Is behavior based on empathy an example of "self-interest"

Let's say someone does crack and dies.
Their family mourns them.

Who is this a tragedy for? The family, not the person. They can't experance tragedy, as they're dead.
So is the family's desire to mourn a result of "self-interest"
So they're not grieving for their loved one, they're grieving for themselves.

I'm a big believer in the idea that over 99% of human behavior is based on the pursuit of self-interest, whether it be rational or not. In a sense, there's no such thing as "altruism", as empathy itself is an example of self-interest.

So if you see a starving child, and you give them food. You did that because your empathy demanded you to do it, making your action just as much "self-interest" as if you ate the food in front of him/her.
Both actions are equally selfish

Grieving is an expression of being sad at not having any further contact with the dead person in this life--no more possibility to clear anything up, play monopoly with them, go to Europe, or just have a nice conversation over a cup of tea. It doesn't make any sense to say that sadness or grief is performed for someone (including oneself). It's not an intentional state.

I have no idea why it would be considered pursuit of self interest to give food to a child, unless one did it for a photo op or something.

ashurbanipal said:

Grieving is an expression of being sad at not having any further contact with the dead person in this life--no more possibility to clear anything up, play monopoly with them, go to Europe, or just have a nice conversation over a cup of tea. It doesn't make any sense to say that sadness or grief is performed for someone (including oneself). It's not an intentional state.

I have no idea why it would be considered pursuit of self interest to give food to a child, unless one did it for a photo op or something.

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Well, doesn't it feel good to help other people? Even if you get no tangible reward for it. You do feel something. And I'm sure someone who felt nothing at all, wouldn't give generously to others

whateverdude said:

Well, doesn't it feel good to help other people? Even if you get no tangible reward for it. You do feel something.

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Suppose I grant this point. It wouldn't show that the good feeling in question is the motive for taking an altruistic action.

whateverdude said:

And I'm sure someone who felt nothing at all, wouldn't give generously to others.

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I agree, but that's because empathy and compassion are themselves affective. One does things for others because of those feelings, not necessarily because of the good feeling one gets after the fact. As for my own experience, I don't get that good feeling. For example, when I give a homeless person money, I usually feel pretty depressed for an hour or so afterward. I usually wish I could have done more, and I feel horror at the state of the world that it should even be necessary for someone to be begging for money.

whateverdude said:

I'm a big believer in the idea that over 99% of human behavior is based on the pursuit of self-interest, whether it be rational or not. In a sense, there's no such thing as "altruism", as empathy itself is an example of self-interest.

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I suppose if I pointed to those who've made the ultimate sacrifice for others, you'd dismiss the counterexample merely as part of your 1%, yes?
But that 1% is like the black swan, it seems to me. Its discovery means we can no longer say "All swans are white."
Self-sacrifice on the part of some does the same thing to your thesis of self-interest on the part of all.

whateverdude said:

So if you see a starving child, and you give them food. You did that because your empathy demanded you to do it, making your action just as much "self-interest" as if you ate the food in front of him/her.
Both actions are equally selfish

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Both actions may be equally selfish, but the latter is has more morality as it contributes to the well-being of another human being.

whateverdude said:

Let's say someone does crack and dies.
Their family mourns them.

Who is this a tragedy for? The family, not the person. They can't experance tragedy, as they're dead.
So is the family's desire to mourn a result of "self-interest"
So they're not grieving for their loved one, they're grieving for themselves.

I'm a big believer in the idea that over 99% of human behavior is based on the pursuit of self-interest, whether it be rational or not. In a sense, there's no such thing as "altruism", as empathy itself is an example of self-interest.

So if you see a starving child, and you give them food. You did that because your empathy demanded you to do it, making your action just as much "self-interest" as if you ate the food in front of him/her.
Both actions are equally selfish

Click to expand...

Empathy by its very definition is unselfish, its the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. If your empathy is forcing you to do something, its because you understand and share their feelings. Otherwise its not empathy you are acting on.

As for grieving, there is no desire to mourn. There is just the deep agonizing feeling of loss. Mourning happens to you, you don't choose it. And part of that feeling is the realization that the person you are mourning can't feel anything or do anything ever again. It makes you physically sick. It's a whole new level of anxiety, sleepless nights, and depression. There is nothing selfish about the grieving process. Just like there is nothing selfish about being hit by a car, accepting help when you are hurt isn't a ploy for attention. It's what you are supposed to do, its a function of our society to help each other when we are hurt.

Nothing hurts as much, and it never goes away. It's worse than if you had died yourself. And you often find yourself pleading to the air, wishing it had been you instead. That they would be, could be, still be alive. The only thing keeping you together is other people you love feeling the same way. Not wanting to put them through this a second time.

It's a feeling I'm glad you have never experienced, and I hope you never do.