The Bible

tosca1 · May 28, 2017

The Bible.

Is the God of the Bible, the Creator?
Is the Bible, reliable? Can we trust the Bible?
Is it truly God-inspired? How do you know it came from God?

Those are some of the common questions asked about the Bible. This thread aims to give answers to those questions (and maybe more).

But first, some basic facts about the Bible:

The Bible is the best-selling book of all time.
It is also the most scrutinized book that’s ever written. Scrutiny comes not only from Christians cementing their faith or skeptics seeking truth, but most intense scrutiny comes from those with hostile intentions.
It's very much relevant, even today.

As explained from the Living Truth, by Pastor Charles Price......(page no longer found):

The Bible is written by over forty authors from every walk of life.
There are kings writing in this book. There are military leaders, and there are peasants, there are philosophers, there are fishermen, there are tax collectors, there are poets, there are musicians, there's a harpist, and a drummer. A drummer wrote two psalms. His name was Asaph. There are scholars who write this book, there are shepherds who write this book, and there was a cowman who wrote part of this book. His job was looking after cattle. This has come from a huge variety of human sources.

It was written over a period of at least fifteen hundred years. That means if the last book was being written now, the first book would have been written in the closing days of the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire finally was disbanded in 476 A.D. That's just over fifteen hundred years ago. That's a huge time span. During that fifteen hundred years, cultures changed, outlooks changed.

It was written in three completely different languages: Hebrew and Greek are the primary languages, but parts of the Old Testament are written in Aramaic, which also would have been the mother tongue of Jesus, so the original speaking of Jesus would have been in Aramaic, though written in Greek, which had become the international language. That was the legacy of the Greek Empire was they left an international language, a bit like the way the British Empire left English as a kind of language of international communication. Well, the Greeks did that; that's why its written in Greek, but Aramaic is the origin and some of the Old Testament Scriptures parts of Ezra in particular, parts of Daniel, and the language of Jesus.

It was written in numerous styles; in fact, almost every literary style you'll probably find in this book.
There's history, there's poetry, and songs, there is law, there is biography, there is autobiography, there is prophecy, there is parable, there is allegory, and idioms and other figures of speech...... and probably other things that I haven't thought of.

It was written on three continents in a day when people didn't travel very much: Asia, Europe, and a little bit of it was written in Africa, Jeremiah down in Egypt.

It was written in scores of situations. Moses wrote part of it in the wilderness. Jeremiah and Paul both wrote in prison. David wrote some of his psalms up on the hillside; Solomon in his luxurious palace; Ezekiel in exile, sitting down by the rivers of Babylon; John exiled to the isle of Patmos as an old man; Mark back at home in Jerusalem; Paul on the road, busy but writing as he traveled; and Peter writing his epistles facing persecutions.

It deals with dozens of controversial subjects like. Who is God? That's a controversial subject.
What is the meaning of life? What is the purpose of life? It deals with things like authority and law. These are controversial issues.
And there are hundreds of hot topics that it covers: marriage for instance, and divorce, sexuality, parenting, truth, lies, attitudes to wealth, attitudes to poverty, attitudes to the needy. It deals with things like sin and judgement, and heaven and hell.

The Bible's full of controversial issues, and yet despite the breadth of authors, the huge period of time over which it was written, there is an amazing unity and harmony that runs all the way through. Because in spite of its diversity, the Bible presents one single, unfolding story. Its the story of creation, the fall of man, the redemption of man, and the future restoration back to what God intended everything to be.

To quote John Milton, Genesis is about paradise lost, and Revelation about paradise regained. And everything in between, including the need, the means, and the results of being restored to what God intended. In the early part of Genesis, the gate to the tree of life is closed, and in the end of Revelation, the gate to the tree of life is opened again. One continuous story.

Now if you tried to put that together humanly, with a very smart editor, though no editor survives fifteen hundred years....you wouldn't get this kind of unity and harmony.

tosca1 · May 28, 2017

This video addresses the arguments usually given by non-believers.

For those who want to discuss, please watch and we'll discuss the points given in this video on why we should trust the Bible.

Honesty test.

Telephone Test.

Corroboration test.

ataraxia · May 28, 2017

Now if you tried to put that together humanly, with a very smart editor, though no editor survives fifteen hundred years....you wouldn't get this kind of unity and harmony.

Not really. Do you really want to say there are no contradicting passages to the pages and pages of detailed instructions on how to own slaves so it is pleasing to the Lord?

