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Thread: Christ's philosophy, and what makes him real...

  1. #21
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    Re: Christ's philosophy, and what makes him real...

    Quote Originally Posted by OlNate View Post
    I don't disagree...but it's as much of a conversation killer as calling an obese person a fat ass, when you're trying to tell them about healthy eating...hehe... I think people leap to it a little too quickly, sometimes. Not saying you, just speaking in general. It would be interesting to see what philosophical conversations would be possible if everyone simmered down on that a bit from both directions.

    But now it sounds, at least to me, like I'm lecturing you, and that's not my intention. I liked your initial post.

    So, what would a philosophical discussion around an atheist's positive perception of Christian philosophy look like?
    Well, it all starts with the Sermon on the Mount.

    And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when
    he was set down, his disciples came unto him:
    2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
    3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of
    heaven.

    4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
    5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
    6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
    7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
    8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
    9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
    10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake:
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
    11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute
    you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for
    my sake.
    12 Rejoice, and be glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for
    so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
    13 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your
    consolation.
    14 Woe unto you that are full now, for ye shall hunger. Woe unto
    you that laugh now, for ye shall mourn and weep.
    15 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you, for so
    did their fathers to the false prophets.
    http://pattonhq.com/links/uccministry/jeffbible.pdf

    The Sermon on the mount, is Jesus speaking directly about his own value system. Unlike his parables that follow, he give clear concise statements. All we have to do is look at it in objective terms. Meaning remove ourselves and our personal bias from the equation. I don't consider myself wealthy, because there are guys that own twice as many boats as me. But compared to the rest of the 7 billion in the world, I'm in the tip top of the top. Anyone that's ever owned a washing machine, by worldwide standards is wealthy.

    Keeping that in mind. It's wise to Focus on the bit about being poor in Spirit. Someone who is humble, doesn't seek accolades, or affection. Non aggressive, and Non Demanding. Someone who is "poor" in spirit, may have riches, but finds no value in them other than what good they can do with it for the benefit of others.

    The next bit that I like to focus on, is the one that applies to Modern Christianity today. Reading Lines 9 10, and 11, brings a current event to mind. Immigrants and Refugees being persecuted for righteousness sake. By certain evangelical groups and conservative Christians in the US. In Jesus' name.

    Those bold lines are prophetic and speaking directly to his followers in regards to how they should approach other people. Because the type of American that can turn away those people, is not poor in spirit.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    You remember that next time one of your precious lil protestors gets run down in the street or your precious minor aged criminal is locked in a cage and I laugh at your pleas.

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  2. #22
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    Re: Christ's philosophy, and what makes him real...

    Quote Originally Posted by <alt>doxygen View Post
    So where do you think matter came from?

    P.S. - I'm impressed that you could put this together while seriously buzzed on a Haze strain.
    I've often pondered the origin of matter, while at the same time the necessity for an origin. To grasp the concept of infinity, to have a real understanding of it. You have to think about time.

    It doesn't end in any direction. And there are more directions than back and forward. It is Matter that keeps us locked in these three dimensions and in the direction in time we are travelling. So the concept of time as we know it, has only existed as long as there has been matter.

    The concept of time doesn't exist on the quantum level, everything is all at once like a giant tapestry. Infinity. All possibilities, all permutations, all. I like to visualize it like the quantum level is the pattern that projects The Multiverse into being.

    It seems chaotic to us, much like a working engine would seem chaotic to a squirrel caught in it.

    Short answer, it's always existed on this level of reality. Everything has always existed. Right now, your great great great great great great grandchildren exist. As well as the rodent that survived the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs, we all evolved from.

    It all exists at once.

    On quantum scale, this projection could be a momentary roll of the dice and everything came into being at the moment I hit save changes. As time travels in all directions, as soon as the Universe came into at a particular moment, all moments came into being at once.

    There is no beginning. There is no end. There just is...

    And we could blink out, in a moment. Having still lived our full lives. And all time being accounted for, for billions of years. Just a flash. Like a light switch on and off.

    And because of life, the light switch is on. It's been demonstrated that perceiving the quantum level changes it. Life exists on some form on the quantum level, and is able to alter the pattern.

    Maybe even break the laws of physics.
    Last edited by ThoughtEx.; 01-19-19 at 11:51 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    You remember that next time one of your precious lil protestors gets run down in the street or your precious minor aged criminal is locked in a cage and I laugh at your pleas.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

  3. #23
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    Re: Christ's philosophy, and what makes him real...

