Quag and the Angel: a dialogue

Angel · Oct 5, 2019

Quag and the Angel: a dialogue

Quag and Angel have mutually agreed to meet here in the Philosophy forum to discuss their philosophical differences in their proper place, instead of derailing threads in other forums. (See the quoted exchange at the bottom of this thread starter.) All members of DP are invited to join them in this enterprise.

Among the topics to be discussed are:

1. logic and argument
2. morality
3. the existence of God

All philosophy begins with a question. Following Quag then (See his post below), the first question addressed in this thread is:

What is a belief and what is its role in argument?

The Agreement

Quag said:
I have no idea which of your failures you wish to debate.
is it your failure to comprehend an argument whose premise is a belief results in a conclusion that is nothing roe tha a belief?
Is it your failure to comprehend that morals are subjective?
Is it your failed attempts to "prove" God exists?
iIs it something else?
I guess it doesn't really matter start the thread maybe you will finally learn something

Angel said:
I'll take that as a Yes then. We can use the list in this quoted post of yours in the OP.
Are you okay with the title: "Quag and the Angel: a dialogue"?

Quag said:
Why would I have complaint over a thread title?

Angel said:
So that's a nod to the thread title. Good. Just making a record of the background for the thread. And no objection to using your list in the OP, yes?

Quag said:
No objections.

OldFatGuy · Oct 5, 2019

Unfortunately, this will go nowhere fast.

Quag · Oct 5, 2019

Ok get started

Angel · Oct 5, 2019

Quag said:
Ok get started

We got started, Quag. We have a question. Would you prefer that I answer it first? I was deferring to you out of courtesy.

Angel · Oct 5, 2019

OldFatGuy said:
Unfortunately, this will go nowhere fast.

I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

Angel · Oct 6, 2019

Quag · Oct 6, 2019

Angel said:
We got started, Quag. We have a question. Would you prefer that I answer it first? I was deferring to you out of courtesy.

2nd line in your first quote of me s the 2nd part of yru question
as to the first

something believed; an opinion or conviction:
a belief that the earth is flat.

confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof:
a statement unworthy of belief.

Belief | Definition of Belief at Dictionary.com

Angel · Oct 6, 2019

Quag said:
2nd line in your first quote of me s the 2nd part of yru question
as to the first

The second line in my first quote of you reads:

is it your failure to comprehend an argument whose premise is a belief results in a conclusion that is nothing roe tha a belief?

This is the source of the question we asked, not the answer. And it is about me, about my failure to understand that belief yields only belief.
This quoted line of yours simply states that belief yields only belief in argument.

And the dictionary definition you cite is far from philosophically acute.

Allow me to offer this on belief:

A belief, in the first instance, is the mental acceptance of a proposition, a proposition being the meaning of a statement in some natural language.
A belief, in the second instance, is the accepted proposition itself, as stated in some natural language.

As to its role in argument, while you may be correct that belief yields belief, this is not a shortcoming -- or do you have an argument to the contrary? -- and in point of fact the role of belief in argument is essential as it provides the content of argument.

Quag · Oct 6, 2019

Angel said:
The second line in my first quote of you reads:

This is the source of the question we asked, not the answer. And it is about me, about my failure to understand that belief yields only belief.
This quoted line of yours simply states that belief yields only belief in argument.

And the dictionary definition you cite is far from philosophically acute.

Allow me to offer this on belief:

A belief, in the first instance, is the mental acceptance of a proposition, a proposition being the meaning of a statement in some natural language.
A belief, in the second instance, is the accepted proposition itself, as stated in some natural language.

As to its role in argument, while you may be correct that belief yields belief, this is not a shortcoming -- or do you have an argument to the contrary? -- and in point of fact the role of belief in argument is essential as it provides the content of argument.

I will stick to my definition of belief which is really nothing more than opinion
Any argument based on a belief or opinion results in a conclusion that is a belief or opinion
This is LOGIC
Unless you can prove the premise as true the conclusion cannot be taken as true.
Example If I give you directions from Parliament to Albert Hall the directions may be perfectly in line but If it is just belief on my part that you are actually at Parliament when in fact you are in Paris at the Eiffel tower the directions will fail to get you to Albert Hall.

Angel · Oct 6, 2019

Quag said:
I will stick to my definition of belief which is really nothing more than opinion
Any argument based on a belief or opinion results in a conclusion that is a belief or opinion
This is LOGIC
Unless you can prove the premise as true the conclusion cannot be taken as true.
Example If I give you directions from Parliament to Albert Hall the directions may be perfectly in line but If it is just belief on my part that you are actually at Parliament when in fact you are in Paris at the Eiffel tower the directions will fail to get you to Albert Hall.

If you're "sticking" to one of the dictionary definitions of "belief," then we need an argument from you as to why. Then we will need a definition of "opinion" from you.

Also, you introduce something new in this post: truth. We need to unpack that concept.

Finally, with this assertion:

Unless you can prove the premise as true the conclusion cannot be taken as true.

You seem to be asking for another argument for every premise of the argument in question. Please clarify what you mean by "prove."

PTF · Oct 6, 2019

Quag said:
I will stick to my definition of belief which is really nothing more than opinion
Any argument based on a belief or opinion results in a conclusion that is a belief or opinion
This is LOGIC
Unless you can prove the premise as true the conclusion cannot be taken as true.
Example If I give you directions from Parliament to Albert Hall the directions may be perfectly in line but If it is just belief on my part that you are actually at Parliament when in fact you are in Paris at the Eiffel tower the directions will fail to get you to Albert Hall.

Irrelevant.
Matter of fact one who believes God exists such as myself would be considered " logical ".

