• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Are Public Schools Designed to be Propaganda Systems to Indoctrinate the Young?

I don't get why they teach higher math. Or liturature.

@CLAX1911

I think you made a good observation about arbitrarily being confined to "classic" literature rather than allowing children/young adults the freedom to branch out more. However, I do understand why those subjects are "taught" (although based on the nature of good literature, Public Schools will never be equipped to give a solid analysis since it fundamentally challenges aspects of the society for which the upcoming generations are brought up in and told they must acclimate into--take "Gulliver's Travels" by Jonathon Swift for example).

As for Math, it is amongst the most efficient ways of training an individuals abstract reasoning ability, which makes up a substantial bulk of intelligence. Also, our society is based on harnessing Science & Maths in useful ways, so it is sensible that the general population has a level of understanding concerning how this works (in order to be informed enough to make informed decisions).

Still, your main observation remains significant in that one needs practical life skills & knowledge before branching out into areas such as literature, for example (although this is not at all how our current model is set up).
 
@CLAX1911

I think you made a good observation about arbitrarily being confined to "classic" literature rather than allowing children/young adults the freedom to branch out more. However, I do understand why those subjects are "taught" (although based on the nature of good literature, Public Schools will never be equipped to give a solid analysis since it fundamentally challenges aspects of the society for which the upcoming generations are brought up in and told they must acclimate into--take "Gulliver's Travels" by Jonathon Swift for example).
Even the movie was a root canal. I couldn't imagine having to read the book.

I loved to read technical stuff non fiction and various manuals. I read them in school. Those have been much more useful than the great Gatsby. All i learned firm that is that people will believe trash is great because people they think are smarter than them told them it was.

As for Math, it is amongst the most efficient ways of training an individuals abstract reasoning ability, which makes up a substantial bulk of intelligence. Also, our society is based on harnessing Science & Maths in useful ways, so it is sensible that the general population has a level of understanding concerning how this works (in order to be informed enough to make informed decisions).
Basic mathematics I agree. But algebra trigonometry and calculus is only useful in a very narrow range of careers but mostly important because you have to have it to graduate for some reason.

It is utterly worthless outside of a vary narrow job field.

Still, your main observation remains significant in that one needs practical life skills & knowledge before branching out into areas such as literature, for example (although this is not at all how our current model is set up).
I think it's because we are hyper focused on teaching people pointless math they would never use and appreciation of dull nonsense.

The human animal is a curious being and would learn without schools entirely out of his very nature. The idea that you habe to be forced into it seems ansurd.

I still think the major focus of schools has never been to educate people but you train them to be obedient factory workers.

Ever come across those Absolutly brilliant children that are constantly jabbing discipline issues? Why would such a thing exist if the school was supposed to help you learn?

Go here even this bell rings this is your lunch time don't be late do what you are told. None of that nonsense creates a learning enviroment.
 
Even the movie was a root canal. I couldn't imagine having to read the book.

I loved to read technical stuff non fiction and various manuals. I read them in school. Those have been much more useful than the great Gatsby. All i learned firm that is that people will believe trash is great because people they think are smarter than them told them it was.


I largely agree with your notion concerning the type of literature the k-12 system arbitrarily confines people to when many may enjoy/profit from other stories much more that may or may not be considered "classic/great literature".

Basic mathematics I agree. But algebra trigonometry and calculus is only useful in a very narrow range of careers but mostly important because you have to have it to graduate for some reason.

It is utterly worthless outside of a vary narrow job field.

Job market and applications aside, Mathematics is still one of the best ways we know of to train abstract reasoning in that one needs to follow strict/rigorous lines of logical argumentation, identify a pattern, utilize strong mental visualization, assort the pattern into a working model, make swift and accurate computations, ect. ect. It is essentially rigorous training for your brain/mind in a very similar way that lifting weights/jump rope/sprints/jumping exercises/ect. ect is rigorous training for your body. That is, to continue with this analogy, if one's mathematical knowledge is limited to arithmetic, they may or may not have the mental strength to "bench press" 350+lbs (since a person can still be of very high intelligence and not have studied math) however, if a person's knowledge of mathematics extends to through modern Graduate school level, they definitely can "bench press" 350+lbs. since the nature of the material necessitates that level of strength or higher. Thus, one of the surest ways to get to that level (that we currently know of), is to study higher Maths (i.e. even though it is not requisite to know high levels of Math to be highly intelligent, if one does know high level Maths then they definitely are at a higher level of abstract reasoning by necessity--it is "push ups" for your brain/mind)
 
Are Public Schools Designed to be Propaganda Systems to Indoctrinate the Young?

no

.....
 
which part of my answer confuses you?

