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The Bible

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<alt>doxygen said:
I need to read that more closely, but it seems that the interpretation chosen there excuses the fact that God created things that turned horribly bad on him and in turn caused untold suffering by finding verses that seem to say God could have chosen to not know those things. Another interpretation is that he wanted the suffering to somehow strengthen those who survived.

Why a "loving God" would choose either course makes no sense to me. I'll try to read it more closely later.
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Since when did religion make sense?
 
Elvira said:
And He also said after He created everything," Then God saw that it was good." Was Satan good? No. Of course Satan was not Satan at that time, he was still an angel in good standing with God, in heaven...he became Satan later on after he rebelled...
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God created good and evil (see Isaiah 47:6-7)
In order that they know from the shining of the sun and from the west that there is no one besides Me; I am the Lord and there is no other.

Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these.
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<alt>doxygen said:
I need to read that more closely, but it seems that the interpretation chosen there excuses the fact that God created things that turned horribly bad on him and in turn caused untold suffering by finding verses that seem to say God could have chosen to not know those things. Another interpretation is that he wanted the suffering to somehow strengthen those who survived.

Why a "loving God" would choose either course makes no sense to me. I'll try to read it more closely later.
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It will make sense when you consider this question:

Let's make you 'god' for the moment. How would you create man with free will while at the same time not allow him to do evil if he chooses?

Your answer?
 
Logicman said:
It will make sense when you consider this question:

Let's make you 'god' for the moment. How would you create man with free will while at the same time not allow him to do evil if he chooses?

Your answer?
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Why would I create a flawed being, then punish it for being flawed? If I were perfect, could I create a flawed thing?
 
Logicman said:
It will make sense when you consider this question:

Let's make you 'god' for the moment. How would you create man with free will while at the same time not allow him to do evil if he chooses?

Your answer?
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As God I would not be subject to those rules. Who gave the God in question those rules? Assuming God gave himself those rules, why did he constain himself like that, given that the outcome is incalculable suffering and death. God knew that would happen, or he chose to cover his eyes and not see.

That's what I don't get.
 
It makes perfect sense to me...the only thing in this world that does...
 
Elvira said:
It makes perfect sense to me...the only thing in this world that does...
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Does torturing those you profess to love and sentencing them to death make sense? And 1+1=2 doesn't make sense???

I can understand faith and belief, but when it defies logic, I can't cross that bridge.
 
<alt>doxygen said:
Does torturing those you profess to love and sentencing them to death make sense? And 1+1=2 doesn't make sense???

I can understand faith and belief, but when it defies logic, I can't cross that bridge.
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In spite of what you have heard, God does not torture anyone but He has the right to declare right and wrong and anyone who does not abide by that on HIS planet that He created, He also has the right to destroy them before they destroy our earth altogether...that is what it's coming to...open your eyes and look around you....
 
<alt>doxygen said:
As God I would not be subject to those rules. Who gave the God in question those rules? Assuming God gave himself those rules, why did he constain himself like that, given that the outcome is incalculable suffering and death. God knew that would happen, or he chose to cover his eyes and not see.

That's what I don't get.
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See, you didn't have a good answer. If you were God, what would you have done differently / better so that everything would come up roses?
 
<alt>doxygen said:
Does torturing those you profess to love and sentencing them to death make sense?
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Who says God still loves those who are evil, who won't repent, and who have been judged for perdition? Justice is served.

Now I know liberals hate justice - they think anyone is redeemable. They think people are inherently good (except conservatives). But God says mankind is inherently sinful. And that matches up perfectly with history and in studying mankind.
 
One of the most epic verses in the Bible: Revelation 13:8 which has this phrase, "... the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

From that phrase we can deduce the following: 1. That God knew from the foundation of the world that Adam and Eve would fall into sin in the Garden of Eden; 2. That from the foundation of the world, God knew a sacrifice would be needed for sins; 3. That a plan to redeem mankind was formulated by God before the advent of man, and that 4. Jesus Christ - the Lamb of God (John 1:29) - would be the redeemer, and that his sacrifice was ordained by God from the beginning.

