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Thread: Are Public Schools Designed to be Propaganda Systems to Indoctrinate the Young?

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    Re: Are Public Schools Designed to be Propaganda Systems to Indoctrinate the Young?

    I watched that entire video, I'm tired, I couldn't find the will to stop. He's also typically easy to listen to.

    I have no idea. The issue is that there are a lot of competing factors.
    - you do need some level of obedience in school because you have 10-40 young kids, of varying discipline and temperament, being asked to sit around all day doing stuff they don't want to do.
    - kids in general need some level of discipline in many cases, whether the are stuck at school all day or not.
    - most jobs require obedience, and only a subset of jobs require creativity
    - some people learn better in an open environment, some learn better when it's disciplined and drilled

    I'll stop there, but I think that gets the point across. I don't add all that up and think wow, schools are teaching people how to be obedient. It looks more like it's a combination of being a necessary skill to learn, and a hedging the bet, and a matter of practicality, to the degree schools require conformity.

    But Noam Chomsky is not an idiot, so I won't dismiss it just based on that.

    What I'd look for are good studies that can fairly well compare groups of students that have a curriculum like he's promoting, vs a standard public style where neither would have been likely to skew enrollment/selection ahead of time (like an elite private vs public is not apples to apples just on the basis of students).

    If they can get that sort of data to look at, I think it would to be answer the question of whether or not this actually changes students to be more creative. Is all of Japan's conformity based on culture, or is some of this also genetic? etc.

    I don't know, I look at my daughter who has lots of chances to be creative, etc., and all I can think is that I wish she was a bit more obedient I mean, it's weird to see children with such freedom, when they are ultimately idiots when it comes to their own safety, long term planning, etc. It seems counterproductive to want willful, creative kids, when they can easily turn those skills to doing creatively *bad and unsafe* things. I mean, some kids who love robots and want to built their own..knock yourself out...get them a giant workshop and let them go to town. But that's not most kids.
    Last edited by Mach; 12-30-17 at 09:47 PM.

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    Re: Are Public Schools Designed to be Propaganda Systems to Indoctrinate the Young?

    Quote Originally Posted by xMathFanx View Post
    Are Public Schools Designed to be Propaganda Systems to Indoctrinate the Young?

    Are Public Schools designed to be propaganda systems to indoctrinate the young or are the overwhelming majority of the Adult population (i.e. parents, teachers, principles, school administration, politicians, US Secretary of Education, ect.) really so ignorant/stupid that they do not recognize the blatant miseducation/abuse that is occurring year after year, generation after generation, ect.? Or, do you challenge the premise of the question entirely? Thoughts?

    As a reference, see short video where Linguist/Commentator Noam Chomsky discusses the Public Education System: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVqMAlgAnlo
    I know a couple of teachers who gave it up because they found themselves teaching kids how to take the test rather than being able to form a free thinking challenging curriculum. As for "indoctrination", Chomsky is right if we consider the social construct of K-12 as well as the rather unchallenging subject matter. Education is geared for competition which is very important to a capitalist business society that is more concerned with positive numbers rather than valuable ones. That is to say, gains and losses are much more important than quality. Teaching for the test for instance is supposed to guarantee higher success rates for graduation rather then basing graduation on mastering subject matter and the depth of understanding and articulation.

    Education is not a priority.

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    Re: Are Public Schools Designed to be Propaganda Systems to Indoctrinate the Young?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cisero View Post
    Please don't start a new thread every 12 minutes.

    Public Schools aren't designed to be propaganda systems, they can however be used to propagate some misinformation. However, access to internet, public libraries and good parenting are all adequate ways to combat this possibility.
    I personally think the new generation is less likely to be influenced by the government. Most millenials fact-check and get information from various websites. Self-education it seems is on a rise.

    We need to teach our kids the value of critical thinking and sources. We also should point out the political biases in the way some facts are presented. Nuance is key.
    I disagree public schools are designed to train people to be obedient. I remember several things that were told to me in public school that I was lucky enough to know we're not true.

    First that I would use math everyday basic arithmetic yes I use that everyday but Algebra I have never used that outside of an algebra class it is utterly worthless to anyone who is not an engineer.

    Another half-truth they told was that it's important to appreciate the literature they think you should appreciate I found it tedious plotless and boring. I have found no instance in my life where I have had to think about the meaning of The Great Gatsby.

    Another one I was told was that I would be pretty much a loser if I didn't go to 4-year College.

    There are no useful skills. There is nothing regarding nutrition there is nothing regarding personal finance nothing about practical useful information for life.

    So yes they are for propaganda but I think the more important thing is there to train people to be obedient Factory workers.

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    Re: Are Public Schools Designed to be Propaganda Systems to Indoctrinate the Young?

    Quote Originally Posted by CLAX1911 View Post

    There are no useful skills. There is nothing regarding nutrition there is nothing regarding personal finance nothing about practical useful information for life.
    @CLAX1911

    I think you have made a very strong observation here. There are many areas that certainly should be taught in order to nurture healthy, independent, ect. individuals that are never taught (at ages where it would be very useful to know of). Why is that? It is not due to a lack of time--they have you for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week for the better part of a year for a decade and change. You raise an interesting question

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    Re: Are Public Schools Designed to be Propaganda Systems to Indoctrinate the Young?

    Quote Originally Posted by xMathFanx View Post
    @CLAX1911

    I think you have made a very strong observation here. There are many areas that certainly should be taught in order to nurture healthy, independent, ect. individuals that are never taught (at ages where it would be very useful to know of). Why is that? It is not due to a lack of time--they have you for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week for the better part of a year for a decade and change. You raise an interesting question
    I don't get why they teach higher math. Or liturature.

