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Plastic Surgery for Children With Down's Syndrome.

Do you support plastic surgery for children to lessen the "look" of Down's Syndrome?

  • Total voters
    22
MistressNomad said:
Actually, yes I do cut my own hair. Do I brush it? Depends on how long it is. Sometimes it's short-ish and doesn't need it. Sometimes I like how it looks simply air-dried. It kinda breaks off into piecey waves, and I decide not to brush it. My kids? I don't have any - I'm childfree.
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This may come as a suprise to you, but most people are not like you. Most people do wear make up, do brush their hair, do go to a hair dresser to cut their hair. Some people even buy really expensive clothes just to fit in. People are superficial, and they will treat what they percieve as a cute Down kid better than what they percieve as an ugly Downs kid.

If a mother decided to get her 7-year-old a nose job because she didn't like the shape, do you think that would fly? Do you think that's ok? How about cutting off a kid's ear?
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If the nose is disfigured, then yes. If the kid looks normal, then no!


No, it sends the message that the parents are ashamed.
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This all depends on how you look at it. If I had a huge lump on the side of my face, I would be happy if my parents removed it. I actually look at it the other way. If they can afford it, but don't do it. I don't think they care about me.

"Deformed" faces are not a medical problem. And it says something that you think that they're deformed. While Downs kids are identifiable as such, I really don't think they're deformed. They're not too far off from the realm of looking like a different race.
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A huge lump on the side of my face is not a medical problem either. And yes I think they are deformed, and so do 99% of the population even though they may not admit it. Downs kids don't just look different. If that was the case, we would see more Downs porn, because a substantial amount of people would prefer it.

They are not a different race. They are humans with an extra chromosome.

If you'd look at the link I posted earlier, you would see that plastic surgery DOES NOT CONCEAL that they have Downs. Independent observers couldn't tell a huge difference, even if the parents think the result was good.

I was raised to see disabled people as people. I have no trouble doing so. I don't think Downs kids are deformed, like you do. Maybe if we taught that to people we wouldn't have parents who feel a need to have their child cut open to hide what they are
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I am not politically correct, and political correctness does not make people different. Just because they are afraid of saying that Downs people have deformed faces, doesn't make them more accepting. Think about Sweden, one of the most politically correct countries in the world. At least toward immigration. Does that make Swedes less racist? No, it doesn't. Sweden has about 6% nonwhite people and most of them live in areas with majority nonwhite people and they are not able to get jobs or Swedish friends.

I said that the point was not to hide that they have Downs. the point is to make them look better, so they can have a better life. You however, put your own morals above downs people. I have heard it so many times, people with Downs just want to be treated as equals and make normal friends. One of the major reason they are not treated as equals is due to how they look. It's not due to them having Downs in itself, so there is no reason to hide that they have Downs.

So what is so horrible with some parents wanting their child to have a good life? Sure they can wait till people don't care about looks anymore. But I don't think that's going to happen in my life time.
 
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Doesn't surprise me at all. I do after all live in the world. But you know what the most common thing I hear about my naked face and my natural hair is?

"I wish I was brave enough to do that."

There is a lot of shame involved with people, especially women, doing those things. And not doing any of them doesn't make you ugly, or even all that out of step with "normal." Despite the image you may have in your mind, I don't look like some sort of roving hippie (though I went through that phase too).

If you think 99% of people are deformed, then do you think all of them should have plastic surgery?

Given that you think everyone is deformed, how would you define whether the girl's nose is "deformed" or not? Why is it not ok for her mother to make her get it changed even if it's "normal?" Many of Downs features are not that far outside normal and most of them cause no impairment in themselves. So logically, you should be against that. Except you think everyone is deformed and people should be ashamed of that.

I never said Downs kids were "just a different race." What I said is that the degree of difference in how they look seems closer to a racial difference than a deformity to me. I think it's in between those two things, but closer to racial. Real deformities give me a jolt when I see them (there, are you satisfied I'm not just being PC?). I can't help this - though I can help how I act. But seeing someone with Downs really doesn't. It's hardly a blip on my radar.

This isn't about political correctness. This is about the way you look at people. People with Downs are deformed to you, but so is everyone in the world. You're judgmental, and very encouraging of a shame-based society.

Many Swedes are quite racist, though in a different way from how it is in other places... I've met quite a few of them in my travels. But again, this isn't an argument from PC.

As I've already said, there are 2 problems.

1. The child can't consent. We don't know whether the child would rather look a different way.

2. IT DOESN'T WORK. People can still tell they have Downs.

I can prove that you're wrong about people, because you're wrong about me. People can be taught to be accepting. Everyone in my elementary was. And guess what - the disabled kids didn't get picked on. The normal kids got picked on more than they did.
 
