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Thread: What it would take for me to believe in a god [W:73:222]

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    Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

    Quote Originally Posted by pinqy View Post
    How could we know that was a god rather than some non-god superior alien intelligence?
    How do we know God isn't one? He/she/it's not from around here.
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    Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

    i doubt that there's ever going to be a peer reviewed paper that proves the existence of God. i'm ok with that. i'm also ok with people who believe or don't believe, as long as they don't get pushy about it and start outgrouping a bunch of people because of it. edit to add : i'm far from perfect when it comes to not outgrouping.

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    Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

    Quote Originally Posted by pinqy View Post
    I posted this thread in a different message board, but given some recent threads, I thought it would be appropriate here, as well.

    Now, I'm only speaking for myself, as I know many atheists have said that they are not aware of anything that could convince them a god exists, but I've thought about it and here's what would convince me:
    • An objective definition of what a god would be, and what its properties would be, and a source and reason for that definition. (A description of a god already presumed to exist does not count.)
    • A method of objectively verifying that a proposed god does exist in a meaningful way. (God is an idea, or God is Nature would not be meaningful, independent existence and certainly not subject to verification)
    • A method of testing whether any proposed god matches the definition, and has the proposed properties.



    Note that for the definition, any other terms that are not concretely defined or explained would also have to be defined or explained. For example: "God is a spirit". Well, what's a spirit and how can we determine whether or not something is a spirit? "God exists outside the universe." How do we know there is an "outside" to the universe and how could we know something is there?

    I'm not claiming my criteria are perfect, and it's quite possible I have some error in my reasoning* so I certainly welcome reasoned corrections and/or additions.

    And from the theists, I am curious if y'all think these criteria are reasonable, without pre-supposing the existence or possibility of the existence of any gods.
    "The eye through which you see God is the same eye through which He sees you.'
    -Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi-

    My question is, why should anyone else care about convincing you? It's obvious that belief or disbelief in God is a personal issue. Every atheist, as you said, has their own set of criteria. It'd be a foolish deist who took your challenge, wouldn't it, with all it's uncertain, ambiguous 'definitions'. And a God who cared to prove His divinity to you might make an interesting Norse saga or Greek myth but, well, you know...
    "If she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do folks, though the Second Amendment people, maybe there is, I donít know.Ē
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    Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

    Quote Originally Posted by pinqy View Post
    An objective definition of what a god would be, and what its properties would be, and a source and reason for that definition. (A description of a god already presumed to exist does not count.)
    Love. Source and reason: empathy.

    A method of objectively verifying that a proposed god does exist in a meaningful way. (God is an idea, or God is Nature would not be meaningful, independent existence and certainly not subject to verification)
    Self evident.

    A method of testing whether any proposed god matches the definition, and has the proposed properties.
    Nothing like it.


    Doesn't have to be a deity, right?

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    Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

    Quote Originally Posted by zyzygy View Post
    A very good point. We wouldn't know. Some world-wide miracle? Every amputee grows a limb and all the sick children cured.
    Still could be aliens. I don't think 'could be aliens' is avoidable.

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    Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

    Quote Originally Posted by Elvira View Post
    Well, if you are waiting for some miracle or for God to directly speak to you, you may be waiting awhile...we do not see God performing such miracles today because all things needed are present and available to the literate population of the world,
    But people do report direct interactions.

    In any case, I gave my criteria in the OP. Iím not asking for miracles: just a definition, and a way to demonstrate existence.
    Therefore, since the world has still/Much good, but much less good than ill,
    And while the sun and moon endure/Luck's a chance, but trouble's sure,
    I'd face it as a wise man would,/And train for ill and not for good.

