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Arguments for the existence of God[W:740]

I don't understand. His post, so far as it has any relevance to the topic at all, was an ad hominem. Feser, or Plotinus, could have spent most saturday nights singing tunes from Gilbert and Sullivan whilst wearing pink tutus, and it wouldn't matter to the soundness of the argument. This is quite basic stuff.

And it is quite incorrect. It is making huge assumptions that can not be shown to be true. It is basically 'argument from assertion', and also is begging the question. There is no rational for the leap of logic of naming this 'oneness' God at all., nor are any of the steps that lead up to the concept of oneness being able to be supported as being true. It's basically declaring things to be true, making an unwarranted assumption to come to a foregone conclusion. It's patting oneself on the back on how clever one is, but means nothing.
 
This is assumed, for example, by natural science. The scientist, when faced with a phenomena, doesn't think it might have no explanation. He looks for its explanation, at least in some basic laws of nature. So to reject this premise is to endanger natural science.

But it is arguably worse than that. If one rejects this premise, or the principle of sufficient reason, then that means one accepts there may be brute facts in the universe - phenomena without any explanation at all. But those unexplained facts could be our beliefs, perceptions, etc. This would seem to undermine our confidence in our faculties and lead to radical scepticism.


As I said, you seem to be confusing the premise and the rest of the argument. The premise is simply there is a bottom level explanation for every thing in the universe, such as the laws of nature. The rest of the argument is to show this explanation can only be God.

The scientist, when faced with an unknown, does not make up characters to fulfill his need for a god. Nobody knows what the smallest particle in the universe is, nor has anyone shown this smallest particle makes up everything. Unless your argument is that the smallest particle makes up everything, is unique (only one) and thus god, your little proof is not saying what you think it says. The universe might be made up of some smallest particle, we don't know, but if it is, its certainly more than one and doesn't have the ability to think or be all knowing. You're basically just overwhelmed by the complexity of the universe so you fall back on primitive human hypotheses to explain existence.

Small particles making up everything does not prove god, nor are we sure that everything is made up of an elementary particle.
 
If god created the earth and the universe who or what created god?

If the universe could not just come from nothing, why not hold the same principle to god as well. If that holds true, if something created god, why could not that thing also created many gods

Now as to our importance to god.
If god exists and that god is singular, why create the vast universe, with who knows how many stars, and planets in it, just to populate one world, with only revealing its existence in a formal way approx. 3500 years ago. Why create the universe only to have such a minute part of it populated with worshippers (which this god seems to desire) when he could fill the universe with potential followers

Don't you think He has His hands full with humans on this little bitty planet? Why would He wanna create more trouble for Himself? :giggle1:

Seriously though, who's to say we are the only populated planet? There may be others, we don't know...maybe some day we will find out...will even be able to travel to them...
 
I don't understand. His post, so far as it has any relevance to the topic at all, was an ad hominem. Feser, or Plotinus, could have spent most saturday nights singing tunes from Gilbert and Sullivan whilst wearing pink tutus, and it wouldn't matter to the soundness of the argument. This is quite basic stuff.

The Cosmological Argument has been debunked almost since it was first offered. It simply isn't a sound argument to anyone familiar with it.

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that people keep trying to ressurect it from time to time.
 
Maybe. Why the need for 'arguments'? If god wished to make his existence known he could have easily done so at any time, by the simple expedient of telling his creatures something they did not already know.

The great majority of Swedes have long since shed their primitive superstitions, I am pleased to say.

Well He did make Himself known to Adam and Eve, they had direct contact/conversations with Him because they were perfect and needed no mediator, as we do today...just look how well that worked out...perhaps He wants servants who actually love Him, obey Him, and put their faith in Him, since actually revealing Himself did not accomplish that...
 
And it is quite incorrect. It is making huge assumptions that can not be shown to be true. It is basically 'argument from assertion', and also is begging the question. There is no rational for the leap of logic of naming this 'oneness' God at all., nor are any of the steps that lead up to the concept of oneness being able to be supported as being true. It's basically declaring things to be true, making an unwarranted assumption to come to a foregone conclusion. It's patting oneself on the back on how clever one is, but means nothing.

Indeed. It's an appeal to intution, and it amazes me how it's adherents don't or can't see that.
 
Well He did make Himself known to Adam and Eve, they had direct contact/conversations with Him because they were perfect and needed no mediator, as we do today...just look how well that worked out...perhaps He wants servants who actually love Him, obey Him, and put their faith in Him, since actually revealing Himself did not accomplish that...

That's not what the Vedas say.
 
If God exists then why do so so many evil things happen on Planet Earth?If God can't stop them then he's not omnipotent so he's not God.

If he could stop them but he doesn't then he's evil.

Who wants to worship an evil God? Not me.

I've explained His reasons in my own words here several times...sorry you missed them, don't feel like repeating them so I'll provide you a link...read it if you're truly interested in knowing the answers to your questions, or ignore it if you're asking questions just to hear yourself talk...

A condensed explanation...

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102012190?q=why+does+god+allow+evil&p=par

A more indepth explanation...

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102005141
 
You have nothing on your side so you and I have nothing more to discuss.

Come back when you have some real proof.

If God would eliminate nukes and create peace on Earth I'd accept that as proof of his existence.

If that doesn't happen I'll continue to not believe in a God that doesn't exist.

:lol:

So what if He did do that? With the society we live in, just how long would that last? Probably a nano second...
 
