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How can Christians assert Absolute Morality?[W:380; W:686]

Re: How can Christians assert Absolute Morality?

pinqy said:
I have some Biblical education, but that has nothing to do with my post. I am neither commenting on or asking particular questions about anything in the Bible.

Which part of my following argument do you disagree with?

Some Christians assert that there is a code of Absolute Morality, defined as unchanging rules of behavior regardless of circumstances.
Most Christians assert that because of the New Covenant, most of the moral laws laid out in the Old Testament are not longer applicable (at least for Christians)
Therefore, at minimum, the discarded moral law was not absolute and it becomes unclear what would be Absolute morality.
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Most Christians don't know enough about their own religion to be making assertions...

Let me ask you though, which moral laws are you speaking of?

and how does not adhering to those laws in anyway make them any less unchanging or absolute?
 
Re: How can Christians assert Absolute Morality?

pinqy said:
First off, I don't get the concept of Absolute morality: that something is always wrong regardless of circumstances. And there's even odder idea that this absolute morality is abstract so that it exists irrespective of any other considerations.

But Christianity has a particular problem with absolute morality in that most Christian sects outright reject a large number of moral commands made in the Old Testament. How does that work?
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I was raised in a Bible Ministry but now I have "I AM", Hare Krishna, John Whitman Ray Philosophy and even Muslim Scripture to scrutinize all questions with.

Ecclesiastes says there is a time and a place for everything, so how could there ever be "Absolute Morality"?
 
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Re: How can Christians assert Absolute Morality?

Elvira said:
Jehovah's moral laws have not changed...OT and NT...murder is still murder, sex outside of marriage is still wrong, stealing is still stealing, homosexuality is still wrong, idolatry is still wrong, etc....no, His moral laws have not changed...
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OK, but what does the OT/NT have to say about the morality of slavery?

https://thechurchoftruth.org/god-jesus-condone-slavery/
 
Re: How can Christians assert Absolute Morality?

ChezC3 said:
Most Christians don't know enough about their own religion to be making assertions...

Let me ask you though, which moral laws are you speaking of?

and how does not adhering to those laws in anyway make them any less unchanging or absolute?
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Most of Leviticus and Deuteronomy. And I wasn't talking about not adhering to those laws...but that those laws are no longer applicable to Christians. That is a change. A law that is not in effect isn't exactly a law, is it?
 
Re: How can Christians assert Absolute Morality?

countryboy said:
Ah, the ole question with a question ploy. Usually used when you have no argument.

Lol, try reading the OP, and get back to me.
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You were the one who said you have to know how the Bible works. What the heck did you mean by that?
 
Re: How can Christians assert Absolute Morality?

ttwtt78640 said:
OK, but what does the OT/NT have to say about the morality of slavery?

https://thechurchoftruth.org/god-jesus-condone-slavery/
Click to expand...

It is important to note, even though God tolerated slavery in Bible times, it was much different then than it is today...God’s Law regulated slavery so that, if practiced, slaves would be treated in a humane and loving manner....here is an article you may be interested in reading...it explains your question...

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102011251?q=slavery&p=par
 
Re: How can Christians assert Absolute Morality?

devildavid said:
Poor conclusions about what? Whether or not it is meaningful literature? That is subjective. So you claim that the majority of people can't possibly understand the Bible because they can't read it in the original language and pretend they are back in that culture. A lot of people must really feel foolish. If it take that much to understand a book, is it really relevant to us today? What does you perfect understanding of the bible give to you that others lack and should even care about?
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One Scripture or religion says Jesus or Krishna is God and the other says the Supreme never appears in human form.

One says the sky is blue, the other grey. We all know the truth pertaining to this, but how many have a good answer for the above paradox?
 
Re: How can Christians assert Absolute Morality?

devildavid said:
You were the one who said you have to know how the Bible works. What the heck did you mean by that?
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Which was in response to the OP. Have you read the OP? You might try. I won't suffer silly lib games for very long. If you want to discuss the subject, fine, but enough with the circular arguing.
 
Re: How can Christians assert Absolute Morality?

countryboy said:
Which was in response to the OP. Have you read the OP? You might try. I won't suffer silly lib games for very long. If you want to discuss the subject, fine, but enough with the circular arguing.
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Your post had nothing to do with the OP as the OP did not mention the Bible.
 
Re: How can Christians assert Absolute Morality?

