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Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.***[W:1682]****

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stevecanuck

stevecanuck

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Calling atheism a belief is absurd. It only 'exists' due to the ubiquity of belief in gods. If there were only a few theists in the world, their presence would not be noticeable, and therefore there would be no need to coin a term of negation. As it is though, it's hard to ignore the prattling of billions of believers, no matter how hard I try. I suppose we are also all ajaguarists since we do not share the belief of the remote Amazonian tribe who hold that bad people get reincarnated as jaguars. The only difference between Abrahamic theists and jaguarists is numbers and visibility. The list of a-whatever you are is as long as the list of religious beliefs.

But why do Abrahamics especially feel an apparently overwhelming need to call disbelief a belief? It's because there is already an endless list of competing beliefs, so simply adding one more is no big deal. Just bundle atheism with all the other 'wrong' beliefs, and away it goes down the chute with all the rest. Bob's your uncle. Their comfort zone is restricted to arguing over which belief is correct, not whether any belief is correct. The former allows them to stay snugly and smugly in the realm of supernatural creation while the latter does not. Just my opinion.
 
Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

stevecanuck said:
Calling atheism a belief is absurd. It only 'exists' due to the ubiquity of belief in gods. If there were only a few theists in the world, their presence would not be noticeable, and therefore there would be no need to coin a term of negation. As it is though, it's hard to ignore the prattling of billions of believers, no matter how hard I try. I suppose we are also all ajaguarists since we do not share the belief of the remote Amazonian tribe who hold that bad people get reincarnated as jaguars. The only difference between Abrahamic theists and jaguarists is numbers and visibility. The list of a-whatever you are is as long as the list of religious beliefs.

But why do Abrahamics especially feel an apparently overwhelming need to call disbelief a belief? It's because there is already an endless list of competing beliefs, so simply adding one more is no big deal. Just bundle atheism with all the other 'wrong' beliefs, and away it goes down the chute with all the rest. Bob's your uncle. Their comfort zone is restricted to arguing over which belief is correct, not whether any belief is correct. The former allows them to stay snugly and smugly in the realm of supernatural creation while the latter does not. Just my opinion.
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It seems to me that non-belief in a god implies a corollary belief in existence as a result of naturally occurring events.
 
Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

stevecanuck said:
Calling atheism a belief is absurd. It only 'exists' due to the ubiquity of belief in gods. If there were only a few theists in the world, their presence would not be noticeable, and therefore there would be no need to coin a term of negation. As it is though, it's hard to ignore the prattling of billions of believers, no matter how hard I try. I suppose we are also all ajaguarists since we do not share the belief of the remote Amazonian tribe who hold that bad people get reincarnated as jaguars. The only difference between Abrahamic theists and jaguarists is numbers and visibility. The list of a-whatever you are is as long as the list of religious beliefs.

But why do Abrahamics especially feel an apparently overwhelming need to call disbelief a belief? It's because there is already an endless list of competing beliefs, so simply adding one more is no big deal. Just bundle atheism with all the other 'wrong' beliefs, and away it goes down the chute with all the rest. Bob's your uncle. Their comfort zone is restricted to arguing over which belief is correct, not whether any belief is correct. The former allows them to stay snugly and smugly in the realm of supernatural creation while the latter does not. Just my opinion.
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I always find it comical how atheists are often so desperate to show that their's is not a belief. But it is also sad.
 
Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

joG said:
I always find it comical how atheists are often so desperate to show that their's is not a belief. But it is also sad.
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I actually hadn't heard this before.
I embrace it, I say atheism is clearly a belief.
 
Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

stevecanuck said:
Calling atheism a belief is absurd. It only 'exists' due to the ubiquity of belief in gods. If there were only a few theists in the world, their presence would not be noticeable, and therefore there would be no need to coin a term of negation. As it is though, it's hard to ignore the prattling of billions of believers, no matter how hard I try. I suppose we are also all ajaguarists since we do not share the belief of the remote Amazonian tribe who hold that bad people get reincarnated as jaguars. The only difference between Abrahamic theists and jaguarists is numbers and visibility. The list of a-whatever you are is as long as the list of religious beliefs.

But why do Abrahamics especially feel an apparently overwhelming need to call disbelief a belief? It's because there is already an endless list of competing beliefs, so simply adding one more is no big deal. Just bundle atheism with all the other 'wrong' beliefs, and away it goes down the chute with all the rest. Bob's your uncle. Their comfort zone is restricted to arguing over which belief is correct, not whether any belief is correct. The former allows them to stay snugly and smugly in the realm of supernatural creation while the latter does not. Just my opinion.
Click to expand...

I think putting it as "atheism isn't an assertion" is better than "atheism isn't a belief" though I think you are correct. The important thing isn't that atheists don't have an active belief regarding religion, but that they simply lack a belief in a god or religion. Therefor when I say I'm an atheist, I'm merely saying that I lack evidence or a valid reason to believe in god. When a theist says "I believe in god" he is saying that he believes he has a good and valid reason to believe in god. That means that if he wants others to also believe he must present that evidence just as with any other claim. It's not my job to prove why I don't have any evidence to believe in the monster in the lake. It's your job to show why we should believe.

