What do you Value/appreciate in Religion/Atheism?

zyzygy said:

Oh the irony!

Click to expand...

It's true. Years ago I used to debate in a news group much like this one, although there weren't as many crazies. The atheists knew more than I did about Christian history, and they told me to educate myself. So I did. Now all atheists can do is quote atheist website propaganda and Richard Dawkins. They don't know anything about Christianity or Christian history, they just think they do. They're not very good at philosophy, either.

The smart atheists are long gone.

I have developed an opinion of organized religion over my lifetime. There are too many "if there is a supreme being, then why does this happen", questions. I think that as humans evolved, developed the ability to communicate with each other, and began a thought process, they, (humans), were worried about death and what it entailed. When animals, in the wild, know their time is near, they retreat to a safe place and let nature take it's course. To humans, this was not acceptable and they had to paint a rosy picture of what happens when life leaves the body. After people found out that they could control people via religion, things got out of hand.

I'm an ignorant agnostic so I don't have a foot in either camp.

The best benefits of Atheism (assuming it does not go down the rabbit-hole of nihilism) are self-reliance on critical thought, taking responsibility for personal choices and personal morality and the strength and freedom that comes from being a free-thinker. In essence it is the triumph of the individual facing an indifferent and unknowable universe despite the community standards which try to constrain divergence. It relies on reason but does not percieve that it is based on an act of faith that human perception and human reason can manage the infinite and unknowable.

The best benefits of religion (assuming it does not go down the rabbit-hole of fundamentalism) are solace in dealing with an unknowable and indifferent universe which can be cruel at tmes, the teaching of a collective morallity which supports harmony within a community and the teaching of ideals of collective morality and personal character that strengthen a community. In essence it is the triump of a collective facing an indifferent and unknowable universe and uses collective means to manage humanity's questions and fears. It relies on faith but too often makes the error that reason can justify faith - that is the error which too often leads to fundamentalism.

Both are means by which we deal with our limitations in percieving and comprehending our human condition and the universe around us and both are equally valid if they do not become too extreme and intolerant of other pathways to solace or understanding.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

I've often given some props to religions.
Community
Mormon's are generalized as just awesomely nice people
Saved a lot of history during the dark ages
Some spend some of their revenue on charity
The ritual/tradition of getting together weekly
Some that have rituals where they go without, to better appreciate what they have

Elvira said:

So much to appreciate about my faith because

Click to expand...

Psst. If you're religious you were supposed to say what you liked about atheism/atheists.

Mach said:

I've often given some props to religions.
Community
Mormon's are generalized as just awesomely nice people
Saved a lot of history during the dark ages
Some spend some of their revenue on charity
The ritual/tradition of getting together weekly
Some that have rituals where they go without, to better appreciate what they have


Psst. If you're religious you were supposed to say what you liked about atheism/atheists.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I know...ThoughtEx was kind enough to let me know...

Elvira said:

Yeah, I know...ThoughtEx was kind enough to let me know...

Click to expand...

oops. I thought your post was above mine, but it was on page one..I've done that twice now! I hate that, one mistake and you hear about it perpetually

Rexedgar said:

I have developed an opinion of organized religion over my lifetime. There are too many "if there is a supreme being, then why does this happen", questions. I think that as humans evolved, developed the ability to communicate with each other, and began a thought process, they, (humans), were worried about death and what it entailed. When animals, in the wild, know their time is near, they retreat to a safe place and let nature take it's course. To humans, this was not acceptable and they had to paint a rosy picture of what happens when life leaves the body. After people found out that they could control people via religion, things got out of hand.

Click to expand...

There's a reason for that...we were not created to die...the Bible even says God has put eternity into our heats...Ecclesiastes 3:11...

Mach said:

oops. I thought your post was above mine, but it was on page one..I've done that twice now! I hate that, one mistake and you hear about it perpetually

Click to expand...

