? I'd be shocked if anyone here would react very differently at all to meeting someone with Downs. I bet most of you probably do now and then. And I bet it's absolutely nothing special.
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Are you talking about when we're adults or kids? If you're talking about kids, yes, kids do ostracize those with Downs syndrome. I remember in my school growing up, we had several kids who were mentally retarded. Some of them "looked" like it and others didn't (possibly due to a condition other than DS). The ones who looked like it were often excluded, whereas the ones who didn't had friends who were "normal." They may have been teased for being dumb, but for the most part they were treated more or less like anyone else.

As for adults, no, they wouldn't "freak out" or "bully" someone who has Downs syndrome. But they would most definitely prejudge them and treat them differently.

MistressNomad said:
And I know we can teach this to kids pretty young, because I went to a school were we did that. And I know kids can be taught to leave disabled people alone, and they do more so than they leave each other alone, because that's how things were.
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But that's my point. They're being treated differently and isolated from their peers. Because of their appearance, you can automatically assume that they're disabled and that therefore it would be wrong for kids to treat them the way that they normally treat one another.

MistressNomad said:
And I doubt a family that can afford to force cosmetic surgery on their kids for no valid reason is shy on resources.
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I don't know what their wealth has to do with anything. Unless they're billionaires, one family can't educate the world, but they can make their kid look "normal" if that's what they want.
 
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What I meant by "leave them alone," which I think was the contingent upon which you based that, is that they didn't get bullied. They got bullied less than the "normal" kids did.

But because we had time in school dedicated specifically with getting to know them, they really weren't that ostracized. People would play with them, and they got teased less than I did.
 
X Factor said:
I don't disagree with you necessarily, but I think an argument could be made that the parents just don't want their child pre-judged by her appearance.
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Absolutely, it'll be much better for the childs self esteem for people to approach them as a normal person, and then react with shock and pity when they find out that they have Down Syndrome.:roll:
 
spud_meister said:
Absolutely, it'll be much better for the childs self esteem for people to approach them as a normal person, and then react with shock and pity when they find out that they have Down Syndrome.:roll:
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Hardly think so. If Down kids talked and looked like everyone else, then they would be like small kids. Cosmetic surgery can't make them less strange and they will still talk funny, but they will be considered cute and adorable. That will make more people approach them and they will be treated better.

You may think it is shallow, but our society judges people by looks. I understand the parents decision.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
The tongue correction with DS could correct speech problems.
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My god daughter has Downs Syndrome. There are a few physical indications of it with regards to her face (eyes, nose, forehead) that look slightly off. However, the main thing is her tongue.

She's actually very smart for someone with Downs, and has the capacity to fall within the normal range of IQ for a healthy person. However, even now with her getting into her early elementary school years, her biggest issue is communication. She gets very angry and has social issues because she can't communicate clearly what she's thinking and thus she lashes out. Its much the same way and reason that many babies/toddlers will get angry because they know what they want but can't fully express it and it frustrates them.

I wouldn't begrudge her parents if they wanted to get her cosmetic plastic surgery for her face. While I don't think its necessary, I can't fault a parent for doing something honestly due to the feeling it'll give their daughter a better and less troubled life. However, I wouldn't personally suggest it or support it. However, when it comes to the tongue, I would absolutely support action taken with that. I think that if it would allow her to communicate better it would be a godsend, allowing her to interact socially far better and to learn far better as well.
 
I would consider a severe speech problem a medical problem. Speech is a major component of functioning as a human being. If speech therapy has failed to give her an acceptable level of speech competence, then considering surgery to correct that is somewhat different than considering it to make her "prettier." Especially considering her high IQ, which probably means she has a lot of drive to communicate. This is, after all, how kids learn.

But another aspect may be speech delay, or a gap in understanding speech vs. knowing how to communicate it, both of which can also be issues with Downs. I don't claim to know whether her main problem is speech impediment, delay, or understanding, but if it's the latter 2, surgery won't help, and becomes cosmetic once again.

I just think that considering what will actually and truthfully help the child is the most important thing to consider. There's no evidence cosmetic surgery does. I had a bit of a read about this - apparently it's happened before, and independent raters didn't seem to notice much difference - indicating the ability to pick out "differences" is not deterred by plastic surgery. And how would it be? Differences in stature, movement, head shape, etc are all still there. There's no evidence it actually improves the child's quality of life.
 