It is not that I am confused about your position--you do not think that Public Schools are designed to indoctrinate the young.

Rather, the reasoning behind your position is still in the dark, and if you care to, I would like to see a light put to it (so that I and others can exam it)
 
It is not that I am confused about your position--you do not think that Public Schools are designed to indoctrinate the young.

Rather, the reasoning behind your position is still in the dark, and if you care to, I would like to see a light put to it (so that I and others can exam it)

my parents both dedicated their careers to educating kids in the public school system, and i received my primary and secondary education in public schools. it was a good education, and i consider the "indoctrination" nonsense to be horse****.

"exam" that.
 
Part I:

my parents both dedicated their careers to educating kids in the public school system, and i received my primary and secondary education in public schools. it was a good education, and i consider the "indoctrination" nonsense to be horse****.

"exam" that.

Sure. First, note, my Mother is a Public School teacher and Public School teachers from (I believe) this forum and others have weighed in on this topic on the opposing side of you from various countries (i.e. they aruged that there were notable levels of indoctrination occurring in Public (as well as Private) school systems and they viewed this as highly problematic--also, they were eager to talk about these issues as it is a source of great distress for them).

This is a refined version of a previous post I made on this topic that lays out much of the groundwork of my position that I would like you to pick a bone with if you still have one (which seems highly likely):

The largest issue (as I see it) is that people who respect intellectualism/independent creativity are in the extreme minority (I'm speaking strictly of adults now--those old enough to have been fully physically matured and have "life experience". One would expect them to have some wisdom to impart once they have been in the world for 3+ decades, although this is often not necessarily the case). Therefore, most people inevitably are not going to be fostered in such a way as to bring about the best in their intellectual/creative capacities while in the bulk of their most formative years (growing up), will lack exposure to areas outside of immediate contact (e.g. how is one going to "realize" they have a passion for and want to pursue Paleontology when all they have ever seen is their father/men watching Football and their mother/women at at minimum being very sympathetic to the father's/men's behavior/worldview?--I know that I am speaking rather generally here, but I think you understand my point). The scenario I described above, concerning the father, is firmly inside of what I often refer to as the Mammal Snow Globe World that most adults inhabit (and have tacitly agreed with each other not to "shake up"). In order to not shake up the Snow Globe, the adults are forced to subject their children to a Perpetual Firehose of Bullsh't or else (if the children found out any deep truths about ourselves and/or the Universe which have been discovered thus far) they would be bound to break free of the confinement.

As of right now, the education system is so bad and the adults are so oblivious/stupid/ignorant/arrogant that they can't even let the kids come in to school and watch credible lectures, documentaries, OpenCourseware or point them in the right direction with people to look up, book recommendations, the fundamental questions that any given topic is exploring , ect. The kids would be naturally drawn to this information if they were exposed to it, they simply are not exposed to it because there is an obscurantism at work that is pervasive in our society (and world wide). Instead, in the current system, children growing up through their teenage years into young adulthood are subjected to a Perpetual Firehose of Bullsh't through the "education" system and the "mature" adults in our societies.

People have been strongly primed to believe that magical type thinking is "wonderful", "beautiful", "interesting", "hopeful", "fun" ect. due to things like Sana Claus, Easter Bunny, Superhero tv/comics, Harry Potter type Sci-Fi, ect. ect. Although these things in-and-of-themselves are not harmful (and can be enriching in many ways), when combined with not being exposed to the real world, how it actually is and the methods by which we have determined our limited range of knowledge thus far, then the magic show becomes extremely pernicious. Also, the majority of adults are so attached to their infantile superstitious beliefs that they think learning science is "dry", "scary", "cold", "devoid of any deep meaning/feeling" and don't want their kids to learn it either for these reasons. This combination confines children to the mind-space of the Mammal Snow Globe rather than what me know of the Real World thus far.