Glory be to God!
 
Logicman said:
One of the most epic verses in the Bible: Revelation 13:8 which has this phrase, "... the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

From that phrase we can deduce the following: 1. That God knew from the foundation of the world that Adam and Eve would fall into sin in the Garden of Eden; 2. That from the foundation of the world, God knew a sacrifice would be needed for sins; 3. That a plan to redeem mankind was formulated by God before the advent of man, and that 4. Jesus Christ - the Lamb of God (John 1:29) - would be the redeemer, and that his sacrifice was ordained by God from the beginning.

Glory be to God!
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Moderator's Warning:
Some of you may have forgotten the rules of this sub-forum. I will remind you:

Zyphlin said:
This forum is dedicated and limited to discussions of a wide range of philosophical topics. Examples would be general questions regarding our world/existence, the works of Socrates, classical political philosophy such as Locke and Machiavelli, matters of faith and religion from a skeptical foundation, etc.

Discussions focused first and foremost on a political topic will not be allowed. Threads dealing with modern political ideologies belong in the "Partisan Politics and Party Platforms" section and should be started there instead.

Attempts to derail threads by continually and/or singularly attacking the idea of skepticism within theological discussions may result in thread bans and/or infractions. Expressions of ones personal faith as it relates to a topic is allowed; however, continual attempts to derail a thread by demanding others accept such views, and refusing to engage in substantive back and forth debate on the actual topic, may also result in thread bans and/or infractions.
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Posts like the one quoted are not appropriate here, but appropriate for the Religion Forum. THIS forum is for debating issue such as the thread topic, NOT proselytizing or demanding that one's faith is truth.
 
The Creator has intimate knowledge of His creation, another evidence is given to indicate the divine inspiration of the Bible, by revealing detailed knowledge of the physical world that was not understood by ‘science’ until many centuries, if not millennia, later.



Pleiades, Orion and Arcturus (PART 1)





Job 38
31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?



In the verse, God seems to challenge Job's ability to “bind the sweet influences of Pleiades” - as if saying, “Job, do you think you can keep Pleiades together?” Pleiades (aka Seven Sisters), is an open star cluster in the constellation of Taurus.


It is classified as an open cluster because it is a group of hundreds of stars formed from the same cosmic cloud. They are approximately the same age and have roughly the same chemical composition. Most importantly, they are bound to one another by mutual gravitational attraction.

Isabel Lewis of the United States Naval Observatory (quoted by Phillip L. Knox in Wonder Worlds) said, “Astronomers have identified 250 stars as actual members of this group, all sharing in a common motion and drifting through space in the same direction.”

The Pleiades stars may thus be compared to a swarm of birds, flying together to a distant goal. This leaves no doubt that the Pleiades are not a temporary or accidental agglomeration of stars, but a system in which the stars are bound together by a close kinship.

From our perspective on Earth, the Pleiades will not change in appearance; these stars are marching together in formation toward the same destination, bound in unison, just as God described them. ”
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Is the Astronomy in the Book of Job Scientifically Consistent? | Cold Case Christianity

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The Creator has intimate knowledge of His creation, another evidence is given to indicate the divine inspiration of the Bible, by revealing detailed knowledge of the physical world that was not understood by ‘science’ until many centuries, if not millennia, later.



Pleiades, Orion and Arcturus (PART 2)





Job 38
31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?



In the verse, God seems to challenge if Job can “loose the bands of Orion.” This refers to the “belt” of Orion.


Orion’s belt is formed by two stars (Alnilam, and Mintaka) and one star cluster (Alnitak). Alnitak is actually a triple star system at the eastern edge of Orion’s belt. These stars (along with all the other stars forming Orion) are not gravitationally bound like those in Pleiades. Instead, the stars of Orion’s belt are heading in different directions.