    Quote Originally Posted by ThoughtEx. View Post
    It seems, you've started to study Roman influence on Christianity, but only took a glance at it in a much larger course.

    https://oyc.yale.edu/history/hist-210/lecture-1

    It was more Rome adopted Christianity to jump ahead of the cult following that was growing and threatening their ability to levy troops. No troops, no war, no new riches to add to the treasury. Etc. And so forth.

    It's a long course, and it's Yale, so it's rather advanced, but it's a real look at that period in history.
    If Ceasar had not crossed the Rubicon, the Empire would have fallen far sooner. At least, that was my distinct impression after working my way through Gibbon and a bunch of other works. (He always gets blamed for destroying the republic, but the republic was effectively dead at least 100 years beforehand. The Patrician-Plebian divides were growing apace. I don't see much reason to think it could have lasted as a republic that much longer). Without imperial control, Rome would have had a lot tougher time holding onto territory and keeping the various Goths, Ostrogoths, Sycthians, etc., at bay. I suspect it'd have fallen far sooner, perhaps even before establishing a solid eastern section.

    And if the Empire had fallen far sooner (I'd guesstimate maybe 100 AD), there's a good chance that Christianity would not have spread anywhere near as widely, and thus, any "Jesus" - historical or imagined - would not have nearly as much impact.

    It's a fair point.





    Quote Originally Posted by ThoughtEx. View Post
    It was more Rome adopted Christianity to jump ahead of the cult following that was growing and threatening their ability to levy troops. No troops, no war, no new riches to add to the treasury. Etc. And so forth.
    Well, not just that. Pagan-Christian strife between citizens was its own problem, as well. But yes, it was a political move. (ie, so too was the Council of Nicea and the decision to side with Athanasius).
    Last edited by Mr Person; 01-24-19 at 04:46 PM.

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    Re: Christ's philosophy, and what makes him real...

    Quote Originally Posted by ThoughtEx. View Post

    The next bit that I like to focus on, is the one that applies to Modern Christianity today. Reading Lines 9 10, and 11, brings a current event to mind. Immigrants and Refugees being persecuted for righteousness sake. By certain evangelical groups and conservative Christians in the US. In Jesus' name.
    Immigrants aren't the problem. ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS who are breaking our laws are the problem. That's not being righteous.

    "Would Jesus approve of illegals breaking American laws by entering America in the first Place? Would Jesus approve of the liberals bankrupting America when providing illegal aliens with trillions of dollars in benefits, some of which arenít even available to American citizens or our beloved Veterans? Would Jesus approve of the mayhem caused by illegal alien criminal activity: murders, robberies, rapes, DWI manslaughter, etc.? And where does it say in the Bible that Jesus wonít love and bless illegal immigrants if they stay in Mexico? Would Jesus approve of illegal sanctuary cities such as San Francisco, where a beautiful young lady by the name of Kate Steinle was murdered by an illegal alien who had amassed numerous felony convictions? I donít think so. God created borders in the Old Testament, and he did that for a reason, so that tribes and nations would know the limits of their boundaries. And it doesnít seem proper for tens of millions of illegal aliens wanting to turn America into the same kind of third world Hell-hole from which they came." - Righterreport.com)

    Rabbi Aryeh Spero put it this way:

    ďNor did the Bible request that the decency we extend to strangers result in national suicide. It never encouraged a virtual open-border situation where the host country is overrun and loses its indigenous culture, suspends its laws, invites disarray, or forfeits its ability to flourish as a unique and sovereign entity.Ē
    "Progressives aren't really progressive. They're regressive, all the way back to Sodom and Gomorrah." - author unknown

  5. #25
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    Re: Christ's philosophy, and what makes him real...

    Quote Originally Posted by Logicman View Post
    Immigrants aren't the problem. ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS who are breaking our laws are the problem. That's not being righteous.

    "Would Jesus approve of illegals breaking American laws by entering America in the first Place? Would Jesus approve of the liberals bankrupting America when providing illegal aliens with trillions of dollars in benefits, some of which aren’t even available to American citizens or our beloved Veterans? Would Jesus approve of the mayhem caused by illegal alien criminal activity: murders, robberies, rapes, DWI manslaughter, etc.? And where does it say in the Bible that Jesus won’t love and bless illegal immigrants if they stay in Mexico? Would Jesus approve of illegal sanctuary cities such as San Francisco, where a beautiful young lady by the name of Kate Steinle was murdered by an illegal alien who had amassed numerous felony convictions? I don’t think so. God created borders in the Old Testament, and he did that for a reason, so that tribes and nations would know the limits of their boundaries. And it doesn’t seem proper for tens of millions of illegal aliens wanting to turn America into the same kind of third world Hell-hole from which they came." - Righterreport.com)

    Rabbi Aryeh Spero put it this way:

    “Nor did the Bible request that the decency we extend to strangers result in national suicide. It never encouraged a virtual open-border situation where the host country is overrun and loses its indigenous culture, suspends its laws, invites disarray, or forfeits its ability to flourish as a unique and sovereign entity.”
    This is not a discussion of the Bible, never will be...