Elvira said:
It is important to note, even though God tolerated slavery in Bible times, it was much different then than it is today...God’s Law regulated slavery so that, if practiced, slaves would be treated in a humane and loving manner....here is an article you may be interested in reading...it explains your question...

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102011251?q=slavery&p=par
Click to expand...

Gods are fickle.
 
Re: How can Christians assert Absolute Morality?

pinqy said:
Most of Leviticus and Deuteronomy. And I wasn't talking about not adhering to those laws...but that those laws are no longer applicable to Christians. That is a change. A law that is not in effect isn't exactly a law, is it?
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Right, not applicable, who says, what evidence, and under whose authority was that determination made.

Most of Leviticus and Deuteronomy, that covers a lot of ground, most of which which can, still sticks.

For all intents and purposes altogether there are 613 commandments. 365 negative 248 positive. Only 77 positive and 194 negative can actually be applied today as the Second Temple was destroyed thereby making the full adherence to all 613 impossible.

Also, 26 of the remaining only apply to those residing in the State of Israel.


So, again, I will ask which laws?
 
Re: How can Christians assert Absolute Morality?

Elvira said:
It is important to note, even though God tolerated slavery in Bible times, it was much different then than it is today...God’s Law regulated slavery so that, if practiced, slaves would be treated in a humane and loving manner....here is an article you may be interested in reading...it explains your question...

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102011251?q=slavery&p=par
Click to expand...

While masters were allowed to discipline their slaves, excesses were forbidden. A slave killed by his master was to be avenged. (Exodus 21:20) If the slave was maimed, losing a tooth or an eye, he was set free.—Exodus 21:26, 27.
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When a slave was released, the master was required to be generous toward him. Deuteronomy 15:13, 14 says: “In case you should send him out from you as one set free, you must not send him out empty-handed. You should surely equip him with something from your flock and your threshing floor and your oil and winepress.”
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How, exactly, was a humanely treated slave getting maimed so severely as to require being set free? Whoops, since I beat you too severely to work you are now free to go (so I don't have to house and feed you any longer) here is a goat, a loaf of bread, a bottle of salad dressing and a six pack - now get your free ass out of my sight forever.
 
Re: How can Christians assert Absolute Morality?

Elvira said:
It is important to note, even though God tolerated slavery in Bible times, it was much different then than it is today...God’s Law regulated slavery so that, if practiced, slaves would be treated in a humane and loving manner....here is an article you may be interested in reading...it explains your question...

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102011251?q=slavery&p=par
Click to expand...

That is misinformation. Let's see now.. beating a slave with a rod no thicker than a thumb is not 'humane and loving'. It was just less inhumane that the standards that were practiced elsewhere. If you take exodus 20:20-21, that is not 'loving and humane'... that is just a bit less humane than was practiced elsewhere. It was part of a journey of a change in moral behavior to being less cruel and inhumane.. but by modern standards, it was still very inhumane. Of course, modern standards might not have existed if the initial steps were not made in the Bible. There was also a different standard of slavery from people within the tribes verses without. This also became less cruel as time progressed, and it is very conceivable it is because of the initial laws that were slightly less cruel than the surrounding area.
 
Re: How can Christians assert Absolute Morality?

MrWonka said:
Absolute morality does not negate circumstances affecting it. It simply means that given all the circumstances a moral right vs wrong can be determined objectively.
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Which is simply not defensible. That's why people arbitrarily declare some authority, in this case a deity, said so, therefore you has to do what the deity says. In order to be objective, you'd have to be able to prove, objectively, that said deity actually exists and actually issued that order and also that we somehow have some moral duty to obey.

Let me know when any theist can do any of that.
 
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Re: How can Christians assert Absolute Morality?

zyzygy said:
The Bible is very easy to understand.
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It is if you actually care what's in it, but most Christians don't. They have an entire mythology around the mythology of the Bible. They are convinced that all kinds of things that aren't actually in it apply because it appeals to them emotionally. That's why they spend a lot of time making excuses for things that exist in black and white.
 
Re: How can Christians assert Absolute Morality?

pinqy said:
Is it then your claim that morality is NOT absolute, but can change from time to time based on Jehovah's directions?
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Or on what someone claims Jehovah's directions are. Funny, Jehovah never comes right out and says anything himself. It's always through an intermediary who has no proof that he's right.
 
Re: How can Christians assert Absolute Morality?