RAMOSS · Oct 6, 2019

PTF said:
Irrelevant.
Matter of fact one who believes God exists such as myself would be considered " logical ".

Can you break down your logic into a formal syllogism?

Angel · Oct 7, 2019

PTF said:
Irrelevant.
Matter of fact one who believes God exists such as myself would be considered " logical ".

RAMOSS said:
Can you break down your logic into a formal syllogism?

Something along these lines perhaps:

The world without explanation is absurdity.
Absurdity is illogical.
Therefore, the world without explanation is illogical.

But the world is logical.
The logic of the world implies explanation.
Therefore, the world has an explanation.

But the only explanation of the world is God.
The world has an explanation.
Therefore, God is the explanation of the world.

God is the explanation of the world.
If the world exists, then the explanation of the world exists.
The world exists.
Therefore, God exists.

Quag · Oct 8, 2019

Angel said:
If you're "sticking" to one of the dictionary definitions of "belief," then we need an argument from you as to why. Then we will need a definition of "opinion" from you.

The definition comes from the dictionary and is thus the generally accepted one, it is also the one I am using when I point out the reason your arguments fail, they are all based on belief
As to the definition of opinion

1 a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.

2 a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.

Basically it is a synonym for belief in this case

Also, you introduce something new in this post: truth. We need to unpack that concept.

Finally, with this assertion:

You seem to be asking for another argument for every premise of the argument in question. Please clarify what you mean by "prove."

Most definitely you cannot prove or assert as true or consider an argument to have even accomplished anything at all if the premise(s) is/are just beliefs/opinions
So yeah you must give actual reasons to accept the premises that are not mere beliefs/opinions

Quag · Oct 8, 2019

PTF said:
Irrelevant.
Matter of fact one who believes God exists such as myself would be considered " logical ".

Believing in God doesn't make on logical or illogical any more than not believing in God makes one logical or illogical

Quag · Oct 8, 2019

Angel said:
Something along these lines perhaps:

The world without explanation is absurdity.
Absurdity is illogical.
Therefore, the world without explanation is illogical.

But the world is logical.
The logic of the world implies explanation.
Therefore, the world has an explanation.

But the only explanation of the world is God.
The world has an explanation.
Therefore, God is the explanation of the world.

God is the explanation of the world.
If the world exists, then the explanation of the world exists.
The world exists.
Therefore, God exists.

Same problem as all your other arguments just a bunch of unproven premises based on beleif

Angel · Oct 8, 2019

Quag said:
Same problem as all your other arguments just a bunch of unproven premises based on beleif

We haven't gotten past the definition of "belief" yet, Quag. You were about to tell us why you prefer to "stick with" one of the dictionary meanings you found than accept the traditional meaning of "belief" from philosophy, which I offered, for the purposes of a philosophical discussion.

Quag · Oct 8, 2019

Angel said:
We haven't gotten past the definition of "belief" yet, Quag. You were about to tell us why you prefer to "stick with" one of the dictionary meanings you found than accept the traditional meaning of "belief" from philosophy, which I offered, for the purposes of a philosophical discussion.

See post #14

Angel · Oct 8, 2019

Quag said:
See post #14

I saw post #14. There you tell us "belief" and "opinion" are synonyms, and you define "belief" as "opinion" and "opinion" as "belief" -- yes, I saw that. But the question is what reason or reasons do you have for preferring, for the purposes of a philosophical discussion, a circular and vague definition in general use to the nuanced and clear definition used in philosophy?

Angel · Oct 8, 2019

Quag said:
Believing in God doesn't make on logical or illogical any more than not believing in God makes one logical or illogical

Quag said:
Same problem as all your other arguments just a bunch of unproven premises based on beleif

These assertions are premature, Quag. They must await the discussion of "belief," which we have just begun.

Angel · Oct 8, 2019

Quag said:
...Most definitely you cannot prove or assert as true or consider an argument to have even accomplished anything at all if the premise(s) is/are just beliefs/opinions
So yeah you must give actual reasons to accept the premises that are not mere beliefs/opinions

Setting aside the question of the meaning of "belief," which we have just begun to discuss, your view of argument as requiring an argument for every premise is untenable -- it leads to an infinite regress and makes argument an impossibility.

Quag · Oct 8, 2019

Angel said:
I saw post #14. There you tell us "belief" and "opinion" are synonyms, and you define "belief" as "opinion" and "opinion" as "belief" -- yes, I saw that. But the question is what reason or reasons do you have for preferring, for the purposes of a philosophical discussion, a circular and vague definition in general use to the nuanced and clear definition used in philosophy?

They are neither vague nor circular unless you are referring to opinion/belief being synonyms as circular.
As to the reason I gave it in post #14 perhaps you missed it

it is also the one I am using when I point out the reason your arguments fail, they are all based on belief

Quag · Oct 8, 2019

Angel said:
These assertions are premature, Quag. They must await the discussion of "belief," which we have just begun.

If it was premature n your opinion then you liking of PTFs post was premature and you should remove it

Quag · Oct 8, 2019

Angel said:
Setting aside the question of the meaning of "belief," which we have just begun to discuss, your view of argument as requiring an argument for every premise is untenable -- it leads to an infinite regress and makes argument an impossibility.

Not at all.
We need not prove the value of a number that is used in a math equation because the definition is known
We need not prove whether or not humans can procreate as that is known. (specific humans yues but humans as a species no)

etc etc etc..

Angel · Oct 8, 2019

Quag said:
If it was premature n your opinion then you liking of PTFs post was premature and you should remove it

Why? I don't follow your point. Please explain.