    This is the philosophy and underlying morality of Jesus' philosophy.

    All of your questions about what Jesus would support concerning immigrants, rests on false assumptions and quite frankly racism. You contribution to this thread so far is a joke.

    Let me help you, either demonstrate that Jesus' personal philosophy does those things by breaking down his sermon and parables, or go start another thread more in line with what your imaginary friend stands for...
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    You remember that next time one of your precious lil protestors gets run down in the street or your precious minor aged criminal is locked in a cage and I laugh at your pleas.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

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    Re: Christ's philosophy, and what makes him real...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Person View Post
    If Ceasar had not crossed the Rubicon, the Empire would have fallen far sooner. At least, that was my distinct impression after working my way through Gibbon and a bunch of other works. (He always gets blamed for destroying the republic, but the republic was effectively dead at least 100 years beforehand. The Patrician-Plebian divides were growing apace. I don't see much reason to think it could have lasted as a republic that much longer). Without imperial control, Rome would have had a lot tougher time holding onto territory and keeping the various Goths, Ostrogoths, Sycthians, etc., at bay. I suspect it'd have fallen far sooner, perhaps even before establishing a solid eastern section.

    And if the Empire had fallen far sooner (I'd guesstimate maybe 100 AD), there's a good chance that Christianity would not have spread anywhere near as widely, and thus, any "Jesus" - historical or imagined - would not have nearly as much impact.

    It's a fair point.







    Well, not just that. Pagan-Christian strife between citizens was its own problem, as well. But yes, it was a political move. (ie, so too was the Council of Nicea and the decision to side with Athanasius).
    The Republic was indeed in trouble, it was suffering from the same ailments our own republic is suffering from. An elite class of nobility usurping wealth and influence from the institutions that govern the Republic.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    You remember that next time one of your precious lil protestors gets run down in the street or your precious minor aged criminal is locked in a cage and I laugh at your pleas.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

  7. #27
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    Re: Christ's philosophy, and what makes him real...

    Quote Originally Posted by ThoughtEx. View Post
    This is not a discussion of the Bible, never will be...

    This is the philosophy and underlying morality of Jesus' philosophy.

    All of your questions about what Jesus would support concerning immigrants, rests on false assumptions and quite frankly racism. You contribution to this thread so far is a joke.

    Let me help you, either demonstrate that Jesus' personal philosophy does those things by breaking down his sermon and parables, or go start another thread more in line with what your imaginary friend stands for...
    Racism my butt. You must be a liberal or at least think like one. Because you guys always play the racism card, and most of the time you're wrong.
    "Progressives aren't really progressive. They're regressive, all the way back to Sodom and Gomorrah." - author unknown

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    Re: Christ's philosophy, and what makes him real...

    Quote Originally Posted by Logicman View Post
    Racism my butt. You must be a liberal or at least think like one. Because you guys always play the racism card, and most of the time you're wrong.
    You're using racist dog whistles that have been proven false to everyone but racist people.

    IE. When facts are presented and you still believe a certain thing, it's not because it's true, it's because you're biased. IE racism. I get, that you can't admit it. But, damn, don't act like it's not obvious to just about anyone that can read above a third grade level.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    You remember that next time one of your precious lil protestors gets run down in the street or your precious minor aged criminal is locked in a cage and I laugh at your pleas.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

  9. #29
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    Re: Christ's philosophy, and what makes him real...

    Quote Originally Posted by ThoughtEx. View Post
    You're using racist dog whistles that have been proven false to everyone but racist people.

    IE. When facts are presented and you still believe a certain thing, it's not because it's true, it's because you're biased. IE racism. I get, that you can't admit it. But, damn, don't act like it's not obvious to just about anyone that can read above a third grade level.
    Take your knee-jerk, jack-legged race card on down the pike, and keep it there.
    "Progressives aren't really progressive. They're regressive, all the way back to Sodom and Gomorrah." - author unknown

  10. #30
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    Re: Christ's philosophy, and what makes him real...

    Quote Originally Posted by Logicman View Post
    Take your knee-jerk, jack-legged race card on down the pike, and keep it there.
    How bout you take your anti immigrant racist propaganda down the pike, and keep it there. Everyone here would be thankful for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    You remember that next time one of your precious lil protestors gets run down in the street or your precious minor aged criminal is locked in a cage and I laugh at your pleas.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

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