Furthermore, the leaders of the business world and governments (the powerful classes) have a vested interested in keeping the populace misinformed, uneducated, unintelligent, conditioned toward obedience, ect.
 
Last edited:
Part II:

Now, after people hit a certain age there is going to be a level of courage required of people in order to break free of the Mammal Snow Globe World for which they have always resided. We are in difficult times because we cannot allow people to program their children with this primitive mindset and we also cannot force them to teach their children a certain way either without becoming completely tyrannical. Even people who have the potential to be intelligent (or highly-intelligent) and make real contributions to society/progress are being reduced to half-mentally disabled, chimp-human hybrids (i.e. never fully progress/develop our of being merely a Mammal and toward a Homo Sapien, so to speak--"Mammalhood") that are destroying society/the upcoming generations (and it is sad/alarming because I have seen a lot of this at Uni. particularly in the technical subjects). The overwhelming bulk of the adult population are oblivious to just how breathtakingly unrespectable people they are for indoctrinating their kids into their bullsh't instead of having the courage to face reality (as we currently understand it) as well as how they comport themselves in life more broadly.

I stated that "they" are confined to "Mammalhood", because Homo Sapiens living in the 21st century fails to truly capture it. Brain Development in Humans/Homo Sapiens is an important factor here, because one does not truly acquire the unique characteristics that make us "Human" until you are in your low to mid twenties or so when frontal lobe development is completed. Now, there are many factors that can potentially "derail" this development such as excessive alcohol abuse, chronic stress, social isolation, other types of drug abuse, ect. I think that due to the way our society is structured, a huge bulk of peoples brains are not becoming properly/fully developed and confine them to a stage of quasi-Homo Sapiens (e.i. more like an adolescent or quasi-adolescent brain) for the entirety of their life. Now, it would be highly probable that said people are unable to recognize the failure of their brains to fully mature since their mind-space would have complete continuity from their adolescents-young adulthood-adulthood, and simply think that "this is how things are" while failing to realize that a "shift" should have been felt at some point in their twenties to thirty that is significantly different than that of the teenage mind/brain.

Now, the k-12 public school teachers typically defines the lower-end educated class as merely a Bachelor's degree in Education or the like is required to earn the job rather than the more advanced levels of formal Education required of College/University Professors for example. Due to this, the k-12 teachers tend to be aware/educated/intelligent enough to teach the material they are instructed to in the curriculum, however lack the depth of critical thought to challenge the system itself and thus are unaware that they are in fact subjecting the children to a Perpetual Firehose of Bullsh't.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Last edited:
Part III:


After one has completed the k-12 system, serious problems in our education system persists (although importantly it improves). In our current Education system (i.e. USA's and elsewhere), one could acquire a PhD in Biology (or any other STEM discipline) from Princeton (or some other elite school) and still be a confined to Mammal Snow Globe World, thus lacking the requisite critical thinking skills that would allow them to escape the mind-space for which they were raised.

A lot of the sane Professors are cowed into silence due to the hierarchy of the University system. That is, if a Biology professor wants to talk with candor about Evolution (not in the "textbook" way, but in the real way that "hits home" with the students who are mostly very young still), then en masse, he is going to shake up the students Snow Globe in such a way that will be very perturbing/frightening/shocking/intimidating/ect. for them with 5 separate classrooms each full of 25-200+ students (depending on the course) every semester. Now, they are immediately going to run into a huge amount of trouble, because some good percentage of these kids are bound to tell their parents about it, they and/or their parents are going to complain/issue a report to the "higher-ups" in the administration (who have no understanding nor interest with what the Professors know or the nature of the subjects, while also fancying themselves as "intelligent" because they are "successful" in the business world so they are very stubborn), the Professor very likely could/almost definitely lose their job (that they went to school for over a decade plus post-doc position just to be sufficiently credentialed to get the job). Therefore, this creates a "safe" environment for the ignorant/stupid "people to get "educated" and "earn" their degree without really understanding an iota of the subject. Furthermore, the students who are sane/outside the Snow Globe and really want to know about the true nature of the topics in detail are "missing out" because the teachers intentionally never say enough to "bridge-a-gap" for their own sake. Thus, one would have to do a lot of extracurricular studies in addition to the formal studies just in order to keep pace with the reality of what is being taught. However, since they are undergrads, the whole point in the schooling in the first place is to receive proper mentorship from a qualified instructor, hence they do not necessarily know where to look in order get to the truth of the matter and keep pace. In short, it is hopelessly f'cked up unless society changes first.
 