If only you and I were perfect like everyone else, right?:tongue4:

Sorry to break up the party but atheism is not really comparable to religion. Religions are value systems. Atheism is a theists description of those who lack belief in god(s). I don't value anything about religion or atheism. Atheism has no deeper meaning than lacking belief in god(s) and religion is too vague to pin down what it actually is. Neither side has any edge on how to create the best life for everyone. All religious dogma is nonsense. Atheism is not a religion so it has no dogmas. Moral values come from social groups deciding how we should behave, not from a thing called religion. For example, laws against murder are not religious, they are social constructs. Some may like to dress up morality in religious garb but it is not religion that gave us moral values.

devildavid said:

Sorry to break up the party but atheism is not really comparable to religion. Religions are value systems. Atheism is a theists description of those who lack belief in god(s). I don't value anything about religion or atheism. Atheism has no deeper meaning than lacking belief in god(s) and religion is too vague to pin down what it actually is. Neither side has any edge on how to create the best life for everyone. All religious dogma is nonsense. Atheism is not a religion so it has no dogmas. Moral values come from social groups deciding how we should behave, not from a thing called religion. For example, laws against murder are not religious, they are social constructs. Some may like to dress up morality in religious garb but it is not religion that gave us moral values.

Click to expand...

I was reading this in the spirit of the OP so I was going to avoid making the points along the lines that you did but, seeing as we appear to now have some points grudgingly conceded by the religious in bad spirit I'll jump in and say I agree with you. The more appropriate comparison would be for example Religion/Humanism since atheism (lower case 'a') is not a belief system but, a rejection of theism that is asserted without evidence. In the spirit of many of the responses I'll add that the one positive thing about religion is that it has made me an atheist.

Re: What do you Value/appreciate in Religion/Atheism?
※→ Elvira, et al,

I'm not sure I understand...

Elvira said:

There's a reason for that...we were not created to die...the Bible even says God has put eternity into our heats...Ecclesiastes 3:11...

Click to expand...

(COMMENT)


According to the traditional line of thought, everything that exists, does so under the WILL of the divine SB/UCC. When I die, and the spark of life leaves me, it is because of the WILL of the divine SB/UCC.

According to the traditional line of thought, the divine SB/UCC is perfect. Everything created was done so according to the WILL of the SB (intentionally).

According to the traditional line of thought, the divine SB/UCC is all powerful. Nothing can subvert the WILL of the SB.

1. Atheists are not bothered by these grave contradictions; positive or negative.
2. Agnostics, just try to fit morally into the society in which they belong.
3. Believers just try to justify whatever it is they believe.

Most Respectfully (The Agnostic),
R

RoccoR said:

Re: What do you Value/appreciate in Religion/Atheism?
※→ Elvira, et al,

I'm not sure I understand...


(COMMENT)

• You say "we were not created to die"? What does this mean?

∀ IF true and IF the Supreme Being (SB), the Ultimate Cosmic Creator (UCC), was responsible for the establishment of Humanity, ⇒ THEN ⇒ what is death?​

According to the traditional line of thought, everything that exists, does so under the WILL of the divine SB/UCC. When I die, and the spark of life leaves me, it is because of the WILL of the divine SB/UCC.

According to the traditional line of thought, the divine SB/UCC is perfect. Everything created was done so according to the WILL of the SB (intentionally).

According to the traditional line of thought, the divine SB/UCC is all powerful. Nothing can subvert the WILL of the SB.

∀ IF I am an imperfect creator ⇒ THEN ⇒ it is at the WILL of the SB/UCC. Nothing can happen in the domain of the UCC that is not pursuant to the WILL of the SB.
∀ IF the SB is All Knowing (past, present and future) ⇒ THEN ⇒ the SB knows, in advance of the creation, whether I will be evil or good.
∀ IF I commit evil, ⇒ THEN ⇒ that is because the SB/UCC set the conditions in motions such that nothing else could have happened. Because the SB/UCC had foreknowledge (Omniscient) of all future events.
∀ IF there is evil in the world, i⇒ THEN ⇒ it is the WILL of the SB.
​

1. Atheists are not bothered by these grave contradictions; positive or negative.
2. Agnostics, just try to fit morally into the society in which they belong.
3. Believers just try to justify whatever it is they believe.

Most Respectfully (The Agnostic),
R

Click to expand...

Man was created to live forever...death only came into the picture in the garden of Eden when God told him..."But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.” Genesis 2:17

Elvira said:

Man was created to live forever...death only came into the picture in the garden of Eden when God told him..."But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.” Genesis 2:17

Click to expand...

That is a myth, it didn't really happen.

Re: What do you Value/appreciate in Religion/Atheism?
※→ Elvira, et al,

This approach is a contradiction as well.

