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What it would take for me to believe in a god [W:73:222]

Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

In a certain way Gödel provided proof that your first criterium might be impossible for subsets of the Univers.
Which way? And grammar Nazi time, “criteria” is Greek, not Latin, so the singular is “criterion”

The second is available to you
Unless you’re specifically referring to Jesus, no it’s not.

and the third, depending on the first criterium is circular and therefore probably a priori impossible.
It shouldn’t be circular. I’m talking about a definition of a god, verifiable existence of a being, and whether that being fits the definition. Julius Caesar existed. Does he fit the definition of a god? If yes, then we can say a god existed.
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

Yeah, some wanna get hit over the head by God or get a good swift kick in the rear to believe...that day's a comin'...

Oh look, more idiotic empty threats. :roll:
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

First off, I was not raised a JW...growing up we attended many different churches...Baptist, Church of God, Assembly of God, Pentecostal Holiness...I made my decision through my own personal study of the Bible, directly from the Bible, I learned how to identify what and how to serve God in the right way...if what you believe contradicts what the Bible says, then it is wrong...the Bible is in full harmony, there are no contradictions, when read/studied/understood in the right way...

As to identifying the one true religion, here is an article for you to read on this very subject...

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2011568?q=one+true+religion&p=par

To assert that there are no contradictions in the bible is to lie.

Tell me, what does the bible say about lies?
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

So nothing would stop you having faith?

Of course not, because religious faith is fanaticism. There is something seriously wrong with these people and they're proud of it.
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

I posted this thread in a different message board, but given some recent threads, I thought it would be appropriate here, as well.

Now, I'm only speaking for myself, as I know many atheists have said that they are not aware of anything that could convince them a god exists, but I've thought about it and here's what would convince me:
  • An objective definition of what a god would be, and what its properties would be, and a source and reason for that definition. (A description of a god already presumed to exist does not count.)
  • A method of objectively verifying that a proposed god does exist in a meaningful way. (God is an idea, or God is Nature would not be meaningful, independent existence and certainly not subject to verification)
  • A method of testing whether any proposed god matches the definition, and has the proposed properties.


Note that for the definition, any other terms that are not concretely defined or explained would also have to be defined or explained. For example: "God is a spirit". Well, what's a spirit and how can we determine whether or not something is a spirit? "God exists outside the universe." How do we know there is an "outside" to the universe and how could we know something is there?

I'm not claiming my criteria are perfect, and it's quite possible I have some error in my reasoning* so I certainly welcome reasoned corrections and/or additions.

And from the theists, I am curious if y'all think these criteria are reasonable, without pre-supposing the existence or possibility of the existence of any gods.

It would not take much for me to believe in a god I am 100% sure does not exist. All it takes is a need to reach out for something godlike. An incurable disease, a death to a loved one, being trapped in a foxhole with bombs blowing up all around me, that sort of thing.

Belief in god, IMO, is simply handing control over to an imaginary thing. It's admitting that circumstances are beyond your own personal control without totally giving up the illusion of some control--praying to god does exactly that.
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

Oh look, more idiotic empty threats. :roll:

Yes, that's all she has, coupled with the fictional bible quotes.
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

First off, I was not raised a JW...growing up we attended many different churches...Baptist, Church of God, Assembly of God, Pentecostal Holiness...I made my decision through my own personal study of the Bible, directly from the Bible, I learned how to identify what and how to serve God in the right way...if what you believe contradicts what the Bible says, then it is wrong...the Bible is in full harmony, there are no contradictions, when read/studied/understood in the right way...

As to identifying the one true religion, here is an article for you to read on this very subject...

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2011568?q=one+true+religion&p=par

So, by your own admission, you never gave atheism a chance. You've always belonged to one cult or another until you found one which suits your needs. Now, if you said that, it would at least be an honest assessment of your situation.
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

No contradictions, lol. This is just a sample.

GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.

GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.
GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.

GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.

GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.

GE 1:26 Man is to have dominion over fish, birds, cattle, and all wild animals, yet--
GE 2:15-17 It is wrong to be able to tell good from evil, right from wrong.

GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.
GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.

GE 1:28 God encourages reproduction.
LE 12:1-8 God requires purification rites following childbirth which, in effect, makes childbirth a sin. (Note: The period for purification following the birth of a daughter is twice that for a son.)

GE 1:31 God was pleased with his creation.
GE 6:5-6 God was not pleased with his creation.

Elvira? Does studying the bible involve ignoring the many obvious contradictions?
 
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Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

To assert that there are no contradictions in the bible is to lie.

Tell me, what does the bible say about lies?