Last edited:
Are teaching, science, grammar and critical thinking, anti-conservative? Because if they are, small wonder we have troubles.
 
Are teaching, science, grammar and critical thinking, anti-conservative? Because if they are, small wonder we have troubles.

Is this a general observation/question or is it intended to be aimed toward one of the members who have posted here (forgive me, I am not sure how to interpret your comment in the current context)?
 
Part I:



Sure. First, note, my Mother is a Public School teacher and Public School teachers from (I believe) this forum and others have weighed in on this topic on the opposing side of you from various countries (i.e. they aruged that there were notable levels of indoctrination occurring in Public (as well as Private) school systems and they viewed this as highly problematic--also, they were eager to talk about these issues as it is a source of great distress for them).

This is a refined version of a previous post I made on this topic that lays out much of the groundwork of my position that I would like you to pick a bone with if you still have one (which seems highly likely):

The largest issue (as I see it) is that people who respect intellectualism/independent creativity are in the extreme minority (I'm speaking strictly of adults now--those old enough to have been fully physically matured and have "life experience". One would expect them to have some wisdom to impart once they have been in the world for 3+ decades, although this is often not necessarily the case). Therefore, most people inevitably are not going to be fostered in such a way as to bring about the best in their intellectual/creative capacities while in the bulk of their most formative years (growing up), will lack exposure to areas outside of immediate contact (e.g. how is one going to "realize" they have a passion for and want to pursue Paleontology when all they have ever seen is their father/men watching Football and their mother/women at at minimum being very sympathetic to the father's/men's behavior/worldview?--I know that I am speaking rather generally here, but I think you understand my point). The scenario I described above, concerning the father, is firmly inside of what I often refer to as the Mammal Snow Globe World that most adults inhabit (and have tacitly agreed with each other not to "shake up"). In order to not shake up the Snow Globe, the adults are forced to subject their children to a Perpetual Firehose of Bullsh't or else (if the children found out any deep truths about ourselves and/or the Universe which have been discovered thus far) they would be bound to break free of the confinement.

As of right now, the education system is so bad and the adults are so oblivious/stupid/ignorant/arrogant that they can't even let the kids come in to school and watch credible lectures, documentaries, OpenCourseware or point them in the right direction with people to look up, book recommendations, the fundamental questions that any given topic is exploring , ect. The kids would be naturally drawn to this information if they were exposed to it, they simply are not exposed to it because there is an obscurantism at work that is pervasive in our society (and world wide). Instead, in the current system, children growing up through their teenage years into young adulthood are subjected to a Perpetual Firehose of Bullsh't through the "education" system and the "mature" adults in our societies.

People have been strongly primed to believe that magical type thinking is "wonderful", "beautiful", "interesting", "hopeful", "fun" ect. due to things like Sana Claus, Easter Bunny, Superhero tv/comics, Harry Potter type Sci-Fi, ect. ect. Although these things in-and-of-themselves are not harmful (and can be enriching in many ways), when combined with not being exposed to the real world, how it actually is and the methods by which we have determined our limited range of knowledge thus far, then the magic show becomes extremely pernicious. Also, the majority of adults are so attached to their infantile superstitious beliefs that they think learning science is "dry", "scary", "cold", "devoid of any deep meaning/feeling" and don't want their kids to learn it either for these reasons. This combination confines children to the mind-space of the Mammal Snow Globe rather than what me know of the Real World thus far.