EDIT: And I'd like to point out that clearly the reason that theists try to insist that atheism is a belief is that they are trying to shift the burden of proof. They want atheists to have to prove that there is no god, even though that's not the atheist position. They want to make atheists stand on the same crumbled foundation that they are on. For very obvious reasons. They don't like that the atheist position is on very firm logical footing.
 
Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

roughdraft274 said:
I think putting it as "atheism isn't an assertion" is better than "atheism isn't a belief" though I think you are correct. The important thing isn't that atheists don't have an active belief regarding religion, but that they simply lack a belief in a god or religion. Therefor when I say I'm an atheist, I'm merely saying that I lack evidence or a valid reason to believe in god. When a theist says "I believe in god" he is saying that he believes he has a good and valid reason to believe in god. That means that if he wants others to also believe he must present that evidence just as with any other claim. It's not my job to prove why I don't have any evidence to believe in the monster in the lake. It's your job to show why we should believe.

EDIT: And I'd like to point out that clearly the reason that theists try to insist that atheism is a belief is that they are trying to shift the burden of proof. They want atheists to have to prove that there is no god, even though that's not the atheist position. They want to make atheists stand on the same crumbled foundation that they are on. For very obvious reasons. They don't like that the atheist position is on very firm logical footing.
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The handy thing about faith is that it doesn't require proof. That frees up the theist from having to worry about it. Unless an atheist comes along and asserts that there is no god. You can't prove a negative so the atheist doesn't have to worry about it either. What remains is the question of existence. That is the question that theists answer with their belief in god.
 
Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

bearpoker said:
The handy thing about faith is that it doesn't require proof. That frees up the theist from having to worry about it.
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If you say so. The problem with that is that I can find you literally hundreds of thousands of videos, articles, posts, websites, books written with the purpose of providing "proof" of god. If you feel that faith in god makes your life more complete or happier then I say by all means do your thing. But I think I'm clearly justified in asking for evidence if you want my son taught to believe in god in school or something like that.

For me personally, I think faith is a useless tool if your only goal is to believe whats true. Technically there is nothing that you can't believe through faith. And no real mechanism to show that one faith is better than another. I have no tool that tells me that my buddies faith that fairies live in his garden is better or worse than your faith in god etc.
 
Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

joG said:
I always find it comical how atheists are often so desperate to show that their's is not a belief. But it is also sad.
Click to expand...

What's sad is that you have pretend that you find something comical that doesn't exist.

Atheism simply isn't a belief, no matter how hard you might stomp your feet in rage. It's the rejection of an unfounded assertion.
 
Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

roughdraft274 said:
If you say so. The problem with that is that I can find you literally hundreds of thousands of videos, articles, posts, websites, books written with the purpose of providing "proof" of god. If you feel that faith in god makes your life more complete or happier then I say by all means do your thing. But I think I'm clearly justified in asking for evidence if you want my son taught to believe in god in school or something like that.

For me personally, I think faith is a useless tool if your only goal is to believe whats true. Technically there is nothing that you can't believe through faith. And no real mechanism to show that one faith is better than another. I have no tool that tells me that my buddies faith that fairies live in his garden is better or worse than your faith in god etc.
Click to expand...

For the record I am totally opposed to teaching anything but science in science classes. I also don't think it's wise to try to argue for the existence of god in scientific terms.
 
Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

bearpoker said:
For the record I am totally opposed to teaching anything but science in science classes. I also don't think it's wise to try to argue for the existence of god in scientific terms.
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That reminds me of Kenny, the intern on 30 Rock, who said, "In high school, science was my favorite subject. Especially the OLD testament".
 
Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

joG said:
I always find it comical how atheists are often so desperate to show that their's is not a belief. But it is also sad.
Click to expand...

Calling it a belief implies it would exist independently of theism. You are suggesting that there would be people saying there is no god even if nobody ever said there were. That is ridiculous.
 
Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

stevecanuck said:
Calling atheism a belief is absurd. It only 'exists' due to the ubiquity of belief in gods. If there were only a few theists in the world, their presence would not be noticeable, and therefore there would be no need to coin a term of negation. As it is though, it's hard to ignore the prattling of billions of believers, no matter how hard I try. I suppose we are also all ajaguarists since we do not share the belief of the remote Amazonian tribe who hold that bad people get reincarnated as jaguars. The only difference between Abrahamic theists and jaguarists is numbers and visibility. The list of a-whatever you are is as long as the list of religious beliefs.

But why do Abrahamics especially feel an apparently overwhelming need to call disbelief a belief? It's because there is already an endless list of competing beliefs, so simply adding one more is no big deal. Just bundle atheism with all the other 'wrong' beliefs, and away it goes down the chute with all the rest. Bob's your uncle. Their comfort zone is restricted to arguing over which belief is correct, not whether any belief is correct. The former allows them to stay snugly and smugly in the realm of supernatural creation while the latter does not. Just my opinion.
Click to expand...