She did qualify with “when read/studied/understood in the right way.” Which is true. I have heard an explanation for every contradiction which, if true, would resolve the contradictions. Of course the only reason to accept these explanations as the correct explanations is to presuppose that there are no real contradictions. And many of the resolutions require great stretches of the imagination to my mind.
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

She did qualify with “when read/studied/understood in the right way.” Which is true. I have heard an explanation for every contradiction which, if true, would resolve the contradictions. Of course the only reason to accept these explanations as the correct explanations is to presuppose that there are no real contradictions. And many of the resolutions require great stretches of the imagination to my mind.
It involves doublethink.
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

Ned Flanders: [talking to God after his house is destroyed] Why me, Lord? I've always been good. I don't drink or dance or swear, I've even kept kosher just to be on the safe side. I've done everything the Bible says! Even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! What more can I do? I... I... I feel like I'm coming apart here! I wanna yell out, but I just can't dang-darn-diddly-darn-dang-ding-dong-diddly-darned do it! I just... I...
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

She did qualify with “when read/studied/understood in the right way.” Which is true. I have heard an explanation for every contradiction which, if true, would resolve the contradictions. Of course the only reason to accept these explanations as the correct explanations is to presuppose that there are no real contradictions. And many of the resolutions require great stretches of the imagination to my mind.

True. And the 'right way' to read them is sober, with a mind trained in critical thinking and abstract thought.

And yet in doing so, those contradictions stay right there ;-)
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

Ned Flanders: [talking to God after his house is destroyed] Why me, Lord? I've always been good. I don't drink or dance or swear, I've even kept kosher just to be on the safe side. I've done everything the Bible says! Even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! What more can I do? I... I... I feel like I'm coming apart here! I wanna yell out, but I just can't dang-darn-diddly-darn-dang-ding-dong-diddly-darned do it! I just... I...

Poor old Ned. God even took Maude from him.
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

True. And the 'right way' to read them is sober, with a mind trained in critical thinking and abstract thought.

And yet in doing so, those contradictions stay right there ;-)

With one's critical faculties engaged the contradictions are obvious.
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

Yes, that's all she has, coupled with the fictional bible quotes.

Of course, it doesn't matter which of the god-squad you're talking about, all they have are empty threats and mindless blind faith. They seem to be completely ignorant of how ridiculous they look too.
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

Of course, it doesn't matter which of the god-squad you're talking about, all they have are empty threats and mindless blind faith. They seem to be completely ignorant of how ridiculous they look too.

Especially when one considers her sect's many failed end of the world prophecies. Both she and Logicman seem to take great delight at the thought of others suffering eternal torment. Very odd.
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

Especially when one considers her sect's many failed end of the world prophecies. Both she and Logicman seem to take great delight at the thought of others suffering eternal torment. Very odd.

I was actually looking and you know there are something like 5 failed end-of-the-world predictions in the past month alone? I mean the world was supposed to end yesterday. Again. This whole thing is absolutely idiotic, but look who believes it.
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

I was actually looking and you know there are something like 5 failed end-of-the-world predictions in the past month alone? I mean the world was supposed to end yesterday. Again. This whole thing is absolutely idiotic, but look who believes it.

Yes, I find it astounding that people can believe the end of the world nonsense. The list of failed prophecies from various cults and sects is a long one.
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

Yeah, some wanna get hit over the head by God or get a good swift kick in the rear to believe...that day's a comin'...

I would accept a polite introduction. Maybe it will happen one day.

As an aside, the only person I ever knew who I think really believed he talked directly with God was a guy I knew in high school. He took acid. God appeared to him and told him not to do drugs. He, to my knowledge, never took drugs again. True story.:)
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

I would accept a polite introduction. Maybe it will happen one day.

As an aside, the only person I ever knew who I think really believed he talked directly with God was a guy I knew in high school. He took acid. God appeared to him and told him not to do drugs. He, to my knowledge, never took drugs again. True story.:)

And, a good one, at that.
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

I would accept a polite introduction. Maybe it will happen one day.

As an aside, the only person I ever knew who I think really believed he talked directly with God was a guy I knew in high school. He took acid. God appeared to him and told him not to do drugs. He, to my knowledge, never took drugs again. True story.:)

She appears to be incapable of carrying out an adult discussion so she resorts to these childish threats. Logicman follows the same procedure.
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

I get the whole believe in god thing. After all, this verse sums it up perfectly.

I can't help about the shape I'm in
I can't sing, I ain't pretty and my legs are thin
But don't ask me what I think of you
I might not give the answer that you want me to

Now, when I talked to God, I knew He'd understand
He said, "Stick by my side and I'll be your guiding hand
But don't ask me what I think of you
I might not give the answer that you want me to"

Ooh, well

Fleetwood Mac, pre the two hot chicks (well one was hot; the other, not so much, I guess) years.
 
Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

I would accept a polite introduction. Maybe it will happen one day.

As an aside, the only person I ever knew who I think really believed he talked directly with God was a guy I knew in high school. He took acid. God appeared to him and told him not to do drugs. He, to my knowledge, never took drugs again. True story.:)

Many years ago when I lived in Merthyr Tydfil I knew a guy called Mike who flipped and came into the pub one afternoon and announced that he was the son of god. We tried to reason with him, then he left the pub and and started telling people on the street that he was the son of god. If they ignored him he tied to punch them. He was picked up by the police, sectioned and we never saw him again.
 
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