MistressNomad said:
I would consider a severe speech problem a medical problem. Speech is a major component of functioning as a human being. If speech therapy has failed to give her an acceptable level of speech competence, then considering surgery to correct that is somewhat different than considering it to make her "prettier." Especially considering her high IQ, which probably means she has a lot of drive to communicate. This is, after all, how kids learn.

But another aspect may be speech delay, or a gap in understanding speech vs. knowing how to communicate it, both of which can also be issues with Downs. I don't claim to know whether her main problem is speech impediment, delay, or understanding, but if it's the latter 2, surgery won't help, and becomes cosmetic once again.

I just think that considering what will actually and truthfully help the child is the most important thing to consider. There's no evidence cosmetic surgery does. I had a bit of a read about this - apparently it's happened before, and independent raters didn't seem to notice much difference - indicating the ability to pick out "differences" is not deterred by plastic surgery. And how would it be? Differences in stature, movement, head shape, etc are all still there. There's no evidence it actually improves the child's quality of life.
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Can you post the link to the "reading" you did on this? I'd like to see the differences before and after and see what people say.
 
Parents can and do choose elective surgeries for their children for a variety of reasons. To repair a major birth defect or condition that makes eating, speaking, walking, etc., difficult would be sensible, just as sensible as a parent who approves surgery to repair a child's heart valve or correct any major health issue. However, a full-face plastic surgery for purely cometic means on a young child would be a horrific, painful, lingering trauma that no legitimate]/b] ever would or should undertake.

I just don't understand the mindset of those who believe otherwise. :(
 
I think this is wrong. We shouldn't subject people with Downs syndrome to plastic surgery because some people cannot accept them due to their appearance. It assumes that there is something wrong with how someone with Downs looks. The problem lies within the people who judge based on appearance and who would judge an individual worth Downs syndrome based on how they look. Supporting this would only cater to the immaturity of those who can't look past appearance.
 
digsbe said:
I think this is wrong. We shouldn't subject people with Downs syndrome to plastic surgery because some people cannot accept them due to their appearance. It assumes that there is something wrong with how someone with Downs looks. The problem lies within the people who judge based on appearance and who would judge an individual worth Downs syndrome based on how they look. Supporting this would only cater to the immaturity of those who can't look past appearance.
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Why do girls wear make up, it costs money and is pointless? Shouldn't girls just say, I don't care how I look and be ugly. But fact is people do. You can try to change the world, but you won't be able to.

It seems to me that most people are against it, because they think it is morally wrong. However, I care more about the consequences. And if the girl get plastic surgery then she will have a better life. Is it wrong to want your child to have a better life?
 
Camlon said:
Why do girls wear make up, it costs money and is pointless? Shouldn't girls just say, I don't care how I look and be ugly. But fact is people do. You can try to change the world, but you won't be able to.

It seems to me that most people are against it, because they think it is morally wrong. However, I care more about the consequences. And if the girl get plastic surgery then she will have a better life. Is it wrong to want your child to have a better life?
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I do exactly that. I never wear make-up for anything apart from a costume. I haven't spent money on make-up since a Halloween party 3 years ago. But somehow, not wearing make-up doesn't seem to make people think I'm ugly.

And here's the other thing. While it's true there is social pressure, at the end of the day, the woman CHOOSES to wear make-up. I choose not to. And for the most part, it doesn't really seem to matter to anyone.

A child DOES NOT CHOOSE to go through excruciating surgery. If the child becomes an adult and decides to do that, be my guest. But the consent issue here is huge. And the fact is that the message this child's parents are sending it that the child should be ashamed of how they look. Make-up sends the same message, but you can wash make-up off. You can't get your face back once it's been cut up.

There is no evidence she will have a better life. People can still tell she has Downs (see above). It does nothing. It's symbolic and shaming. And the child doesn't consent.
 
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MistressNomad said:
I do exactly that. I never wear make-up for anything apart from a costume. I haven't spent money on make-up since a Halloween party 3 years ago. But somehow, not wearing make-up doesn't seem to make people think I'm ugly.
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So do you comb your hair? Do you go to a hairdressser to cut your hair, or do you cut it yourself? What about your kids, do you care about how they look?

And here's the other thing. While it's true there is social pressure, at the end of the day, the woman CHOOSES to wear make-up. I choose not to. And for the most part, it doesn't really seem to matter to anyone.