Whether it is correct? Define correct?

There is not factual evidence about any god or belief.

That is why they are called beliefs...
 
Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

Tanngrisnir said:
What's sad is that you have pretend that you find something comical that doesn't exist.

Atheism simply isn't a belief, no matter how hard you might stomp your feet in rage. It's the rejection of an unfounded assertion.
Click to expand...

Sure it is... it is an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof... that the absence of belief in the existence of deities is accurate.
 
Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

Bodhisattva said:
Sure it is... it is an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof... that the absence of belief in the existence of deities is accurate.
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No, it's simply not. It's not an a priori assumption that there is no God. The absence of a belief is itself not a belief.

This is really basic stuff that you seem awfully confused and ill-informed about.
 
Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

Tanngrisnir said:
No, it's simply not. It's not an a priori assumption that there is no God. The absence of a belief is itself not a belief.

This is really basic stuff that you seem awfully confused and ill-informed about.
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I thought we might have an insult free discussion about it... guess not.

Atheism, the absence of belief in the existence of deities ... is a presumption that it is correct. That meets the definition of a belief... it is an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.

Their belief is in the absence of belief.
 
Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

I think the confusion just boils down to perspective. If someone is religious they believe that a god or gods have always existed, and so they start from that perspective. When someone doesn't believe in a god they then view those people as actively going against something. From an atheists perspective man created god so not believing in god is the natural state of things.
 
Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

stevecanuck said:
Calling it a belief implies it would exist independently of theism. You are suggesting that there would be people saying there is no god even if nobody ever said there were. That is ridiculous.
Click to expand...

Um I don't think so...calling it a belief means you think it to be true...for example..."there is no god"...therefore it is your belief, is it not? And you cannot give any evidence to that belief, can you?
 
Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

Bodhisattva said:
I thought we might have an insult free discussion about it... guess not.

Atheism, the absence of belief in the existence of deities ... is a presumption that it is correct. That meets the definition of a belief... it is an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.

Their belief is in the absence of belief.
Click to expand...

Surely you jest...:giggle1:
 
Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

Atheism would be antithetical to a religious belief. It is a lack of a belief in God. However...since Atheism is still a foundation predicated on a belief that there is no God, then it is a 'belief'. What it is NOT is a "belief system".

but I think the lady doth protest too much. Who is it that is desperate to try to label Atheism a 'belief'? Fact is, the vast majority of time atheism OR theism is discussed, its usually spawned by an atheist or anti-theist.
 
Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

Bodhisattva said:
I thought we might have an insult free discussion about it... guess not.

Atheism, the absence of belief in the existence of deities ... is a presumption that it is correct. That meets the definition of a belief... it is an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.

Their belief is in the absence of belief.
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SIgh. I haven't insulted you, but I understand your need for that to be the case.

Disbelief in a proposition means that one does not believe it to be true. That's it. It's not a presumption of anything.

Not believing that something is true isn't the same thing, not even remotely, as believing that it is false.

The absence of a belief is not a belief. Words have meanings. Gobbledygook does not.
 
Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

Elvira said:
Um I don't think so...calling it a belief means you think it to be true...for example..."there is no god"...therefore it is your belief, is it not? And you cannot give any evidence to that belief, can you?
Click to expand...

There is no evidence for the existence of any god would be a better way of putting it.
 
Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

bearpoker said:
For the record I am totally opposed to teaching anything but science in science classes. I also don't think it's wise to try to argue for the existence of god in scientific terms.
Click to expand...

Because the God-side loses every time.
 
Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

Atheism is as much a belief as bald is a hair color. Not believing is simply that, not believing.

That many (but a far cry from ALL) theists want to get those devoid of belief in a god to admit that they believe there are no gods, is just going semantic in order to create equality. Where one may wonder why such "equality" need at all be established (I mean that I can't see how the one is worse or better than the other anyway), it often appears to lie in the desire of thus forming a basis from which the burden of proof can then be placed on the other side.

Well, I have no problem with anyone doing that, seeing how nobody should hold a monopoly on silliness.

It's up to the individual whether to give it merit or just dismiss it.

Beyond which I feel no compulsion to demand that theists constantly prove anything at all and when the faction of "Goddidit" and "bible says so" tries to use those as factual argument, the very same simply ends.
 
Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

Tanngrisnir said:
SIgh. I haven't insulted you, but I understand your need for that to be the case.
Click to expand...

Just passive aggressive... that's OK though.

Disbelief in a proposition means that one does not believe it to be true. That's it. It's not a presumption of anything.

Not believing that something is true isn't the same thing, not even remotely, as believing that it is false.

The absence of a belief is not a belief. Words have meanings. Gobbledygook does not.
Click to expand...

Atheism is not an absence of a belief... it is a belief that a belief is not valid or accurate.
 
Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

Elvira said:
Um I don't think so...calling it a belief means you think it to be true...for example..."there is no god"...therefore it is your belief, is it not? And you cannot give any evidence to that belief, can you?
Click to expand...
..........all of which goes to show that you have a long way to go before being sufficiently equipped to enter into arguments of logic.
 
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