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What it would take for me to believe in a god [W:73:222]

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pinqy

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I posted this thread in a different message board, but given some recent threads, I thought it would be appropriate here, as well.

Now, I'm only speaking for myself, as I know many atheists have said that they are not aware of anything that could convince them a god exists, but I've thought about it and here's what would convince me:
  • An objective definition of what a god would be, and what its properties would be, and a source and reason for that definition. (A description of a god already presumed to exist does not count.)
  • A method of objectively verifying that a proposed god does exist in a meaningful way. (God is an idea, or God is Nature would not be meaningful, independent existence and certainly not subject to verification)
  • A method of testing whether any proposed god matches the definition, and has the proposed properties.


Note that for the definition, any other terms that are not concretely defined or explained would also have to be defined or explained. For example: "God is a spirit". Well, what's a spirit and how can we determine whether or not something is a spirit? "God exists outside the universe." How do we know there is an "outside" to the universe and how could we know something is there?

I'm not claiming my criteria are perfect, and it's quite possible I have some error in my reasoning* so I certainly welcome reasoned corrections and/or additions.

And from the theists, I am curious if y'all think these criteria are reasonable, without pre-supposing the existence or possibility of the existence of any gods.
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

Seems like a reasonable set of criteria.
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

On a more mundane level, god taking over every TV screen, cell phone, computer screen and tablet in the world and announcing his presence would work for me.
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

Yeah, some wanna get hit over the head by God or get a good swift kick in the rear to believe...that day's a comin'...
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

Elvira said:
Yeah, some wanna get hit over the head by God or get a good swift kick in the rear to believe...that day's a comin'...
Click to expand...

Have you nothing of value to add to the thread? Your end of the world fantasies are not relevant.
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

zyzygy said:
On a more mundane level, god taking over every TV screen, cell phone, computer screen and tablet in the world and announcing his presence would work for me.
Click to expand...

How could we know that was a god rather than some non-god superior alien intelligence?
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

pinqy said:
How could we know that was a god rather than some non-god superior alien intelligence?
Click to expand...

A very good point. We wouldn't know. Some world-wide miracle? Every amputee grows a limb and all the sick children cured.
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

Elvira said:
Yeah, some wanna get hit over the head by God or get a good swift kick in the rear to believe...that day's a comin'...
Click to expand...

Many Christians claim that God did (figuratively) hit them over the head with a direct experience. So if God has in fact done that to some, like Moses, Abraham, Noah, Job, Paul, and some of the OT prophets, or indirectly through angels, like with Lot, Hagar, Joshua, Jacob, Mohamed, Joseph Smith, and then there are multiple claims of apparitions of Mary in Catholic tradition.

So why look down on those who would need similar occurrences?

But my criteria don’t require direct interaction like that.
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

pinqy said:
Many Christians claim that God did (figuratively) hit them over the head with a direct experience. So if God has in fact done that to some, like Moses, Abraham, Noah, Job, Paul, and some of the OT prophets, or indirectly through angels, like with Lot, Hagar, Joshua, Jacob, Mohamed, Joseph Smith, and then there are multiple claims of apparitions of Mary in Catholic tradition.

So why look down on those who would need similar occurrences?

But my criteria don’t require direct interaction like that.
Click to expand...

I would prefer to see direct interaction but the OP is yours so I will respect it.
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

pinqy said:
Many Christians claim that God did (figuratively) hit them over the head with a direct experience. So if God has in fact done that to some, like Moses, Abraham, Noah, Job, Paul, and some of the OT prophets, or indirectly through angels, like with Lot, Hagar, Joshua, Jacob, Mohamed, Joseph Smith, and then there are multiple claims of apparitions of Mary in Catholic tradition.

So why look down on those who would need similar occurrences?

But my criteria don’t require direct interaction like that.
Click to expand...

Well, if you are waiting for some miracle or for God to directly speak to you, you may be waiting awhile...we do not see God performing such miracles today because all things needed are present and available to the literate population of the world, and to help those who cannot read but who will listen, there are mature Christians who have knowledge and wisdom gained by study and experience...there is no excuse for anyone to not be able to come to know God today...it is not necessary for God to perform such miracles to attest to Jesus Christ as God’s appointed deliverer, or to provide proof that He is backing up His servants...even if God were to perform miracles or continue to give his servants the ability to perform miracles, that would not convince everyone, for not all the eyewitnesses of Jesus’ miracles were moved to accept his teachings...John 12:9-11...scoffers are warned by the Bible that there will yet be stupendous acts of God performed in the destruction of the present system of things...2 Peter 3:1-10; Revelation chapters 18, 19...by then it will be too late to act...
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

pinqy said:
How could we know that was a god rather than some non-god superior alien intelligence?
Click to expand...