Oh wait, I am sorry, there aren't any. Bad example. So maybe we can try these:

https://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible5.htm

ataraxia · May 28, 2017

tosca1 said:
This video addresses the arguments usually given by non-believers.

For those who want to discuss, please watch and we'll discuss the points given in this video on why we should trust the Bible.

Honesty test.

Telephone Test.

Corroboration test.

All holy books do this. First you would have to show how your holy book is different in these things than the Quran, or the Bhagavad Gita, or the Book of Mormon.

kitsune · May 28, 2017

ataraxia said:
All holy books do this. First you would have to show how your holy book is different in these things than the Quran, or the Bhagavad Gita, or the Book of Mormon.

I agree.

The Bible....

- Meaning and focus evolves over the years as human knowledge evolves.
- Multiple interpretations and ways of understanding, sometimes mutually exclusive, often leading to violence between one group of believers and another.
- Larded with generic, generally accepted moral commonplaces that pre-date the religion and can be boiled down to, “treat others as you would want them to treat you, and don’t be a jerk.”
-Larded even more heavily with pointless rules and practices that are required of believers and are often traceable to ancient social dictates and prejudices, or scientific ignorance.
- Creation myth. Check
- Birth-death-rebirth theme. Check
-A god who is described as feeling and behaving in the same way mortals do and shares the same moral failings mortals have and needs to be continually placated.
-A mother lode of contradictions and irrationality.

Sounds pretty much like your standard-issue religion to me.

tosca1 · May 28, 2017

ataraxia said:
All holy books do this. First you would have to show how your holy book is different in these things than the Quran, or the Bhagavad Gita, or the Book of Mormon.

All holy books do what? Explain.

tosca1 · May 28, 2017

kitsune said:
I agree.

The Bible....

- Meaning and focus evolves over the years as human knowledge evolves.
- Multiple interpretations and ways of understanding, sometimes mutually exclusive, often leading to violence between one group of believers and another.
- Larded with generic, generally accepted moral commonplaces that pre-date the religion and can be boiled down to, “treat others as you would want them to treat you, and don’t be a jerk.”
-Larded even more heavily with pointless rules and practices that are required of believers and are often traceable to ancient social dictates and prejudices, or scientific ignorance.
- Creation myth. Check
- Birth-death-rebirth theme. Check
-A god who is described as feeling and behaving in the same way mortals do and shares the same moral failings mortals have and needs to be continually placated.
-A mother lode of contradictions and irrationality.

Sounds pretty much like your standard-issue religion to me.

Then, you better read and watch again.

- All your effort at rebuttal, yet no substance. Just the typical, standard cliche from non-believers.
Obviously, you didn't get what was explained. Check.

tosca1 · May 28, 2017

ataraxia said:
Not really. Do you really want to say there are no contradicting passages to the pages and pages of detailed instructions on how to own slaves so it is pleasing to the Lord?

Oh wait, I am sorry, there aren't any. Bad example. So maybe we can try these:

https://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible5.htm

:roll:

That's a really bad source you gave, ataraxia.

I read the first entry, "Be wise as serpents." It's really an eye-roller. What contradiction are you on about?
Your source didn't understand what he read either! You're relying on a source that has comprehension problem! :lol:

Here's the explanation for that advise:

In sending out the Twelve, Jesus said to them, “Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves” (Matthew 10:16, KJV). The NIV says, “shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.”

Jesus was using similes (figures of speech that compare two unlike things) to instruct His disciples in how to behave in their ministry. Just before He tells them to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves, He warns them that they were being sent out “like sheep among wolves.”

The world, then as now, was hostile to believers—not incidentally hostile, but purposefully hostile. Wolves are intentional about the harm they inflict upon sheep. In such an environment, the question becomes “how can we advance the kingdom of God effectively without becoming predatory ourselves?” Jesus taught His followers that, to be Christlike in a godless world, they must combine the wisdom of the serpent with the harmlessness of the dove.

In using these similes, Jesus invokes the common proverbial view of serpents and doves. The serpent was “subtle” or “crafty” or “shrewd” in Genesis 3:1. The dove, on the other hand, was thought of as innocent and harmless—doves were listed among the “clean animals” and were used for sacrifices (Leviticus 14:22). To this very day, doves are used as symbols of peace, and snakes are thought of as “sneaky.”

...some people recoil at the image of a serpent, no matter what the context. They can never see a snake in a good light, even when used by Jesus as a teaching tool. But we should not make too much of the simile. We cannot attach the evil actions of Satan (as the serpent) with the serpent itself. Animals are not moral entities. The creature itself cannot perform sin, and shrewdness is an asset, not a defect. This is the quality that Jesus told His disciples to model.

