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Thread: Is Donald Trump the result of a postmodern world?

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    Re: Is Donald Trump the result of a postmodern world?

    Part of the Postmodernist movement was with the notions of good and evil. The traditional or modern superhero was genuinely good and the bad guys were unquestionably bad. The postmodern superhero was not purely good and same with the bad guys. A good example of this was Spiderman 2, with Toby Maquire the one with Sandman.

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    Re: Is Donald Trump the result of a postmodern world?

    Quote Originally Posted by ataraxia View Post
    My question is more of a normative one: is there a way to say that one belief is better than the other? A postmodernist would argue that it does not. Do you subscribe to this view?
    I functionally subscribe to moral relativism

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    Re: Is Donald Trump the result of a postmodern world?

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    I don’t know how America is going to get better. I know some posters are very positive about Trump leaving in the GOP changing, and will get a different president eventually. However I’m worried the base whenever change, and I worry the next conservative president could be just as bad if worse than Trump.
    That’s true. The problem is more than just Trump. Trump is just a manifestation of the problem. When he’s gone, they are going to pick some other stable genius- maybe Sarah Palin next time?

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    Re: Is Donald Trump the result of a postmodern world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drawdown View Post
    Apparently this criticism of Obama carries some special weight for you.





    It is obviously okay for the people who might do it.
    Interesting how to choose to spin the point on hypocrisy.
    No one needs a war more than a politician who is being impeached

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    Re: Is Donald Trump the result of a postmodern world?

    Quote Originally Posted by ataraxia View Post
    Is Donald Trump the result of a postmodern world?
    No, he is the result of weak Dems not fighting back hard enough starting all the way back in the 1970's when The Powell Memo was released. Trump is the culmination of forty plus years of systematic destruction of democratic norms and values, with the help of a weak and compliant bunch of corporate establishment Dems who could do nothing more than hang their head in shame and spend their time trying to prove they are just as Right wing as the Republicans.

    But that's also the risk one runs when one is a purity pony on the Left, too.
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    It IS NOT the job of the United States government to protect reporters overseas. It IS the job the United States government to preserve the freedom of the press here in the US.

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    Re: Is Donald Trump the result of a postmodern world?

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMOSS View Post
    Interesting how to choose to spin the point on hypocrisy.
    It would only be hypocrisy to criticize wearing a tan suit to a press conference if the critic themselves also wore a tan suit to press conferences.

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    Re: Is Donald Trump the result of a postmodern world?

    Perhaps we are living in a simulation and the Great Programmer arranged for Trump to be elected because that would be an entertaining game for his console.
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    Re: Is Donald Trump the result of a postmodern world?

    Quote Originally Posted by ataraxia View Post
    Donald Trump has challenged the unanimous consensus of every single scientific organization on the entire planet on climate change, calling it instead a "Chinese hoax." Well, that's certainly a different narrative.
    While it is true that he made comments to this effect, this kind of claim does not shock me as exceptional in the context of American politics. It is perhaps unfortunate, but it is nothing new under the sun.

    Quote Originally Posted by ataraxia View Post
    He has turned the narrative of America as the land of immigrants into a narrative of America hostile to immigrants.
    Here I think you are not being as charitable as you could be toward his views on immigration. There is a reason why Republicans insist on the legality of the immigration status and although your personal inclination is probably to assume this is xenophobia, you could interpret this in a different light. Conservatives tend to like sharp boundaries between things and people. Here, I think the relevant boundary is a legal boundary: you are welcome to come, as long as you do it legally. Now, you can make the case that, maybe, the laws in place are not sufficiently permissive, or that the position of Republicans on immigrants who came in illegally and now even have a family is not sufficiently generous. That would be a fair critique, but that's different from saying they're hostile to immigration. I think it's an unfair assessment -- and I think it's especially dangerous to let yourself say that because, as a liberal, you have clear motivations to paint some or all of them as bad people. I often come down the same way on conservatives who exaggerate, by the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by ataraxia View Post
    He tells foreign leaders of allied countries that he will let them fall to the wolves if they don't help him defeat his political rivals here at home, and then looks incredulous when he is told that may not be appropriate, if not just downright illegal.
    Let me rephrase that slightly differently. You side with Democrats and you are wondering why the person you are accusing does not share your conviction that their behavior is wrong? The man may look incredulous to you and that might sound curious, but that is only becomes you come at the problem from a peculiar angle. Normal human beings generally believe in their own integrity. You may be right, or you may be wrong, but that's not a surprising reaction.

    As for the accusation itself, if I am not mistaken, the other party involved in the presumed quid pro quo denied the allegations. You may believe that they lied, but that makes it a matter of contention to be debated. If you wanted to pick a more solid claim, you should have picked the other accusation. Some choices made by the Trump administration duing the investigation can be construed as obstruction of Congress. Conservatives could point out that Congress did not seek to force the White House into compliance by taking some of the disputes over procedures to court. Still, I think it is a less contentious claim.