Furthermore, the leaders of the business world and governments (the powerful classes) have a vested interested in keeping the populace misinformed, uneducated, unintelligent, conditioned toward obedience, ect.

the public education system could certainly be improved. using a private voucher system to divert funds and encourage it to fail faster is not improving the public system, and that's the main strategy being employed. either way, my point stands. my parents taught kids English and math and did whatever they could to make sure that those kids had the best opportunity to go to college or to enter vocational careers. that's not "indoctrination," and whenever i see someone spouting that nonsense, it pisses me off.
 
I was commenting on the thread in general. I am with Helix. I'm pro public schools and not a fan of the voucher system. My sister is a well loved high school English teacher.
 
Part I:Sure. ...they can't even let the kids come in to school and watch credible lectures, documentaries, OpenCourseware or point them in the right direction with people to look up, book recommendations, the fundamental questions that any given topic is exploring , ect. The kids would be naturally drawn to this information if they were exposed to it, they simply are not exposed to it because there is an obscurantism at work that is pervasive in our society (and world wide). ... Furthermore, the leaders of the business world and governments (the powerful classes) have a vested interested in keeping the populace misinformed, uneducated, unintelligent, conditioned toward obedience, ect.
it would appear, from the shown portion of your post, that you do want an indoctrination system used on students
only, the one you would want is different from the one now being applied

of course we want/need an indoctrination system. we want our kids to learn acceptable behavior including that in social/school/public settings. without such indoctrination, we would have chaos and anarchy

which then tells me the question should actually ask, what should our education indoctrination system consist of

our present public ed system is largely unchanged since the late 1800's - with the emergence of the industrial age. teach every student the same core information as determined by age level rather than ability. an assembly line, which sends the students to a different work station at the beginning of each school year. i believe there was an accepted intent to provide the public with the skills needed to be good employees. and as citizens were leaving the farms for the prosperity of factory work in the cities back then, when our agrarian economy morphed into a industrial one, this was viewed by the populace as a good thing

the problem is, we have entered the information age, but we still have an ed system churning out good factory workers, when such skills are in higher supply than demand. for example, china exposes 100% of its students to coding instruction while 90% of America's school principals view it as unneeded

germany recognizes that by middle school, the students' academic record is a good indicator whether each child should commence a trades development program, or continue with a general education thru high school, or whether the student should be placed in a college prep track
with few exceptions, our high school curriculum assumes all children are on a college prep track. unfortunately, many are without the aptitude and/or interest in going on to pursue a four year degree. the result being that the teachers are instructing a sizable portion of students without the aptitude and/or interest in their college prep course work. unfortunately, the students who are interested in learning that material are having their educations diminished by the need to teach to the lowest common denominator in the room

our schools have wonderful football fields while the teachers have to purchase supplies, because the school budget is inadequate to fund the educators' needs for them. which illustrates that the money appropriated for education is often misallocated. the advent of consuming public school monies to underwrite the operation of private charter schools further diminishes the availability of monies needed to provide our most at risk students with the education they need

then there is the obligation of the public schools to teach less able students in the mainstream. fiddy will disagree with me, but this further denies the better able students access to an adequate education - again because instruction is directed towards the least able student in the room

maybe it is time to totally reconstruct our public school system, and fold in to a much greater degree, access to information provided to our students via the internet

so, yes, the ed system needs a kick in the ass - but not because it "indoctrinates" students. but because it is failing them without giving them an "F" on their report cards
 
the public education system could certainly be improved. using a private voucher system to divert funds and encourage it to fail faster is not improving the public system, and that's the main strategy being employed. either way, my point stands. my parents taught kids English and math and did whatever they could to make sure that those kids had the best opportunity to go to college or to enter vocational careers. that's not "indoctrination," and whenever i see someone spouting that nonsense, it pisses me off.