I suppose, since your source claims that Christians equate the snake with Satan.....shouldn't he wonder instead, how come there are so many Satans slithering around all over the world. :lamo

The snake was used by Satan in luring Eve.
I suppose snakes got a bad rap because of that - it is seen as a symbolism of evil by so many.
If this were Hollywood, you can say that the snake has been the victim of type-casting. The snake will always be the bad guy.

Snakes are animals. They don't represent Satan. Write to your source and give this post as an explanation.
His first entry at alleged contradiction, is an embarrassment.

His second entry was about beating a slave - another eye-roller. Your source is equating slavery in ancient time to human-trafficking today as we know it! Tell your source to read up about comparisons during that time to modern time.

I didn't bother reading the rest of his alleged contradictions.
If his first example is an epic fail.....surely the rest are utter time-wasters! :mrgreen:

tosca1 · May 28, 2017

ataraxia said:
First you would have to show how your holy book is different in these things than the Quran, or the Bhagavad Gita, or the Book of Mormon.

Didn't you read the OP?

Go read, and UNDERSTAND the OP.

The answer is right in your face!

tosca1 · May 28, 2017

ataraxia said:
Oh wait, I am sorry, there aren't any. Bad example. So maybe we can try these:

https://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible5.htm

Still on your source's second entry: Your source took the verse of Luke 12:47 out of context. Luke 12: 35-48 is a parable about WATCHFULNESS.

It's a PARABLE!

Luke 12
41 Peter asked, “Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?”

42 The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43 It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

And your source quoted a questionable statement:

English North Americans embraced slavery because they were Christians, not in spite of it... It was Christianity that perverted the African's way of life. Not leaving them alone was the real tragedy."
--Forrest G. Wood

Baloney!

To add to my comment on slavery in Biblical times, here.....for your benefit:

The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery. It gives instructions on how slaves should be treated (Deuteronomy 15:12-15; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1), but does not outlaw slavery altogether. Many see this as the Bible condoning all forms of slavery. What many fail to understand is that slavery in biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was based more on economics; it was a matter of social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters.

The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery. It gives instructions on how slaves should be treated (Deuteronomy 15:12-15; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1), but does not outlaw slavery altogether. Many see this as the Bible condoning all forms of slavery. What many fail to understand is that slavery in biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was based more on economics; it was a matter of social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html

Angel · May 28, 2017

tosca1 said:
All holy books do what? Explain.

I commend your passion and your faith, tosca1, but you are debating, in this and other threads, with atheists. They reject the very idea of God. Your arguments based on the Bible are falling on deaf ears. They don't care a fig about the Book, and they don't share your faith in a Creator. You will not convert them through argument, and they will never acknowledge the validity of your faith. We live in intolerant times. Militant atheism has poisoned many otherwise sharp minds to the reality of religious faith, though their own faith in science is every bit a matter of faith as well. I suspect you know this, but I had to get it off my chest because in thread after thread I find you, a sincere person, made to play the bear in their bear-baiting. Of course, it's none of my business, and I'll butt out as I should henceforth.

Unitedwestand13 · May 28, 2017

Angel said:
I commend your passion and your faith, tosca1, but you are debating, in this and other threads, with atheists. They reject the very idea of God. Your arguments based on the Bible are falling on deaf ears. They don't care a fig about the Book, and they don't share your faith in a Creator. You will not convert them through argument, and they will never acknowledge the validity of your faith. We live in intolerant times. Militant atheism has poisoned many otherwise sharp minds to the reality of religious faith, though their own faith in science is every bit a matter of faith as well. I suspect you know this, but I had to get it off my chest because in thread after thread I find you, a sincere person, made to play the bear in their bear-baiting. Of course, it's none of my business, and I'll butt out as I should henceforth.

My beliefs are a bit more complicated.

I admit that I do believe in the concept of a god or a celestial higher power, but I don't take the word of the Bible, A creation of man, to provide an unbiased explanation of how God works.