Elvira said:

Man was created to live forever...death only came into the picture in the garden of Eden when God told him..."But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.” Genesis 2:17

Click to expand...

(REMEMBER)
(COMMENT)

Adam and Eve could not have perpetrated any transgression in the Garden of Eden (eating the fruit of the Forbidden Tree) that the All Knowing (past, present and future) SB/UCC could not have seen at the time that Adam and Eve were created.


IF there is "evil" in Humanity, it is because the SB/UCC WILLed it to be so. The SB/UCC is all powerful. There is nothing humanity can do (including transgressions against the SB) that is outside the WILL of the SB. Man CANNOT contravene the WILL of the All Powerful SB. IF a transgression was made, THEN it was because the SB WILLed it.

The alternative (of course) is that there DOES NOT exists a invisible, all knowing, all powerfully, etc etc etc SB/UCC.

Most Respectfully (The Agnostic),
R

RoccoR said:

Re: What do you Value/appreciate in Religion/Atheism?
※→ Elvira, et al,

This approach is a contradiction as well.


(REMEMBER)

∀ IF the SB is All Knowing (past, present and future) ⇒ THEN ⇒ the SB knows, in advance of the creation, whether I will be evil or good.
∀ IF I commit evil, ⇒ THEN ⇒ that is because the SB/UCC set the conditions in motions such that nothing else could have happened. Because the SB/UCC had foreknowledge (Omniscient) of all future events.
∀ IF there is evil in what Adam and Eve did, ⇒ THEN ⇒ it is the WILL of the SB.
​

(COMMENT)

Adam and Eve could not have perpetrated any transgression in the Garden of Eden (eating the fruit of the Forbidden Tree) that the All Knowing (past, present and future) SB/UCC could not have seen at the time that Adam and Eve were created.

• Either it is the case that the Supreme Being (SB), the Ultimate Cosmic Creator (UCC), is NOT All Knowing (past, present and future), thus imperfect as a SB...

OR

• The SB/UCC intentionally created Adam and Eve, knowing in advance that Adam and Eve would make that transgression (when the SB/UCC created them), and purposely instilled the capacity in Adam and Eve to transgress the SB's command for the purpose of perverse divine amusement.
​

IF there is "evil" in Humanity, it is because the SB/UCC WILLed it to be so. The SB/UCC is all powerful. There is nothing humanity can do (including transgressions against the SB) that is outside the WILL of the SB. Man CANNOT contravene the WILL of the All Powerful SB. IF a transgression was made, THEN it was because the SB WILLed it.

The alternative (of course) is that there DOES NOT exists a invisible, all knowing, all powerfully, etc etc etc SB/UCC.

Most Respectfully (The Agnostic),
R

Click to expand...

Hogwash...

Respectfully, Elvira

William Rea said:

I was reading this in the spirit of the OP so I was going to avoid making the points along the lines that you did but, seeing as we appear to now have some points grudgingly conceded by the religious in bad spirit I'll jump in and say I agree with you. The more appropriate comparison would be for example Religion/Humanism since atheism (lower case 'a') is not a belief system but, a rejection of theism that is asserted without evidence. In the spirit of many of the responses I'll add that the one positive thing about religion is that it has made me an atheist.

Click to expand...

Hear, hear. That's also one of the things I like about atheism, it confirms many of the things I know about religion.

it's just me said:

Hear, hear. That's also one of the things I like about atheism, it confirms many of the things I know about religion.

Click to expand...

How does it do that?

What made me an atheist was logical thinking.

I don't really think religion creates atheists or vice versa. I think the underlying cause for both is the conflict between logic and emotion. Or more exactly, where our emotions and logic meet and make sense to us.

devildavid said:

How does it do that?

What made me an atheist was logical thinking.

I don't really think religion creates atheists or vice versa. I think the underlying cause for both is the conflict between logic and emotion. Or more exactly, where our emotions and logic meet and make sense to us.

Click to expand...

As far as religion making atheists, take that up with your buddy, he made the claim.

And as far as logical thinking goes, I don't know where atheists ever got the idea that they have the market cornered on logic.

Now, if you want to know how atheism has confirmed to me what I know about religion, there are tons of verses in the Bible about what faithlessness does to people, and you can see it in everyday life.

it's just me said:

As far as religion making atheists, take that up with your buddy, he made the claim.