How do we know God isn't one? He/she/it's not from around here.
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

i doubt that there's ever going to be a peer reviewed paper that proves the existence of God. i'm ok with that. i'm also ok with people who believe or don't believe, as long as they don't get pushy about it and start outgrouping a bunch of people because of it. edit to add : i'm far from perfect when it comes to not outgrouping.
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

pinqy said:
I posted this thread in a different message board, but given some recent threads, I thought it would be appropriate here, as well.

Now, I'm only speaking for myself, as I know many atheists have said that they are not aware of anything that could convince them a god exists, but I've thought about it and here's what would convince me:
  • An objective definition of what a god would be, and what its properties would be, and a source and reason for that definition. (A description of a god already presumed to exist does not count.)
  • A method of objectively verifying that a proposed god does exist in a meaningful way. (God is an idea, or God is Nature would not be meaningful, independent existence and certainly not subject to verification)
  • A method of testing whether any proposed god matches the definition, and has the proposed properties.


Note that for the definition, any other terms that are not concretely defined or explained would also have to be defined or explained. For example: "God is a spirit". Well, what's a spirit and how can we determine whether or not something is a spirit? "God exists outside the universe." How do we know there is an "outside" to the universe and how could we know something is there?

I'm not claiming my criteria are perfect, and it's quite possible I have some error in my reasoning* so I certainly welcome reasoned corrections and/or additions.

And from the theists, I am curious if y'all think these criteria are reasonable, without pre-supposing the existence or possibility of the existence of any gods.
Click to expand...

"The eye through which you see God is the same eye through which He sees you.'
-Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi-

My question is, why should anyone else care about convincing you? It's obvious that belief or disbelief in God is a personal issue. Every atheist, as you said, has their own set of criteria. It'd be a foolish deist who took your challenge, wouldn't it, with all it's uncertain, ambiguous 'definitions'. And a God who cared to prove His divinity to you might make an interesting Norse saga or Greek myth but, well, you know...
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

pinqy said:
An objective definition of what a god would be, and what its properties would be, and a source and reason for that definition. (A description of a god already presumed to exist does not count.)
Click to expand...

Love. Source and reason: empathy.

A method of objectively verifying that a proposed god does exist in a meaningful way. (God is an idea, or God is Nature would not be meaningful, independent existence and certainly not subject to verification)
Click to expand...

Self evident.

A method of testing whether any proposed god matches the definition, and has the proposed properties.
Click to expand...

Nothing like it.


Doesn't have to be a deity, right?
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

zyzygy said:
A very good point. We wouldn't know. Some world-wide miracle? Every amputee grows a limb and all the sick children cured.
Click to expand...

Still could be aliens. I don't think 'could be aliens' is avoidable.
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

Elvira said:
Well, if you are waiting for some miracle or for God to directly speak to you, you may be waiting awhile...we do not see God performing such miracles today because all things needed are present and available to the literate population of the world,
Click to expand...
But people do report direct interactions.

In any case, I gave my criteria in the OP. I’m not asking for miracles: just a definition, and a way to demonstrate existence.
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

Elvira said:
Well, if you are waiting for some miracle or for God to directly speak to you, you may be waiting awhile...we do not see God performing such miracles today because all things needed are present and available to the literate population of the world, and to help those who cannot read but who will listen, there are mature Christians who have knowledge and wisdom gained by study and experience...there is no excuse for anyone to not be able to come to know God today...it is not necessary for God to perform such miracles to attest to Jesus Christ as God’s appointed deliverer, or to provide proof that He is backing up His servants...even if God were to perform miracles or continue to give his servants the ability to perform miracles, that would not convince everyone, for not all the eyewitnesses of Jesus’ miracles were moved to accept his teachings...John 12:9-11...scoffers are warned by the Bible that there will yet be stupendous acts of God performed in the destruction of the present system of things...2 Peter 3:1-10; Revelation chapters 18, 19...by then it will be too late to act...
Click to expand...