I am more inclined to veiw the world as being governed by the embodiments of life and death.

zyzygy · May 28, 2017

Angel said:
I commend your passion and your faith, tosca1, but you are debating, in this and other threads, with atheists. They reject the very idea of God. Your arguments based on the Bible are falling on deaf ears. They don't care a fig about the Book, and they don't share your faith in a Creator. You will not convert them through argument, and they will never acknowledge the validity of your faith. We live in intolerant times. Militant atheism has poisoned many otherwise sharp minds to the reality of religious faith, though their own faith in science is every bit a matter of faith as well. I suspect you know this, but I had to get it off my chest because in thread after thread I find you, a sincere person, made to play the bear in their bear-baiting. Of course, it's none of my business, and I'll butt out as I should henceforth.

What about arguments based on other holy books?

Angel · May 28, 2017

zyzygy said:
What about arguments based on other holy books?

What about them?

tosca1 · May 29, 2017

Angel said:
I commend your passion and your faith, tosca1, but you are debating, in this and other threads, with atheists. They reject the very idea of God. Your arguments based on the Bible are falling on deaf ears. They don't care a fig about the Book, and they don't share your faith in a Creator. You will not convert them through argument, and they will never acknowledge the validity of your faith. We live in intolerant times. Militant atheism has poisoned many otherwise sharp minds to the reality of religious faith, though their own faith in science is every bit a matter of faith as well. I suspect you know this, but I had to get it off my chest because in thread after thread I find you, a sincere person, made to play the bear in their bear-baiting. Of course, it's none of my business, and I'll butt out as I should henceforth.

It would be nice if even a single atheist debating on this thread will take a moment to reflect, and be objective to what is being said. If only one of them will open his mind.....that would be nice. The thread(s) is for them to ponder upon - their choice to either take it, be open to it (at least), or reject it.

My aim is not only to give a response to all the empty cliche being parroted by militant atheists - which are usually based on ignorance, as you can see since some of them don't even understand how silly their own arguments are, and a lot of them don't even understand their own sources..........
...........but I also want to aggressively challenge these militant atheists, in showing that atheism - despite Dawkins' and the New Atheists' claim - is actually, irrational. It has nothing to stand on! None!

That's why I post topics on Philosophy (not Religion Section) - so they'll have no excuse from debating.

Since they are non-believers, I try to meet them at their "comfort level."
Thus I use, and throw science at them! You bet, this thread will also invoke science!
For all their talks and posturing about scientific methods - they tend to ignore science when it doesn't
suit their narrative!

I know that a lot of them think they troll me. That happens in other forums too. They're having their fun.
I don't mind taking the "bait".....anyway, some bait are amusing enough........and, they give me the platform to go on, and on, and on, and on....

So let them fall on deaf ears. I imagine a lot of these folks are young.
Maybe they're all deaf now.....but who knows, right?
I was far from God myself at one time, until I hit a "stage" in life. The stage when I had that terrible and desperate need to fill up that hollowness within me.

These threads are actually created for those who are truly confused, those who silently read, looking for answers.....and those being led from God, by all the anti-God propaganda of the New Atheists/militant secularists/Darwinists.

William Rea · May 29, 2017

Is someone going to explain to me how this thread is still here given this...

'This forum is dedicated and limited to discussions of a wide range of philosophical topics. Examples would be general questions regarding our world/existence, the works of Socrates, classical political philosophy such as Locke and Machiavelli, matters of faith and religion from a skeptical foundation, etc.

Discussions focused first and foremost on a political topic will not be allowed. Threads dealing with modern political ideologies belong in the "Partisan Politics and Party Platforms" section and should be started there instead.

Attempts to derail threads by continually and/or singularly attacking the idea of skepticism within theological discussions may result in thread bans and/or infractions. Expressions of ones personal faith as it relates to a topic is allowed; however, continual attempts to derail a thread by demanding others accept such views, and refusing to engage in substantive back and forth debate on the actual topic, may also result in thread bans and/or infractions.'

tosca1 · May 29, 2017

Angel said:
but I had to get it off my chest because in thread after thread I find you, a sincere person, made to play the bear in their bear-baiting.

Thank you, Angel. I've been doing this for many years. I'm used to it.

tosca1 · May 29, 2017

ataraxia said:
All holy books do this. First you would have to show how your holy book is different in these things than the Quran, or the Bhagavad Gita, or the Book of Mormon.

Do what? Have a website? Have followers who spread the doctrine?

Uh-uh. You're the one who makes the claim that "all holy books do this."
Therefore, aside from the common claim that "mine is the true religion," show me the nuts and bolts
how they're not different.

soylentgreen · May 29, 2017

tosca1 said:
It would be nice if even a single atheist debating on this thread will take a moment to reflect, and be objective to what is being said. If only one of them will open his mind.....that would be nice. The thread(s) is for them to ponder upon - their choice to either take it, be open to it (at least), or reject it.