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    Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

    Quote Originally Posted by Elvira View Post
    Well, if you are waiting for some miracle or for God to directly speak to you, you may be waiting awhile...we do not see God performing such miracles today because all things needed are present and available to the literate population of the world, and to help those who cannot read but who will listen, there are mature Christians who have knowledge and wisdom gained by study and experience...there is no excuse for anyone to not be able to come to know God today...it is not necessary for God to perform such miracles to attest to Jesus Christ as Godís appointed deliverer, or to provide proof that He is backing up His servants...even if God were to perform miracles or continue to give his servants the ability to perform miracles, that would not convince everyone, for not all the eyewitnesses of Jesusí miracles were moved to accept his teachings...John 12:9-11...scoffers are warned by the Bible that there will yet be stupendous acts of God performed in the destruction of the present system of things...2 Peter 3:1-10; Revelation chapters 18, 19...by then it will be too late to act...
    nope you and your holy book being filled with some **** is quite possible

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    Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

    Quote Originally Posted by Elvira View Post
    Well, if you are waiting for some miracle or for God to directly speak to you, you may be waiting awhile...we do not see God performing such miracles today because all things needed are present and available to the literate population of the world, and to help those who cannot read but who will listen, there are mature Christians who have knowledge and wisdom gained by study and experience...there is no excuse for anyone to not be able to come to know God today...it is not necessary for God to perform such miracles to attest to Jesus Christ as God’s appointed deliverer, or to provide proof that He is backing up His servants...even if God were to perform miracles or continue to give his servants the ability to perform miracles, that would not convince everyone, for not all the eyewitnesses of Jesus’ miracles were moved to accept his teachings...John 12:9-11...scoffers are warned by the Bible that there will yet be stupendous acts of God performed in the destruction of the present system of things...2 Peter 3:1-10; Revelation chapters 18, 19...by then it will be too late to act...
    So god no longer interacts with us because there's enough objective evidence for us to find it without it? Which god is this? There are hundreds of different religions with different religious texts that all contradict each other. How do we identify the one true religion out of all of these? What objective measure can I pick the right one and be confident? You chose the one you like or were raised in and are now pretending it's objectively evident.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Mal View Post
    "The eye through which you see God is the same eye through which He sees you.'
    -Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi-

    My question is, why should anyone else care about convincing you? It's obvious that belief or disbelief in God is a personal issue. Every atheist, as you said, has their own set of criteria. It'd be a foolish deist who took your challenge, wouldn't it, with all it's uncertain, ambiguous 'definitions'. And a God who cared to prove His divinity to you might make an interesting Norse saga or Greek myth but, well, you know...
    Well why doesn't that totally non-foolish deity just give us one single shred of objective evidence that proves his existence? He doesn't need to jump through hopes, but as of now we have exactly nothing. Instead we have hundreds of different religions all with wildly different interpretations of god and the universe, and instead of just providing evidence that for instance Hinduism is the one true religion he leaves it ambiguous and impossible to prove one religion right over the other.
    Last edited by RabidAlpaca; 10-22-17 at 04:30 AM.

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    Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

    Quote Originally Posted by pinqy View Post
    I posted this thread in a different message board, but given some recent threads, I thought it would be appropriate here, as well.

    Now, I'm only speaking for myself, as I know many atheists have said that they are not aware of anything that could convince them a god exists, but I've thought about it and here's what would convince me:
    • An objective definition of what a god would be, and what its properties would be, and a source and reason for that definition. (A description of a god already presumed to exist does not count.)
    • A method of objectively verifying that a proposed god does exist in a meaningful way. (God is an idea, or God is Nature would not be meaningful, independent existence and certainly not subject to verification)
    • A method of testing whether any proposed god matches the definition, and has the proposed properties.



    Note that for the definition, any other terms that are not concretely defined or explained would also have to be defined or explained. For example: "God is a spirit". Well, what's a spirit and how can we determine whether or not something is a spirit? "God exists outside the universe." How do we know there is an "outside" to the universe and how could we know something is there?

    I'm not claiming my criteria are perfect, and it's quite possible I have some error in my reasoning* so I certainly welcome reasoned corrections and/or additions.

    And from the theists, I am curious if y'all think these criteria are reasonable, without pre-supposing the existence or possibility of the existence of any gods.
    In a certain way GŲdel provided proof that your first criterium might be impossible for subsets of the Univers. The second is available to you and the third, depending on the first criterium is circular and therefore probably a priori impossible.

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    Re: What it would take for me to believe in a god

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    i doubt that there's ever going to be a peer reviewed paper that proves the existence of God. i'm ok with that. i'm also ok with people who believe or don't believe, as long as they don't get pushy about it and start outgrouping a bunch of people because of it. edit to add : i'm far from perfect when it comes to not outgrouping.
    I am cool with all 4 points.

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