nope you and your holy book being filled with some **** is quite possible
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

Elvira said:
Well, if you are waiting for some miracle or for God to directly speak to you, you may be waiting awhile...we do not see God performing such miracles today because all things needed are present and available to the literate population of the world, and to help those who cannot read but who will listen, there are mature Christians who have knowledge and wisdom gained by study and experience...there is no excuse for anyone to not be able to come to know God today...it is not necessary for God to perform such miracles to attest to Jesus Christ as God’s appointed deliverer, or to provide proof that He is backing up His servants...even if God were to perform miracles or continue to give his servants the ability to perform miracles, that would not convince everyone, for not all the eyewitnesses of Jesus’ miracles were moved to accept his teachings...John 12:9-11...scoffers are warned by the Bible that there will yet be stupendous acts of God performed in the destruction of the present system of things...2 Peter 3:1-10; Revelation chapters 18, 19...by then it will be too late to act...
Click to expand...

So god no longer interacts with us because there's enough objective evidence for us to find it without it? Which god is this? There are hundreds of different religions with different religious texts that all contradict each other. How do we identify the one true religion out of all of these? What objective measure can I pick the right one and be confident? You chose the one you like or were raised in and are now pretending it's objectively evident.

Grand Mal said:
"The eye through which you see God is the same eye through which He sees you.'
-Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi-

My question is, why should anyone else care about convincing you? It's obvious that belief or disbelief in God is a personal issue. Every atheist, as you said, has their own set of criteria. It'd be a foolish deist who took your challenge, wouldn't it, with all it's uncertain, ambiguous 'definitions'. And a God who cared to prove His divinity to you might make an interesting Norse saga or Greek myth but, well, you know...
Click to expand...

Well why doesn't that totally non-foolish deity just give us one single shred of objective evidence that proves his existence? He doesn't need to jump through hopes, but as of now we have exactly nothing. Instead we have hundreds of different religions all with wildly different interpretations of god and the universe, and instead of just providing evidence that for instance Hinduism is the one true religion he leaves it ambiguous and impossible to prove one religion right over the other.
 
Last edited:
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

pinqy said:
I posted this thread in a different message board, but given some recent threads, I thought it would be appropriate here, as well.

Now, I'm only speaking for myself, as I know many atheists have said that they are not aware of anything that could convince them a god exists, but I've thought about it and here's what would convince me:
  • An objective definition of what a god would be, and what its properties would be, and a source and reason for that definition. (A description of a god already presumed to exist does not count.)
  • A method of objectively verifying that a proposed god does exist in a meaningful way. (God is an idea, or God is Nature would not be meaningful, independent existence and certainly not subject to verification)
  • A method of testing whether any proposed god matches the definition, and has the proposed properties.


Note that for the definition, any other terms that are not concretely defined or explained would also have to be defined or explained. For example: "God is a spirit". Well, what's a spirit and how can we determine whether or not something is a spirit? "God exists outside the universe." How do we know there is an "outside" to the universe and how could we know something is there?

I'm not claiming my criteria are perfect, and it's quite possible I have some error in my reasoning* so I certainly welcome reasoned corrections and/or additions.

And from the theists, I am curious if y'all think these criteria are reasonable, without pre-supposing the existence or possibility of the existence of any gods.
Click to expand...

In a certain way Gödel provided proof that your first criterium might be impossible for subsets of the Univers. The second is available to you and the third, depending on the first criterium is circular and therefore probably a priori impossible.
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

Helix said:
i doubt that there's ever going to be a peer reviewed paper that proves the existence of God. i'm ok with that. i'm also ok with people who believe or don't believe, as long as they don't get pushy about it and start outgrouping a bunch of people because of it. edit to add : i'm far from perfect when it comes to not outgrouping.
Click to expand...

I am cool with all 4 points. ;)
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

pinqy said:
I posted this thread in a different message board, but given some recent threads, I thought it would be appropriate here, as well.

