What Defines Humans

This subject is always worth philosophical discussion. What exactly separates humans from the rest of the planet, both now and in the past?

At one time, I thought the easy answer was fire. Only humans know how to manipulate fire. And, when it came to separating Homo Sapiens Sapiens From Homo Erectus or Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis, it was how HSS used fire more creatively than the others. In other words, HSS engineered with fire, while the others maybe figured out how to cook with it, but that's about it.

All that said. I find that one other factor, perhaps a skill that is even bigger than fire is language. To be human is to master language. Having language is a huge advantage. It's perhaps the biggest advantage HSS had over anyone out there. Language makes us human? Maybe.

A third biggie is cognitive thought; specifically the ability to think ahead. Understanding cause and effect was paramount to our survival as a species back when we were both slower and weaker than our rivals. How do you beat a faster, stronger thinking upright primate? You out-think him by being more clever and cunning than it can be. That's how.

So, is it our ability to form complex thoughts; the capability to develop strategies by manipulating our environment to more closely suit idealized concepts that makes us human? Maybe it's all three.

I watched an interesting video doc last night. It focused on the confrontation between Neanderthal and Cro Magnon man (HSS). In short, from what I gathered from the piece, the key to victory for us and extinction for them was the latter's failure to compete with a more clever species. We were smarter, more resourceful and more capable of using our imaginations to solve strategical puzzles. Neanderthal, although more suited to its environment, stronger, faster and heartier, could not think past its nose. And, that was detrimental.

Surprising to me is that they piece claims that the Neanderthal had language.

What Defines Humans

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Self-consciousness.

Angel said:

Self-consciousness.

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I am pretty sure my dogs are self-conscious. At least they respond as expected. Fear from big booms. Excitement over yummy stuff. Jealous at the right moments.

What they can't do though is plan. They really suck at thinking ahead.

calamity said:

I am pretty sure my dogs are self-conscious. At least they respond as expected. Fear from big booms. Excitement over yummy stuff. Jealous at the right moments.

What they can't do though is plan. They really suck at thinking ahead.

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Like your dogs, my cats respond as you say, but neither your dogs nor my cats are aware of themselves as responding as you say.
They are conscious, to be sure. But self-conscious?

calamity said:

I am pretty sure my dogs are self-conscious. At least they respond as expected. Fear from big booms. Excitement over yummy stuff. Jealous at the right moments.

What they can't do though is plan. They really suck at thinking ahead.

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In answer to the OP, an above average ability for intelligent iteration.

More than one answer, I think. Perhaps

Lovebug said:

More than one answer, I think. Perhaps

forming more complex thoughts than other species, and our ability to reason? Language is common among other species, but we have the ability to learn and/or imitate other languages.
How important do you think compassion and empathy are?
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The compassion/empathy would be a key to socialization. At least, as I see it, it's needed within the group.

I'm thinking a certain behavior needs to be expected in order to develop trust. So, no compassion or empathy needs to be shown slaves or enemies (unless you do want them to trust and reciprocate), for example. But, it is needed between slaveholders, who probably do not want to be ripped off or cheated, and certainly allies need to show each other various degrees of compassion in order to remain friendly. If that makes sense.

I'm not sure the other animals go to that length. Insects, although extremely social, are certainly not compassionate or empathetic. But, I do think some apes have displayed that characteristic within their troops. Not sure though.

William Rea said:

In answer to the OP, an above average ability for intelligent iteration.

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Hmm. How do crystals escape your criterion?

The abily to change their environment on a massive scale to the detriment of themselves and other creatures.

calamity said:

This subject is always worth philosophical discussion. What exactly separates humans from the rest of the planet, both now and in the past?

At one time, I thought the easy answer was fire. Only humans know how to manipulate fire. And, when it came to separating Homo Sapiens Sapiens From Homo Erectus or Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis, it was how HSS used fire more creatively than the others. In other words, HSS engineered with fire, while the others maybe figured out how to cook with it, but that's about it.

All that said. I find that one other factor, perhaps a skill that is even bigger than fire is language. To be human is to master language. Having language is a huge advantage. It's perhaps the biggest advantage HSS had over anyone out there. Language makes us human? Maybe.

A third biggie is cognitive thought; specifically the ability to think ahead. Understanding cause and effect was paramount to our survival as a species back when we were both slower and weaker than our rivals. How do you beat a faster, stronger thinking upright primate? You out-think him by being more clever and cunning than it can be. That's how.

So, is it our ability to form complex thoughts; the capability to develop strategies by manipulating our environment to more closely suit idealized concepts that makes us human? Maybe it's all three.

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An additional question is;

Are all of us actually sentient? Are lots of us humans just faking it and getting along by hanging on the coat tails of the clever?

I seem to come across lots of people who don't really think at all.

Tim the plumber said:

An additional question is;

Are all of us actually sentient? Are lots of us humans just faking it and getting along by hanging on the coat tails of the clever?

I seem to come across lots of people who don't really think at all.

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Back in the 80's I read a book about something like that. According to it, well over 90% of our daily lives are accomplished on auto-pilot. We rarely engage the higher centers of our brains.

But, I would say innovation would be going beyond rote. Now, how many people actually innovate? Depends on your definition, I guess. I am certainly innovating right now by writing this statement, which I formulated by combining vague 30-year old memories with current discussion; putting it all together into a reasonably coherent communique.

beancounter said:

The abily to change their environment on a massive scale to the detriment of themselves and other creatures.

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During the Dark Ages in Eastern Europe, having a outside firer was changing the environment. Still, they were not thinking about the environment, but they were human.