And as far as logical thinking goes, I don't know where atheists ever got the idea that they have the market cornered on logic.

Now, if you want to know how atheism has confirmed to me what I know about religion, there are tons of verses in the Bible about what faithlessness does to people, and you can see it in everyday life.

Click to expand...

I didn't claim atheists cornered the market on logical thinking. I only was explaining what led me to reject belief in god. I don't look to any single book to find out what is true. I gather information from as many sources as possible and from my daily observations. No religious book has given me any insight into the human animal and its behavior. I don't even know how you can tell that a thing called faithlessness impacts anything at all in human behavior. I am married to what you would call a faithless individual who happens to be the most kind and empathetic person I have ever known. So your ideas about faith really don't hold true at all. Religious faith or lack thereof is not a reliable indicator of how a person will behave.

devildavid said:

I didn't claim atheists cornered the market on logical thinking. I only was explaining what led me to reject belief in god. I don't look to any single book to find out what is true. I gather information from as many sources as possible and from my daily observations. No religious book has given me any insight into the human animal and its behavior. I don't even know how you can tell that a thing called faithlessness impacts anything at all in human behavior. I am married to what you would call a faithless individual who happens to be the most kind and empathetic person I have ever known. So your ideas about faith really don't hold true at all. Religious faith or lack thereof is not a reliable indicator of how a person will behave.

Click to expand...

Number one, I hear that "logic" meme bandied around too much, usually from atheists. The way they say it makes me think logic is necessarily atheistic. They surely think that about science.

And I am not saying your wife can't be sweet. But as a general rule, I think faithlessness leaves one vulnerable to, let me say, baser emotions, if you let it.

And I also know that all men are capable of great evil, which is the reason I belive Christianity is true in the first place.

it's just me said:

Number one, I hear that "logic" meme bandied around too much, usually from atheists. The way they say it makes me think logic is necessarily atheistic. They surely think that about science.

And I am not saying your wife can't be sweet. But as a general rule, I think faithlessness leaves one vulnerable to, let me say, baser emotions, if you let it.

And I also know that all men are capable of great evil, which is the reason I belive Christianity is true in the first place.

Click to expand...

Logic is not a meme. It is a way of thinking about concepts. In this case, the concept of god and religion. Under my logical analysis, it just didn't hold up. I don't think it is even meant to hold up under logical scrutiny.

You are dead wrong about faithlessness and there is zero evidence to back your claim. Human behavior is much more complex then you give it credit for. It is not primarily based around beliefs or lack thereof. A lot of it is instinctual and inherited.

Why does the fact that humans can do things you deem evil convince you region has validity? I see no logical reason to conclude that.

devildavid said:

Logic is not a meme. It is a way of thinking about concepts. In this case, the concept of god and religion. Under my logical analysis, it just didn't hold up. I don't think it is even meant to hold up under logical scrutiny.

You are dead wrong about faithlessness and there is zero evidence to back your claim. Human behavior is much more complex then you give it credit for. It is not primarily based around beliefs or lack thereof. A lot of it is instinctual and inherited.

Why does the fact that humans can do things you deem evil convince you region has validity? I see no logical reason to conclude that.

Click to expand...

Do you mean otber than the fact that someone wrote about human tendencies and psychological phdnomena thousands of years before you, me, or Freud was born?

You asked me and I told you. For your incormation, I think you're wrong, too, so there you are, we've nuzt wasted five minutes.

it's just me said:

Do you mean otber than the fact that someone wrote about human tendencies and psychological phdnomena thousands of years before you, me, or Freud was born?

You asked me and I told you. For your incormation, I think you're wrong, too, so there you are, we've nuzt wasted five minutes.

Click to expand...

What writing are you referring to? Did it explain instinct , genetic traits, environmental and behavioral factors? Did it go into the physical functioning of the brain and nervous system?

Do you think I am wrong to think that all those things play a more important role in human behavior than religious belief?

it's just me said:

Do you mean otber than the fact that someone wrote about human tendencies and psychological phdnomena thousands of years before you, me, or Freud was born?

Click to expand...

Yes, the Egyptian Book Of The Dead is an interesting read.

zyzygy said:

Yes, the Egyptian Book Of The Dead is an interesting read.

Click to expand...

Particularly the read about baptism and the lake of fire.