RAMOSS said:
That is misinformation. Let's see now.. beating a slave with a rod no thicker than a thumb is not 'humane and loving'. It was just less inhumane that the standards that were practiced elsewhere. If you take exodus 20:20-21, that is not 'loving and humane'... that is just a bit less humane than was practiced elsewhere. It was part of a journey of a change in moral behavior to being less cruel and inhumane.. but by modern standards, it was still very inhumane. Of course, modern standards might not have existed if the initial steps were not made in the Bible. There was also a different standard of slavery from people within the tribes verses without. This also became less cruel as time progressed, and it is very conceivable it is because of the initial laws that were slightly less cruel than the surrounding area.
Click to expand...

There is not one verse in the entire Bible prohibiting slavery, but many explaining how to exactly to do it so it would be pleasing to the Lord.

There is also lots of verses condoning outright misogyny, in both the Old and New Testaments. Paul, in the New Testament, even tells women it is shameful for them to speak in church.

According to child psychologists, some of the people who are the most difficult to get to stop physically beating their children are the religious Christians, because they will keep quoting "spare the rod, spoil the child" type quotes to them. That's what the Bible tells them, so why would they listen to some egghead shrink tell them there are better ways to do it?

So where do modern ideas that human slavery is immoral, or misogyny is wrong, or that physical abuse of children is dysfunctional, come from? Certainly not the Bible.

They come from the same place the morality in the Bible came from. They come from the same place laws of language and grammar come from: from society. From us. Those come first, the "God says..." gets tacked on later. It's not necessary, and is even problematic.
 
Re: How can Christians assert Absolute Morality?

pinqy said:
...but that those laws are no longer applicable to Christians. That is a change. A law that is not in effect isn't exactly a law, is it?
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I don't know where Christians got this crazy idea that those laws no longer apply to them. That is certainly NOT what Jesus told them, in one of the very few lines that he actually does speak in the NT:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
-Matthew 5:17-20
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Wow. That seems pretty darn clear to me. So where did you hear the laws are no longer applicable to Christians?
 
Re: How can Christians assert Absolute Morality?

ataraxia said:
I don't know where Christians got this crazy idea that those laws no longer apply to them. That is certainly NOT what Jesus told them, in one of the very few lines that he actually does speak in the NT:



Wow. That seems pretty darn clear to me. So where did you hear the laws are no longer applicable to Christians?
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You obviously do not understand what the expression “to fulfill” means...think of it like this...a builder fulfills a contract to complete a building, not by ripping up the contract, but by finishing the structure...once the work has been completed to the client’s satisfaction, the contract is fulfilled and the builder is no longer under obligation to it...Jesus did not break, or rip up, the Law...rather, he fulfilled it by keeping it perfectly...once fulfilled, that Law “contract”...the Mosaic Law Covenant, was no longer binding on God’s people...Jesus introduced a new covenant with his followers...Matthew 22:36-40...

“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ This is the greatest and first commandment. The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”
 
Re: How can Christians assert Absolute Morality?

ataraxia said:
I don't know where Christians got this crazy idea that those laws no longer apply to them. That is certainly NOT what Jesus told them, in one of the very few lines that he actually does speak in the NT:



Wow. That seems pretty darn clear to me. So where did you hear the laws are no longer applicable to Christians?
Click to expand...

Well, let's see, Most Christians don't follow the dietary laws, or consider circumcision necessary, or require the rapist of a virgin to marrry her, or stone people for offenses, or make sacrifices, and most consider any form of slavery, however benign, to be immoral. Oh, and divorce is another big can of worms, though that varies by sect.
 
Re: How can Christians assert Absolute Morality?

Elvira said:
You obviously do not understand what the expression “to fulfill” means...think of it like this...a builder fulfills a contract to complete a building, not by ripping up the contract, but by finishing the structure...once the work has been completed to the client’s satisfaction, the contract is fulfilled and the builder is no longer under obligation to it...Jesus did not break, or rip up, the Law...rather, he fulfilled it by keeping it perfectly...once fulfilled, that Law “contract”...the Mosaic Law Covenant, was no longer binding on God’s people...Jesus introduced a new covenant with his followers...Matthew 22:36-40...

“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ This is the greatest and first commandment. The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”
Click to expand...
So you agree that at least many of the laws from the OT were not absolute.
 
Re: How can Christians assert Absolute Morality?

pinqy said:
So you agree that at least many of the laws from the OT were not absolute.
Click to expand...

The moral laws were and are...
 
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