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    Re: Are Public Schools Designed to be Propaganda Systems to Indoctrinate the Young?

    Quote Originally Posted by CLAX1911 View Post
    I don't get why they teach higher math. Or liturature.
    @CLAX1911

    I think you made a good observation about arbitrarily being confined to "classic" literature rather than allowing children/young adults the freedom to branch out more. However, I do understand why those subjects are "taught" (although based on the nature of good literature, Public Schools will never be equipped to give a solid analysis since it fundamentally challenges aspects of the society for which the upcoming generations are brought up in and told they must acclimate into--take "Gulliver's Travels" by Jonathon Swift for example).

    As for Math, it is amongst the most efficient ways of training an individuals abstract reasoning ability, which makes up a substantial bulk of intelligence. Also, our society is based on harnessing Science & Maths in useful ways, so it is sensible that the general population has a level of understanding concerning how this works (in order to be informed enough to make informed decisions).

    Still, your main observation remains significant in that one needs practical life skills & knowledge before branching out into areas such as literature, for example (although this is not at all how our current model is set up).

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    Re: Are Public Schools Designed to be Propaganda Systems to Indoctrinate the Young?

    Quote Originally Posted by xMathFanx View Post
    @CLAX1911

    I think you made a good observation about arbitrarily being confined to "classic" literature rather than allowing children/young adults the freedom to branch out more. However, I do understand why those subjects are "taught" (although based on the nature of good literature, Public Schools will never be equipped to give a solid analysis since it fundamentally challenges aspects of the society for which the upcoming generations are brought up in and told they must acclimate into--take "Gulliver's Travels" by Jonathon Swift for example).
    Even the movie was a root canal. I couldn't imagine having to read the book.

    I loved to read technical stuff non fiction and various manuals. I read them in school. Those have been much more useful than the great Gatsby. All i learned firm that is that people will believe trash is great because people they think are smarter than them told them it was.

    As for Math, it is amongst the most efficient ways of training an individuals abstract reasoning ability, which makes up a substantial bulk of intelligence. Also, our society is based on harnessing Science & Maths in useful ways, so it is sensible that the general population has a level of understanding concerning how this works (in order to be informed enough to make informed decisions).
    Basic mathematics I agree. But algebra trigonometry and calculus is only useful in a very narrow range of careers but mostly important because you have to have it to graduate for some reason.

    It is utterly worthless outside of a vary narrow job field.

    Still, your main observation remains significant in that one needs practical life skills & knowledge before branching out into areas such as literature, for example (although this is not at all how our current model is set up).
    I think it's because we are hyper focused on teaching people pointless math they would never use and appreciation of dull nonsense.

    The human animal is a curious being and would learn without schools entirely out of his very nature. The idea that you habe to be forced into it seems ansurd.

    I still think the major focus of schools has never been to educate people but you train them to be obedient factory workers.

    Ever come across those Absolutly brilliant children that are constantly jabbing discipline issues? Why would such a thing exist if the school was supposed to help you learn?

    Go here even this bell rings this is your lunch time don't be late do what you are told. None of that nonsense creates a learning enviroment.

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    Re: Are Public Schools Designed to be Propaganda Systems to Indoctrinate the Young?

    Quote Originally Posted by CLAX1911 View Post
    Even the movie was a root canal. I couldn't imagine having to read the book.

    I loved to read technical stuff non fiction and various manuals. I read them in school. Those have been much more useful than the great Gatsby. All i learned firm that is that people will believe trash is great because people they think are smarter than them told them it was.

    I largely agree with your notion concerning the type of literature the k-12 system arbitrarily confines people to when many may enjoy/profit from other stories much more that may or may not be considered "classic/great literature".

    Quote Originally Posted by CLAX1911 View Post
    Basic mathematics I agree. But algebra trigonometry and calculus is only useful in a very narrow range of careers but mostly important because you have to have it to graduate for some reason.

    It is utterly worthless outside of a vary narrow job field.
    Job market and applications aside, Mathematics is still one of the best ways we know of to train abstract reasoning in that one needs to follow strict/rigorous lines of logical argumentation, identify a pattern, utilize strong mental visualization, assort the pattern into a working model, make swift and accurate computations, ect. ect. It is essentially rigorous training for your brain/mind in a very similar way that lifting weights/jump rope/sprints/jumping exercises/ect. ect is rigorous training for your body. That is, to continue with this analogy, if one's mathematical knowledge is limited to arithmetic, they may or may not have the mental strength to "bench press" 350+lbs (since a person can still be of very high intelligence and not have studied math) however, if a person's knowledge of mathematics extends to through modern Graduate school level, they definitely can "bench press" 350+lbs. since the nature of the material necessitates that level of strength or higher. Thus, one of the surest ways to get to that level (that we currently know of), is to study higher Maths (i.e. even though it is not requisite to know high levels of Math to be highly intelligent, if one does know high level Maths then they definitely are at a higher level of abstract reasoning by necessity--it is "push ups" for your brain/mind)

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    Re: Are Public Schools Designed to be Propaganda Systems to Indoctrinate the Young?

    Are Public Schools Designed to be Propaganda Systems to Indoctrinate the Young?
    no

    .....

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    Re: Are Public Schools Designed to be Propaganda Systems to Indoctrinate the Young?

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    no

    .....
    I would be interested to hear your side if you would like to elaborate

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