A child DOES NOT CHOOSE to go through excruciating surgery. If the child becomes an adult and decides to do that, be my guest. But the consent issue here is huge. And the fact is that the message this child's parents are sending it that the child should be ashamed of how they look. Make-up sends the same message, but you can wash make-up off. You can't get your face back once it's been cut up.
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Parents are allowed to take decisions for their kids. Do you complain when parents pick a school for their kids, that is certinally not reversible. If parents are doing a decision that will benefit the kid greatly, then I don't see the problem.

It sends out the message that the parents care about their kid and want her/him to have a better life.


There is no evidence she will have a better life. People can still tell she has Downs (see above). It does nothing. It's symbolic and shaming. And the child doesn't consent.
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If you see above, then you will see that Downs is not the problem. Problem is their deformed faces. Naturally we are evolved to avoid humans with deformed faces. A Downs kid with a more normal face will be adorable and will be approached much more often.

We don't live in a fairytale world. So we can not expect people to behave perfect and ideal. We should focus on making our and others life as best as possible. It's pointless to suffer, because you feel that other people should behave in a different way.
 
Camlon said:
So do you comb your hair? Do you go to a hairdressser to cut your hair, or do you cut it yourself? What about your kids, do you care about how they look?
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Actually, yes I do cut my own hair. Do I brush it? Depends on how long it is. Sometimes it's short-ish and doesn't need it. Sometimes I like how it looks simply air-dried. It kinda breaks off into piecey waves, and I decide not to brush it. My kids? I don't have any - I'm childfree.

Parents are allowed to take decisions for their kids. Do you complain when parents pick a school for their kids, that is certinally not reversible. If parents are doing a decision that will benefit the kid greatly, then I don't see the problem.
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I complained about the school my parents put me in in elementary school. They looked at my reasoning, decided it had some merit, and moved me to another school. But that really doesn't compare. If a mother decided to get her 7-year-old a nose job because she didn't like the shape, do you think that would fly? Do you think that's ok? How about cutting off a kid's ear?

It sends out the message that the parents care about their kid and want her/him to have a better life.
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No, it sends the message that the parents are ashamed.

If you see above, then you will see that Downs is not the problem. Problem is their deformed faces. Naturally we are evolved to avoid humans with deformed faces. A Downs kid with a more normal face will be adorable and will be approached much more often.

We don't live in a fairytale world. So we can not expect people to behave perfect and ideal. We should focus on making our and others life as best as possible. It's pointless to suffer, because you feel that other people should behave in a different way.
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"Deformed" faces are not a medical problem. And it says something that you think that they're deformed. While Downs kids are identifiable as such, I really don't think they're deformed. They're not too far off from the realm of looking like a different race.

If you'd look at the link I posted earlier, you would see that plastic surgery DOES NOT CONCEAL that they have Downs. Independent observers couldn't tell a huge difference, even if the parents think the result was good.

I was raised to see disabled people as people. I have no trouble doing so. I don't think Downs kids are deformed, like you do. Maybe if we taught that to people we wouldn't have parents who feel a need to have their child cut open to hide what they are.
 
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DiAnna said:
Parents can and do choose elective surgeries for their children for a variety of reasons. To repair a major birth defect or condition that makes eating, speaking, walking, etc., difficult would be sensible, just as sensible as a parent who approves surgery to repair a child's heart valve or correct any major health issue. However, a full-face plastic surgery for purely cometic means on a young child would be a horrific, painful, lingering trauma that no legitimate]/b] ever would or should undertake.

I just don't understand the mindset of those who believe otherwise. :(
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My mindset is that I addressed the idea of plastic surgery for Down's Syndrome. What you are apparently responding to and addressing are posts that are not directly related to the topic. Your outrage is noted, but misplaced.
 
Camlon said:
So do you comb your hair? Do you go to a hairdressser to cut your hair, or do you cut it yourself? What about your kids, do you care about how they look?


Parents are allowed to take decisions for their kids. Do you complain when parents pick a school for their kids, that is certinally not reversible. If parents are doing a decision that will benefit the kid greatly, then I don't see the problem.

It sends out the message that the parents care about their kid and want her/him to have a better life.



If you see above, then you will see that Downs is not the problem. Problem is their deformed faces. Naturally we are evolved to avoid humans with deformed faces. A Downs kid with a more normal face will be adorable and will be approached much more often.

We don't live in a fairytale world. So we can not expect people to behave perfect and ideal. We should focus on making our and others life as best as possible. It's pointless to suffer, because you feel that other people should behave in a different way.
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DEFORMED FACES!!!! Someone show me, please, how to take this discussion and my appropriate response to this post to the Basement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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