Now, I'm only speaking for myself, as I know many atheists have said that they are not aware of anything that could convince them a god exists, but I've thought about it and here's what would convince me:
  • An objective definition of what a god would be, and what its properties would be, and a source and reason for that definition. (A description of a god already presumed to exist does not count.)
  • A method of objectively verifying that a proposed god does exist in a meaningful way. (God is an idea, or God is Nature would not be meaningful, independent existence and certainly not subject to verification)
  • A method of testing whether any proposed god matches the definition, and has the proposed properties.


Note that for the definition, any other terms that are not concretely defined or explained would also have to be defined or explained. For example: "God is a spirit". Well, what's a spirit and how can we determine whether or not something is a spirit? "God exists outside the universe." How do we know there is an "outside" to the universe and how could we know something is there?

I'm not claiming my criteria are perfect, and it's quite possible I have some error in my reasoning* so I certainly welcome reasoned corrections and/or additions.

And from the theists, I am curious if y'all think these criteria are reasonable, without pre-supposing the existence or possibility of the existence of any gods.
Click to expand...

I think these are three very valid criteria for belief in a god.

I would accept those, as well, as my own criteria for believing in a god.

Unfortunately, I've never seen anything come remotely close to answering those three in a positive manner.
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

RabidAlpaca said:
So god no longer interacts with us because there's enough objective evidence for us to find it without it? Which god is this? There are hundreds of different religions with different religious texts that all contradict each other. How do we identify the one true religion out of all of these? What objective measure can I pick the right one and be confident? You chose the one you like or were raised in and are now pretending it's objectively evident.


Well why doesn't that totally non-foolish deity just give us one single shred of objective evidence that proves his existence? He doesn't need to jump through hopes, but as of now we have exactly nothing. Instead we have hundreds of different religions all with wildly different interpretations of god and the universe, and instead of just providing evidence that for instance Hinduism is the one true religion he leaves it ambiguous and impossible to prove one religion right over the other.
Click to expand...

First off, I was not raised a JW...growing up we attended many different churches...Baptist, Church of God, Assembly of God, Pentecostal Holiness...I made my decision through my own personal study of the Bible, directly from the Bible, I learned how to identify what and how to serve God in the right way...if what you believe contradicts what the Bible says, then it is wrong...the Bible is in full harmony, there are no contradictions, when read/studied/understood in the right way...

As to identifying the one true religion, here is an article for you to read on this very subject...

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2011568?q=one+true+religion&p=par
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

Elvira said:
First off, I was not raised a JW...growing up we attended many different churches...Baptist, Church of God, Assembly of God, Pentecostal Holiness...I made my decision through my own personal study of the Bible, directly from the Bible, I learned how to identify what and how to serve God in the right way...if what you believe contradicts what the Bible says, then it is wrong...the Bible is in full harmony, there are no contradictions, when read/studied/understood in the right way...

As to identifying the one true religion, here is an article for you to read on this very subject...

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2011568?q=one+true+religion&p=par
Click to expand...

So nothing would stop you having faith?
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

Elvira said:
First off, I was not raised a JW...growing up we attended many different churches...Baptist, Church of God, Assembly of God, Pentecostal Holiness...I made my decision through my own personal study of the Bible, directly from the Bible, I learned how to identify what and how to serve God in the right way...if what you believe contradicts what the Bible says, then it is wrong...the Bible is in full harmony, there are no contradictions, when read/studied/understood in the right way...

As to identifying the one true religion, here is an article for you to read on this very subject...

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2011568?q=one+true+religion&p=par
Click to expand...

Cult propaganda.
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

Elvira said:
First off, I was not raised a JW...growing up we attended many different churches...Baptist, Church of God, Assembly of God, Pentecostal Holiness...I made my decision through my own personal study of the Bible, directly from the Bible, I learned how to identify what and how to serve God in the right way...if what you believe contradicts what the Bible says, then it is wrong...the Bible is in full harmony, there are no contradictions, when read/studied/understood in the right way...
As to identifying the one true religion, here is an article for you to read on this very subject...
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2011568?q=one+true+religion&p=par
Click to expand...

So instead of addressing anything I said, you spend an entire paragraph defending your own biblical beliefs as arbitrarily chosen by yourself then redirect me to a Jehovah's Witness website.

There is no way to prove any religion more right than any other religion, it is 100% subjective. If there were a real god expecting us to pick the right religion of hundreds, he'd give an objective indication as to which is right. If you were born literally anywhere outside of the Christian sphere of influence in the world you'd be something else entirely.
 
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