Unlike the Pleaides clusters, the stars in the band of Orion do not share a common trajectory. In the course of time, Orion’s belt will be loosened just as God told Job.
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Is the Astronomy in the Book of Job Scientifically Consistent? | Cold Case Christianity


The great figure of Orion appears to be more lasting, not because its stars are physically connected, but because of their great distance, which renders their movements too deliberate to be exactly ascertained. Two of the greatest of its stars, Betelgeuse and Rigel, possess, as far as has been ascertained, no perceptible motion across the line of sight, but there is a little movement perceptible in the ''Belt.'' At the present time this consists of an almost perfect straight line, a row of second-magnitude stars about equally spaced and of the most striking beauty.
In the course of time, however, the two right-hand stars, Mintaka and Alnilam (how fine are these Arabic star names!) will approach each other and form a naked-eye double, but the third, Alnita, will drift away eastward, so that the ''Belt'' will no longer exist.
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Curiosities Of The Sky Part 2 Online | Novelonlinefree.com


https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/chandra/more-than-meets-the-eye-delta-orionis-in-orions-belt.html



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In the verse, God seems to challenge Job if he can direct Arcturus (and his sons), anywhere he wants.




Arcturus (/ɑːrkˈtjʊərəs/), also designated Alpha Boötis (α Boötis, abbreviated Alpha Boo, α Boo), is the brightest star in the constellation of Boötes, the fourth-brightest in the night sky, and the brightest in the northern celestial hemisphere. Together with Spica and Denebola (or Regulus, depending on the source), Arcturus is part of the Spring Triangle asterism and, by extension, also of the Great Diamond along with the star Cor Caroli.
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 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcturus




While Arcturus certainly appeared in antiquity to be a single star, in 1971 astronomers discovered there were 52 additional stars connected directionally with Arcturus (known now as the Arcturus stream).

Interestingly, God described Arcturus as having “sons” and Charles Burckhalter, of the Chabot Observatory, (again quoted in Wonder Worlds) said “these stars are a law unto themselves.” Serviss added, “Arcturus is one of the greatest suns in the universe, is a runaway whose speed of flight is 257 miles per second.

Newton gives the velocity of a star under control as not more than 25 miles a second, and Arcturus is going 257 miles a second.
Therefore, combined attraction of all the stars we know cannot stop him or even turn him in his path.”
Arcturus and “his sons” are on a course all their own. Only God has the power to guide them, just as described in the ancient book of Job.
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Is the Astronomy in the Book of Job Scientifically Consistent? | Cold Case Christianity



Though astronomy dates back to antiquities, and is the oldest of natural sciences......the Bible gives some information that are not observable without modern-day technology.
 
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Logicman said:
See, you didn't have a good answer. If you were God, what would you have done differently / better so that everything would come up roses?
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Simple. Don't create evil in the first place.

You are the one saying that God needed evil and free will to exist. So God gets Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc. along with their victims because God wanted people to be able to do evil.

Yeah, that's "loving". And really logical. :roll:
 
<alt>doxygen said:
Simple. Don't create evil in the first place.

You are the one saying that God needed evil and free will to exist. So God gets Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc. along with their victims because God wanted people to be able to do evil.

Yeah, that's "loving". And really logical. :roll:
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Not true...God did not create evil and He hates evil...He soon will do away with evil forever...Satan raised an issue when he persuaded Adam and Eve to disobey...it was a question of sovereignty...who had the right to rule mankind...God or Satan...so in order to prove that, God had to step back and allow Satan enough time to prove whether his rule of mankind was for our own good or not...thus the result of Satan's rule is world we live in today...Satan's rule has failed and he has proven without a doubt, God knows what is best for mankind and only God has the right to tell mankind how to live, in order to benefit themselves...soon God's rule will come to be...on earth, as it is in heaven...mankind will live on a paradise earth forever, as God originally purposed...Satan and his angels, along with all those who rebel God's rule, will be no more...
 