For the longest time, people used to always mention the mirror test as the defining difference, but at least a few "lower" animals have been shown to pass the test.

List of Animals That Have Passed the Mirror Test - Animal Cognition

A desire to know where we came from, what the purpose of life is, and to worship our Creator...

Elvira said:

A desire to know where we came from, what the purpose of life is, and to worship our Creator...

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...or invent a creator. My dog worships me; and probably believes I am its creator. But, I know it can't invent a creator out of whole cloth like we did. Maybe people who believe this creator is real are like dogs.

BTW: can you participate in any thread ever without polluting it with your god bull****?

calamity said:

Back in the 80's I read a book about something like that. According to it, well over 90% of our daily lives are accomplished on auto-pilot. We rarely engage the higher centers of our brains.

But, I would say innovation would be going beyond rote. Now, how many people actually innovate? Depends on your definition, I guess. I am certainly innovating right now by writing this statement, which I formulated by combining vague 30-year old memories with current discussion; putting it all together into a reasonably coherent communique.

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Yep, I would say that all the people who post here, all those who i have read more than a couple of times, even those I consider mostly mad, are sentient.

In normal life however there are a lot who never get out of auto-pilot.

Tim the plumber said:

An additional question is;

Are all of us actually sentient? Are lots of us humans just faking it and getting along by hanging on the coat tails of the clever?

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calamity said:

The compassion/empathy would be a key to socialization. At least, as I see it, it's needed within the group.

I'm thinking a certain behavior needs to be expected in order to develop trust. So, no compassion or empathy needs to be shown slaves or enemies (unless you do want them to trust and reciprocate), for example. But, it is needed between slaveholders, who probably do not want to be ripped off or cheated, and certainly allies need to show each other various degrees of compassion in order to remain friendly. If that makes sense.

I'm not sure the other animals go to that length. Insects, although extremely social, are certainly not compassionate or empathetic. But, I do think some apes have displayed that characteristic within their troops. Not sure though.

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Does the sentiment change over time, do we, can we, develop more empathy, a deeper understanding of human needs?

Tim the plumber said:

I seem to come across lots of people who don't really think at all.

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Having the capability to think and actually using it, or actually being incapable of thinking? Good question. One should carry a stack of "here's your sign" cards in the back pocket to hand out at a moment's notice.

Lovebug said:

Does the sentiment change over time, do we, can we, develop more empathy, a deeper understanding of human needs?...

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I would think we should, but I doubt we do. If anything, we become more tribal as we learn more about the differences between our tribe and theirs. And, once we can other, we will no longer empathize with them.

Is that human? Maybe. We are a tribal lot. It's another thing that helped us eliminate our other hominid competitors.

Lovebug said:

More than one answer, I think. Perhaps

forming more complex thoughts than other species, and our ability to reason? Language is common among other species, but we have the ability to learn and/or imitate other languages.
How important do you think compassion and empathy are?
​

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Elvira said:

A desire to know where we came from, what the purpose of life is, and to worship our Creator...

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I think all these distinctive human traits come down to self-consciousness, which is in so many words to say, to soul.

Angel said:

Self-consciousness.

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E.F. Schumacher & Friends on What Makes Us Human: The Consciousness Recoil


"Self-awareness, which constitutes the difference between animal and man, is a power of unlimited potential, a power which not only makes man human but gives him the possibility, even the need, to become superhuman. As the Scholastics used to say: “Homo non proprie humanus sed superhumanus est” — which means that to be properly human, you must go beyond the merely human."

— (E.F. Schumacher, A Guide for the Perplexed, p. 38)


"Moving from the animal to the human level, who would seriously deny the addition…of new powers? What precisely they are has become a matter of controversy in modern times, but the fact that man is able to do — and is doing — innumerable things which lie totally outside the range of possibilities of even the most highly developed animals cannot be disputed…How can it be defined? What can it be called? This power z [denoting the uniquely human trait] has undoubtedly a great deal to do with the fact that man is not only able to think but is also able to be aware of his thinking. Consciousness and intelligence, as it were, recoil upon themselves. There is not merely a conscious being, but a being capable of being conscious of its consciousness; not merely a thinker, but a thinker capable of watching and studying his own thinking. There is something able to say “I” and to direct consciousness in accordance with its own purposes, a master or controller, a power at a higher level than consciousness itself. This power, z, consciousness recoiling upon itself, opens up unlimited possibilities of purposeful learning, investigating, exploring, and of formulating and accumulating knowledge…I shall call it self-awareness."

 — (Schumacher, p. 17)

https://www.musingmind.org/what-makes-us-human/


E. F. Schumacher
In 1977 he published A Guide for the Perplexed as a critique of materialistic scientism and as an exploration of the nature and organisation of knowledge.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._F._Schumacher


Namaste

Angel said:

I think all these distinctive human traits come down to self-consciousness, which is in so many words to say, to soul.

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Your soul won't keep a bear from eating you. Fail.

But, using clever, cunning wits just might save your ass.

calamity said:

Your soul won't keep a bear from eating you. Fail.

But, using clever, cunning wits just might save your ass.

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Saving my ass doesn't make me human. All animals do it.

Angel said:

Saving my ass doesn't make me human. All animals do it.

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most animals rely on instinct. We rely on innovation

calamity said:

...or invent a creator. My dog worships me; and probably believes I am its creator. But, I know it can't invent a creator out of whole cloth like we did. Maybe people who believe this creator is real are like dogs.

BTW: can you participate in any thread ever without polluting it with your god bull****?

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It could have been a good discussion, but ...