    For the broader picture, I don't think anything that has happened so far regarding the impeachment investigation or the impeachment vote is credible because it is a one-sided effort. People will make idiotic logical errors due related to motivated reasoning, so imagine what happens with something like that. The whole thing is a farce and coming from someone like me who (1) is on the left and (2) really dislikes Trump's attitudes and comments, it should say a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by ataraxia View Post
    But his stories stick. People are in shock when you say these may not be truth. Is this because we as a postmodern country have finally taken Nietzsche's advice to heart on the nature of truth?
    If I was to look through major news outlets and their publication for every day since Donald Trump won the election, I would be ready to bet you 100$ that I could not find a single day where no one ran a story that threw insult at Donald Trump. I'd even be disposed to restrict the definition of insults only to 6 words (racist, sexist, xenophobic, islamophobic, transphobic and bigotted) and to pick only one channel and one journal (New York Times and MSNBC).

    That is what the vast majority of Americans read, hear and see everyday: Orange mad bad. And you think that, somehow, it's Trump that is involved in crafting grand deluded narratives that he forces down the throat of the benighted masses -- and obviously, you know better. If you try to explain what is going on with conservatives as a liberal and your explanation starts venturing into the terroritory of you're smart, informed, good and they're stupid, misinformed and bad... Chances are, that's politically motivated.
    All people who oppose free speech are trying to sell you snake oil. There is absolutely no exception to this rule.

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    Re: Is Donald Trump the result of a postmodern world?

    Quote Originally Posted by ataraxia View Post
    Is this because we as a postmodern country have finally taken Nietzsche's advice to heart on the nature of truth?
    Postmodern philosophy was built through the works of figures such as Michel Foucault and Jacques Derrida. The defining feature of their analysis rests on the conceptual centrality of the notion of power: they consider that relationships of power express themselves in every aspect of life, even down to how a problem is framed. Although there is something to the idea that disputes across coalitions of people seen as disputes over something like influence and status, it is not an obviously appropriate way to look at things.

    Postmodern philosophy is an extensively convoluted way to demand to be taken seriously irrespective of the congruence of your claims or actions with any standard whatsoever. In a supreme historical irony, apparently no one noticed they basically moved Marx into the social sphere alongside the same kind of epistemic leap. Marx forced everyone into the consciousness of their own class, except to some extent for communists who could somehow see through the veil cast over their sight by their position in the production process. It is also those people who sustained the idea that science had to be tainted by class interests, that it had to be bourgeois science thereby essentially alleviating the need to address criticism. All criticism is analyzed functionally, as a structural response meant to sustain the exploitation and oppression... Does that sound familiar?*It does, but that never came out of the mouth of a conservative. It's not that they do not also use linguistic tricks of their own to avoid being held accountable; they just use different ones.

    For reference, if someone makes a claim you cannot attack, it should sound an alarm.


    Normal people do not talk like that. People are not cynical about the value of physics because of very abstract concerns over epistemology and the only time they run into the frankly idiotic presumption that relationships are driven either primarily or only by power struggles between identity groups is when they run into a wealthy or upper-middle-class prick who tries to explain to them they're racist because they didn't follow the latest fashion trends in euphemism. They didn't get the fall catalogue that would have warned them against the linguistic faux pas according to a Manhattan socialite who will also take a minute to scorn them about their privilege as a car mechanic.

    This kind of narrative is part of the game some Democrats are trying to play right now. It's very dangerous game -- and I'd say Clinton lost 2016 over it.
    All people who oppose free speech are trying to sell you snake oil. There is absolutely no exception to this rule.

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    Re: Is Donald Trump the result of a postmodern world?

    Survey: Most Scientists Skeptical of Global Warming Crisis
    Published on December 18, 2016


    Just 36% of scientists fit the “Comply with Kyoto” model. The scientists in this group “express the strong belief that climate change is happening, that it is not a normal cycle of nature, and humans are the main or central cause.”

    24% of the scientists follow the “Nature Is Overwhelming” model. They believe that changes to the climate are natural, normal cycles of the Earth. “They strongly disagree that climate change poses any significant public risk and see no impact on their personal lives.”

    17% of the scientists “diagnose climate change as both human- and naturally caused. ‘Fatalists’ consider climate change to be a smaller public risk with little impact on their personal life. These scientists are likely to ask, “How can anyone take action if research is biased?”

    10% of scientists fit the “Economic Responsibility” model. These scientists “diagnose climate change as being natural or human caused.” More than any other group, they underscore that the ‘real’ cause of climate change is unknown as nature is forever changing and uncontrollable. they point to the harm the Kyoto Protocol and all regulation will do to the economy.”

    5% percent of the scientists fit the “Regulation Activists” model. These scientists “diagnose climate change as being both human- and naturally caused, posing a moderate public risk, with only slight impact on their personal life.” Moreover, “They are also skeptical with regard to the scientific debate being settled and are the most indecisive whether IPCC modeling is accurate.”

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