Following on from recent discussions, I will try to discuss positive arguments for God's existence, and hopefully some decent discussion can out of it (and there won't be an inundation of fallacy). Again, mostly because I'm lazy, I will start by posting the basic argument and give support for premises in response to queries, rather than fillin the background from the beginning. I will start with Plotinus'/The Neoplatonic version of the cosmological argument, based on the appeal to divine simplicity, mostly because Edward Feser has a good, accessible formulation of it (adapted by Lloyd Gerson's):

Edward Feser: Plotinus on divine simplicity, Part I

1. There must be a first principle of all if there is to be an explanation of why the world exists.

2. If the first principle of all were composed of parts, then those parts would be ontologically prior to it.

3. But in that case it would not be the first principle of all.

4. So the first principle is not composed of parts, but is absolutely simple.

5. If there were a distinction between what the first principle is and the fact that it is, then there could be more than one first principle.

6. But in order for there to be more than one, there would have to be some attribute that distinguished them.

7. But since a first principle is absolutely simple, there can be no such attribute.

8. So there cannot be more than one first principle.

9. So there is no distinction in the first principle between what it is and the fact that it is.

10. So the first principle is not only absolutely simple but utterly unique: the One.

Although I said I wouldn't start by giving background or support to the premises, it is worth quoting Feser on the first premise, because that is bound to be misunderstood, especially by people who specialise in misunderstandings:

What is meant by a “first principle” in step (1) is, essentially, a bottom level explanation of the world, something that explains everything else without needing an explanation itself. Accordingly, this premise is at least implicitly accepted by the atheist no less than by the theist, at least insofar as the atheist regards scientific explanations as terminating in a most fundamental level of physical laws that determine all the rest – whether this takes the form of a “Theory of everything” or instead a conjunction of several physical theories left unreduced to some such single theory. The dispute between Plotinus and the atheist, then, would not be over the existence of a “first principle,” but rather over its character. And Plotinus wants to show in the rest of the argument that the first principle of all would have to be simple in (something like) the sense of “simplicity” enshrined in the doctrine of divine simplicity.

By the way, Feser's Cosmological Argument Roundup is a great online resource on cosmological arguments:


Edward Feser: Cosmological argument roundup

If anyone has any other arguments they like, please post them.

There does no have to be a "first principle of all if there is to be an explanation of why the world exists." So, /thread.
 
Why does God allow pedophiles to serve as priests in His church?

Explain that if you can.

Did God say it is His church? Jesus said, "by their fruits you will know them..."
 
1. There must be a first principle of all if there is to be an explanation of why the world exists.

2. If the first principle of all were composed of parts, then those parts would be ontologically prior to it.

3. But in that case it would not be the first principle of all.

4. So the first principle is not composed of parts, but is absolutely simple.

I don't see how any of this follows.

My first problem is in premise 1. There might not be a grand scheme for "why" the world exists. It might just simply exist with out a grand narrative. Also I think "first principle" needs to be defined better. If it's simply saying that there had to be a first thing, then that might be true, it might not if more than one thing always existed or if more than one thing came into existence at the same time. I see no reason to assume that if something has always existed or came in to existence that we have proof that it was only one thing.

2. Again, why could those parts have not existed and then formed the universe, or formed whatever created the universe? We have no proof to confirm or deny this allegation. It's just a random claim.

3. "first principle" again the term muddies the language. There's no reason to ignore the possibility that there were parts that later formed everything. There's no reason to assume that everything requires a beginning. We simply don't know.

4. Doesn't follow. None of this follows.
 
But (1)
you haven't shown this disproves God's existence
; and (2) even if you had a good argument for that, it wouldn't directly refute the argument in the OP. Given that it still seems worth considering the argument in the OP on its own merits.


If God existed and was doing what God should be doing there would be no evil on this planet.
 
I've explained His reasons in my own words here several times..
.sorry you missed them, don't feel like repeating them so I'll provide you a link...read it if you're truly interested in knowing the answers to your questions, or ignore it if you're asking questions just to hear yourself talk...

A condensed explanation...

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102012190?q=why+does+god+allow+evil&p=par

A more indepth explanation...

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102005141


Believe whatever you want to believe.It will have no effect on reality.

I'm an agnostic who is not interested in religion.I have better things to do with my time.
 
If God existed and was doing what God should be doing there would be no evil on this planet.

Then don't ask questions you really don't want answers to...
 
Well He did make Himself known to Adam and Eve, they had direct contact/conversations with Him because they were perfect and needed no mediator, as we do today...just look how well that worked out...perhaps He wants servants who actually love Him, obey Him, and put their faith in Him, since actually revealing Himself did not accomplish that...

A and E only work if one believes they existed - and one will only do that if one has already believed in god. (And if one is willing to deny the fact of evolution). And who but someone seriously deranged would want billions of "servants"? Surely it is better to believe in no god than one who is not in possession of his faculties?
 
There doesn't have to be an explanation of why things exist. The best we can hope to figure out how existence started.
 
I suspect the more interesting question is "does god believe in you?"
 
If God existed and was doing what God should be doing there would be no evil on this planet.

That would only be the case if god was what we would consider to be good

What if he was more like a 12 year old boy with an ant farm and a magnifying glass having fun with his insignificant pets
 
That would only be the case if god was what we would consider to be good

What if he was more like a 12 year old boy with an ant farm and a magnifying glass having fun with his insignificant pets

That's interesting. I had never thought of that before. He could be a young god with a junior high universe. If he does exist then he can't be a mature god.
 
Well He did make Himself known to Adam and Eve, they had direct contact/conversations with Him because they were perfect and needed no mediator, as we do today...just look how well that worked out...perhaps He wants servants who actually love Him, obey Him, and put their faith in Him, since actually revealing Himself did not accomplish that...

And the only reason you think this is true is because of a story written in a book. You have no idea who wrote the story or for what purpose. But I can guarantee you it was not an eyewitness nor was it authored by a god.
 
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