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MistressNomad said:
Doesn't surprise me at all. I do after all live in the world. But you know what the most common thing I hear about my naked face and my natural hair is?

"I wish I was brave enough to do that."

There is a lot of shame involved with people, especially women, doing those things. And not doing any of them doesn't make you ugly, or even all that out of step with "normal." Despite the image you may have in your mind, I don't look like some sort of roving hippie (though I went through that phase too).

If you think 99% of people are deformed, then do you think all of them should have plastic surgery?

Given that you think everyone is deformed, how would you define whether the girl's nose is "deformed" or not? Why is it not ok for her mother to make her get it changed even if it's "normal?" Many of Downs features are not that far outside normal and most of them cause no impairment in themselves. So logically, you should be against that. Except you think everyone is deformed and people should be ashamed of that.

I never said Downs kids were "just a different race." What I said is that the degree of difference in how they look seems closer to a racial difference than a deformity to me. I think it's in between those two things, but closer to racial. Real deformities give me a jolt when I see them (there, are you satisfied I'm not just being PC?). I can't help this - though I can help how I act. But seeing someone with Downs really doesn't. It's hardly a blip on my radar.

This isn't about political correctness. This is about the way you look at people. People with Downs are deformed to you, but so is everyone in the world. You're judgmental, and very encouraging of a shame-based society.

Many Swedes are quite racist, though in a different way from how it is in other places... I've met quite a few of them in my travels. But again, this isn't an argument from PC.

As I've already said, there are 2 problems.

1. The child can't consent. We don't know whether the child would rather look a different way.

2. IT DOESN'T WORK. People can still tell they have Downs.

I can prove that you're wrong about people, because you're wrong about me. People can be taught to be accepting. Everyone in my elementary was. And guess what - the disabled kids didn't get picked on. The normal kids got picked on more than they did.
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Two things. First, she did not say that 99% of the population is deformed. She said 99% of the population would agree with her that children with downs syndrome are deformed. Don't go off on someone for them saying something they didn't say. Second, the link you posted was somewhat helpful but I clicked the link that stated that people didn't notice improvement. It only observed 15 patients with downs syndrome and 34 students. I do not think this is enough to conclude that it is not successful. I am still iffy on whether it should be done or not but if it improves those patient's self esteem why tell them no? All I can read is the abstract of the study but I would be interested to see the details of it. I think one study is not enough to concretely prove that Downs patients should not get plastic surgery.
 
X Factor said:
Outrage Over Parents

This is not a new story but I think the ethical issues it raises are still interesting. Could plastic surgery mean greater acceptance for a child with DS or does it actually hinder acceptance of the condition?

So, what do you think, do you support plastic surgery for children to lessen the "look" of Down's Syndrome?

Explain why or why not.
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I want to change my vote. I voted "yes." Make mine an "I don't know."

This is almost something for experts to decide, in my opinion. On the one hand, I can see that children with Downs, as they grow older and understand their condition, would like nothing more than to look like other children. I can also see that these children are pigeon-holed because of their appearance by society at large...meaning that people's interactions may reinforce their deficiency rather than play to its strengths.

On the other hand, I think that, in our enlightened world, it is somewhat of an advantage for the child/adult that others can identify them as mentally handicapped. Society on the main has different expectations for Down's children. Cuts them lots of slack, if you will. It may be easier emotionally for these children to be identified easily.

This is a hard one. What's best for the child? I don't really know. I wouldn't be quick to condemn the parents, however. That's an easy potshot to take, but I think it's undeserved.
 
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What a horrible thing to do to a child just to make him/her more "appealing" to others. Makes me angry.
 
I have no idea what to put here...Not having a downs child I cant really know how I would react. I lean towards no I wouldnt do it...but who knows unless your child is in that position and you know better first hand.
 
I can't deny the option for those who would want to do it, but I am not one of those who supports many of the "medical" viewpoints of disability. I find society's preference for such a viewpoint usually impacting those who have the disorder or disability and who do not choose or are not able to go through those elected options. While "becoming normal" (or to whatever degree it is possible) is usually seen as an attractive option, it is not a one-way street. It also contains some serious consequences, some of which are apart of the eternal questions of the human condition. In all honesty, this is one example of one of the most important ethical and philosophical issues surrounding disability, in my view.
 