Why do i get the feeling that that is just a one way street for you.

My aim is not only to give a response to all the empty cliche being parroted by militant atheists - which are usually based on ignorance, as you can see since some of them don't even understand how silly their own arguments are, and a lot of them don't even understand their own sources..........

That street still going one way only.

...........but I also want to aggressively challenge these militant atheists, in showing that atheism - despite Dawkins' and the New Atheists' claim - is actually, irrational. It has nothing to stand on! None!

By throwing the bible at us?

That's why I post topics on Philosophy (not Religion Section) - so they'll have no excuse from debating.

Except that the bible is a study of a particular religion which makes it theology, not philosophy.

Since they are non-believers, I try to meet them at their "comfort level."
Thus I use, and throw science at them! You bet, this thread will also invoke science!
For all their talks and posturing about scientific methods - they tend to ignore science when it doesn't
suit their narrative!

Actually i ignore science in this discussion because science does not deal with fantasy. The attempts to give belief to a god by use of science by theists usually demonstrate their poor understanding of science rather than give conviction. .
Your bible has nothing to do with science.

I know that a lot of them think they troll me. That happens in other forums too. They're having their fun.
I don't mind taking the "bait".....anyway, some bait are amusing enough........and, they give me the platform to go on, and on, and on, and on....

So let them fall on deaf ears. I imagine a lot of these folks are young.
Maybe they're all deaf now.....but who knows, right?
I was far from God myself at one time, until I hit a "stage" in life. The stage when I had that terrible and desperate need to fill up that hollowness within me.

These threads are actually created for those who are truly confused, those who silently read, looking for answers.....and those being led from God, by all the anti-God propaganda of the New Atheists/militant secularists/Darwinists

.
Actually i could not care less about you wanting to believe in a god. It is only when you try to say you have evidence or a good rational for belief that i question it. It is only when you try to impose your superstitions upon me by law that fight against it.

It is only theists who want to convert, to force their beliefs on others.

tosca1 · May 29, 2017

soylentgreen said:
Why do i get the feeling that that is just a one way street for you.

Of course, this is a one-way street for me. I'm showing The Abrahamic/Christian God exists!
I've got many evidences to back it up.

tosca1 · May 29, 2017

soylentgreen said:
.
Actually i could not care less about you wanting to believe in a god. It is only when you try to say you have evidence or a good rational for belief that i question it. It is only when you try to impose your superstitions upon me by law that fight against it.

It is only theists who want to convert, to force their beliefs on others.

And I couldn't care less if you post here, or not.

I'm not forcing you to read my arguments, am I? Did I twist your arms, or threaten you in any way?
If you have problems with any law....go to the proper section.

soylentgreen · May 29, 2017

tosca1 said:
Of course, this is a one-way street for me. I'm showing The Abrahamic/Christian God exists!
I've got many evidences to back it up.

Considering the title of this thread i am going out on a limb here and guessing you think that a book is going to provide that evidence. Which means you have nothing new and no evidence.

tosca1 · May 29, 2017

soylentgreen said:
Considering the title of this thread i am going out on a limb here and guessing you think that a book is going to provide that evidence. Which means you have nothing new and no evidence.

Did I say this thread is finito?

All I did was give the intro. Btw, did you happen to watch the video?

soylentgreen · May 29, 2017

tosca1 said:
And I couldn't care less if you post here, or not.

I'm not forcing you to read my arguments, am I? Did I twist your arms, or threaten you in any way?
If you have problems with any law....go to the proper section.

Allow me to print again your words.

I was far from God myself at one time, until I hit a "stage" in life. The stage when I had that terrible and desperate need to fill up that hollowness within me.

These threads are actually created for those who are truly confused, those who silently read, looking for answers.....and those being led from God, by all the anti-God propaganda of the New Atheists/militant secularists/Darwinists

Considering you seem to think you can just assume what motivates me to be an atheist, i thought i might try and rid you of that preconception you have.

You need to understand that there is no confusion, no being led from, no misunderstanding, no terrible and desperate need. You are not doing a good deed.

You make a claim that you have evidence. I make the claim you have none. Can you deal with that?

soylentgreen · May 29, 2017

tosca1 said:
Did I say this thread is finito?

All I did was give the intro. Btw, did you happen to watch the video?

Yes did and some of the most annoying propaganda it is. Like you it makes assumptions about many things and then treats the assumptions as if they were a truth. It, like you, assumes there is a need for a god.