Elvira said:
Not true...God did not create evil and He hates evil...He soon will do away with evil forever...Satan raised an issue when he persuaded Adam and Eve to disobey...it was a question of sovereignty...who had the right to rule mankind...God or Satan...so in order to prove that, God had to step back and allow Satan enough time to prove whether his rule of mankind was for our own good or not...thus the result of Satan's rule is world we live in today...Satan's rule has failed and he has proven without a doubt, God knows what is best for mankind and only God has the right to tell mankind how to live, in order to benefit themselves...soon God's rule will come to be...on earth, as it is in heaven...mankind will live on a paradise earth forever, as God originally purposed...Satan and his angels, along with all those who rebel God's rule, will be no more...
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He created evil. Where did it come from otherwise? If he can do away with it, why did he allow it, and why hasn't he got rid of it already??
 
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Manc Skipper said:
He created evil. Where did it come from otherwise? If he can do away with it, why did he allow it, and why hasn't he got rid of it already??
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Are you mature enough to understand not everything can be addressed/answered immediately? What if God destroyed Satan, Adam and Eve right there on the spot? Would the question of who has the right to universal sovereignty be answered? Of course not...who's to say that some time int he future the issue would not arise again, by another human or perhaps another angel? All they would have to say is "Hey God, you did not give Satan a chance...how do we know his way would not have worked?" And this whole crap would have started all over again...this way, with God allowing things to be played out, we know the answer...all God's creatures know what the outcome of rule by anyone other than our Creator turns out...chaos, sin and death...Jehovah has the right to rule his creation...period...
 
Elvira said:
Are you mature enough to understand not everything can be addressed/answered immediately? What if God destroyed Satan, Adam and Eve right there on the spot? Would the question of who has the right to universal sovereignty be answered? Of course not...who's to say that some time int he future the issue would not arise again, by another human or perhaps another angel? All they would have to say is "Hey God, you did not give Satan a chance...how do we know his way would not have worked?" And this whole crap would have started all over again...this way, with God allowing things to be played out, we know the answer...all God's creatures know what the outcome of rule by anyone other than our Creator turns out...chaos, sin and death...Jehovah has the right to rule his creation...period...
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If evil exists, it came from the creator., otherwise there's another creator around.
 
Elvira said:
Not true...God did not create evil and He hates evil...He soon will do away with evil forever...Satan raised an issue when he persuaded Adam and Eve to disobey...it was a question of sovereignty...who had the right to rule mankind...God or Satan...so in order to prove that, God had to step back and allow Satan enough time to prove whether his rule of mankind was for our own good or not...thus the result of Satan's rule is world we live in today...Satan's rule has failed and he has proven without a doubt, God knows what is best for mankind and only God has the right to tell mankind how to live, in order to benefit themselves...soon God's rule will come to be...on earth, as it is in heaven...mankind will live on a paradise earth forever, as God originally purposed...Satan and his angels, along with all those who rebel God's rule, will be no more...
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Don't you believe the bible?? IT says right in the bible that god created evil.
 
Elvira said:
Not true...God did not create evil and He hates evil...He soon will do away with evil forever...Satan raised an issue when he persuaded Adam and Eve to disobey...it was a question of sovereignty...who had the right to rule mankind...God or Satan...so in order to prove that, God had to step back and allow Satan enough time to prove whether his rule of mankind was for our own good or not...thus the result of Satan's rule is world we live in today...Satan's rule has failed and he has proven without a doubt, God knows what is best for mankind and only God has the right to tell mankind how to live, in order to benefit themselves...soon God's rule will come to be...on earth, as it is in heaven...mankind will live on a paradise earth forever, as God originally purposed...Satan and his angels, along with all those who rebel God's rule, will be no more...
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https://www.gotquestions.org/Isaiah-45-7.html

The bible says God created evil. Of course, that would be 'bad', so there are rationalizations.

As to the rest of your post:
What is bothersome about the concept of this all being some contest between God and Satan (who was created by God) or good/evil is that there is so much death and suffering allowed, simply so God can prove, "I'm the boss". That is especially the case if you believe that God can and will intercede in the world when he wants to.
 
Manc Skipper said:
If evil exists, it came from the creator., otherwise there's another creator around.
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No He did not...we create our own evil, just as Satan, Adam and Eve, and everyone else down through history has done...

"When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone. But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire." James 1:13,14
 
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