I am not suggesting that the "indoctrination" occurring is anywhere remotely approaching that seen in much of popular literature such as "The Giver", "1984", ect. ect. Rather, I am submitting it is much more like "The Matrix" in which the people "unplugged" are vastly outnumbered by the people "plugged in". The adults/parents that are "plugged in" are not wicked, rather they (generally speaking) are doing what they see as the correct course of action is for the children/youth--which, based on their highly, fundamentally flawed worldview, necessarily indoctrinates the children/youth (unless the youth are able to finds the means to "unplug" on their own (or happen to have adults in their life that are "unplugged" that can help guide them/raise relevant questions/ect.)). Also, there are many useful skills learned in the education system which I think is what you are focusing in on the most (Note: my fundamental criticism is equally relevant to the overwhelming majority of Private schools as well), some of which have been mentioned by other members that will help the youth more properly navigate "The Matrix" program--the issue is that there is a Matrix program to begin with (which is not the Schools' fault, but rather societies at large) and/or there are not tools in place to potentially help them "unplug" (as most adults don't have any idea what that would even mean or look like).

Out of curiosity (and to continue this discussion, if you would like), what were your thoughts concerning my discussion of the Higher Education system? (Note: I am from the USA and this is my perspective-bias. Also, I understand why based on my title it may appear that I am singling out k-12 Public schools, but this is not necessarily the case)
 
No, the public school systems aren't designed to be indoctrination centers, but that's what the liberal / progressive / leftists / SJWs have slowly but surely turn them into.

You have to keep asking yourself, 'what part of education is political?' (other than studies of political science).

Additionally, the people that this education system produces are the same ones who need safe spaces when any of their beliefs are challenged; are triggered when a pro-Trump message is chalked on a sidewalk, and need therapy.

These are the people we are expecting to be able, to be capable, to lead the nation as the next generation? :lamo
 
Last edited:
No, the public school systems aren't designed to be indoctrination centers, but that's what the liberal / progressive / leftists / SJWs have slowly but surely turn them into.

You have to keep asking yourself, 'what part of education is political?' (other than studies of political science).

then answer your own question:
what part of education is political?
 
then answer your own question:

From my view the only part of education that has a need to be political is studies in political science. The rest should be apolitical, purposefully even handed.
 
From my view the only part of education that has a need to be political is studies in political science. The rest should be apolitical, purposefully even handed.
and beyond political science studies what is being taught which is found politically indoctrinating?
 
I was commenting on the thread in general. I am with Helix. I'm pro public schools and not a fan of the voucher system. My sister is a well loved high school English teacher.

Thanks for clarifying.

Now, I am not against Public Schools as a program at all (although I certainly understand how it may have seemed that way based on the thread title), rather I am motioning that fundamental societal reform is necessary, and that the deep issues faced in our society are vitiating our Educational systems to the an unacceptable and dangerous extent (i.e. the schools are designed to have the youth to generally understand the rules of the current society and acclimate them into it, however it is the society itself that is the issue). I do not at all doubt that your sister is a loved English teacher (I have had teachers (mostly at Public/State Uni.) that I highly like/greatly respect), the problem is that she necessarily has to work inside of the framework that has already been established and if she deviates from it, they will find a replacement that agrees to oblige to the framework. That is, there are many useful tools that can be taught that never fundamentally challenge the framework in place and she can potentially "plant seeds" of thought that could help a student "unplug"--however if challenges are too overt than there is going to be a big problem (as this is not the intended purpose of the system).
 
From my view the only part of education that has a need to be political is studies in political science. The rest should be apolitical, purposefully even handed.

How would your version of "even-handed" differ from the present system?
 
How would your version of "even-handed" differ from the present system?

If, in the rare cases when politics comes up outside off political science studies, both views or a verity of views need to be presented without any single view being denigrated nor promoted (it is, after all, a non-political science topic). If the student has more questions, they can discuss those with their parents / adult family members.
 
No, the public school systems aren't designed to be indoctrination centers, but that's what the liberal / progressive / leftists / SJWs have slowly but surely turn them into.

You have to keep asking yourself, 'what part of education is political?' (other than studies of political science).

Additionally, the people that this education system produces are the same ones who need safe spaces when any of their beliefs are challenged; are triggered when a pro-Trump message is chalked on a sidewalk, and need therapy.

These are the people we are expecting to be able, to be capable, to lead the nation as the next generation? :lamo

@eohrnberger

I think that you make many solid observations in your post, although you are neglecting to mention the other side (i.e. PC behavior from the Right that is stifling open/honest intellectual investigation/exploration--I confronted this topic in my larger post(s))
 
Back
Top Bottom