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Fiddytree said:
I can't deny the option for those who would want to do it, but I am not one of those who supports many of the "medical" viewpoints of disability. I find society's preference for such a viewpoint usually impacting those who have the disorder or disability and who do not choose or are not able to go through those elected options. While "becoming normal" (or to whatever degree it is possible) is usually seen as an attractive option, it is not a one-way street. It also contains some serious consequences, some of which are apart of the eternal questions of the human condition. In all honesty, this is one example of one of the most important ethical and philosophical issues surrounding disability, in my view.
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What consequences, Fiddy?
 
Well, under a medical viewpoint, it's something you're afflicted with, and you view it as such, with removal or lessening being the key. On the other hand, this is what you were born with (or for other disabilities, something that could have developed at another time), usually impacting how you view yourself, how others view you, how you view others with the same issue. For some, they are able to view it as simply something they would remove if given the chance....for others, it's a lot more personal than that. Are we desirable, is what I am doing making me more desirable, should we be doing this to make ourselves desirable, am I going to be happier? What's going to happen to those of us left behind? These are questions that are very serious. The argument is not simply one of possible increasing opportunity from society. When the outside community at large begins to adopt the idea that an "attractive" child with "Downs" is better than the "ugly" one, that places a judgment on the rest of them, including the God or nature that created this human being. The rest are the lessers, the undesirable "others."

Then, for the ultimate negative idea (which means I do not automatically view it in this lens), there is the incredibly sordid history of eugenics for people with disabilities.

There was an impressive documentary about the deaf community and cochlear implants called "Sound of Fury." The deaf community is similar to the blind community in that there is a bit of a different viewpoint of some of these issues, but much of the insight toward their dispute can be carried over into other areas. It is hard to stress enough that disability can impact your identity in way that few other things can, and as such, what is seen as a deficit, can be something that can be strongly fought to maintain, because it is apart of them and so personal that to alter that is not only a crime against God, but a crime against their selves.

Trusting these things to "experts" is quite dangerous, just as it was centuries or even a short time ago.
 
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Fiddytree said:
Well, under a medical viewpoint, it's something you're afflicted with, and you view it as such, with removal or lessening being the key. On the other hand, this is what you were born with (or for other disabilities, something that could have developed at another time), usually impacting how you view yourself, how others view you, how you view others with the same issue. For some, they are able to view it as simply something they would remove if given the chance....for others, it's a lot more personal than that. Are we desirable, is what I am doing making me more desirable, should we be doing this to make ourselves desirable, am I going to be happier? What's going to happen to those of us left behind? These are questions that are very serious.

Then, for the ultimate negative idea (which means I do not automatically view it in this lens), there is the incredibly sordid history of eugenics for people with disabilities.

There was an impressive documentary about the deaf community and cochlear implants called "Sound of Fury." The deaf community is similar to the blind community in that there is a bit of a different viewpoint of some of these issues, but much of the insight toward their dispute can be carried over into other areas. It is hard to stress enough that disability can impact your identity in way that few other things can, and as such, what is seen as a deficit, can be something that can be strongly fought to maintain, because it is apart of them and so personal that to alter that is not only a crime against God, but a crime against their selves.
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I saw that. I remember the little girl who said she didn't want the implants. She seemed heavily influence by her parents to me, like she just wanted to make them happy. I guess I don't understand really though, why someone would choose to be deaf (or choose it for their kids) if they didn't have to be. I can see rallying around your disability and trying to make it a positive if you have no choice but to live with it. But who would choose to remain blind or deaf over having sight and hearing?
 
X Factor said:
I saw that. I remember the little girl who said she didn't want the implants. She seemed heavily influence by her parents to me, like she just wanted to make them happy. I guess I don't understand really though, why someone would choose to be deaf (or choose it for their kids) if they didn't have to be. I can see rallying around your disability and trying to make it a positive if you have no choice but to live with it. But who would choose to remain blind or deaf over having sight and hearing?
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There is a follow-up documentary on the family. They end up getting the implants for themselves. Their lives are just fine afterwards, but the question remains. The question for those two communities is just a more organized version of an argument that would likely come about if the opportunity expanded to other disabilities.

If you were to ask me if I could get rid of my own disability (not in the aforementioned categories), I would hesitate, but in the end likely say no. It is not necessarily living with just impediments, it can also mean accepting or loving the possible benefits that seemed to come from it-the adaptations or perhaps strengths that were stronger than other peoples'. This is not even dealing with the identity it helped give me (for the better, I think), nor to the viewpoint I have with it regarding man and his ability to become more like God than he possibly deserves.
 
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I dont support it even though I can understand the paren'ts thoughts and feelings behind the decision. If the motion goes from "children" to "adults", then I fully support it, but parents can't make the fullest decision of their child, no matter how well the parent knows the child
 
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