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God, as We Know it, Debunked or Not?

calamity

calamity

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It seems to me that a common theme comes up every time we discuss the "there is a god; no there is not, well maybe there is or maybe not" issue in this forum. What the hell do we really mean by "God"?

So, let's start by a rough definition of the commonly accepted God in today's vernacular. God is the creator of the universe. Sticking to the monotheist version, it is also commonly accepted that God is it, the ultimate power in the universe. There is no other--although the Christians seem to have this Jesus thing, which I guess needs to be slipped into the conversation somewhere. But, I'm not sure where exactly.

For now, I think we can agree that the common definition of God also puts man on a pretty high pedestal. God, after all, created man in his image, they say. So, God is the almighty, creator of all with a special affinity for man. Do I have that right?

Ok, now let's look at that. The universe is 14 Billion years old. Earth is 4 Billion years old. Life, beyond single cell bacteria and other extremely simple forms of it, has been around for roughly a Billion, with most of what we really understand life to be existing for maybe 500 million, post Cambrian Explosion. Since then there have been 5 mass extinctions which wiped out all the creatures that once dominated the planet, and roughly 2 million years ago, the first signs of anything even close to man finally emerged. Real man emerged maybe 50,000 years ago and civilization less than 10,000.

For those who have a hard time with big numbers: figure that if the universe were 14 years old, Earth would be five, life about a year, and man as we know him has been around for about 5 minutes, give or take. Dinosaurs died out about a month ago, to give you some perspective.

Well, that leaves the obvious question. If God made all of this empty space for us--and, lordy lordy the universe is full of a whole lot of empty dead space, at least that is all we know of it so far judging by the lifeless planets and moons in our solar system--why did he wait so long to plop man into the game? What gives? Was God practicing with Dinosaurs, Pelycosaurs, Archosaurs, Therapsids, and Synapsids?

I guess my question is, and what can be debated here is, does this time-lag not debunk the existence of "god" as we defined it?
 
Reality doesn't matter when there's magic involved.


Maybe God got bored. Dude was all like, "Dude, this place sucks. Let's liven it up a bit!" So he made humans, who were full of averice, greed, lust, and aggression, and then told them not to be any of those things that he made in us....or else.

Everything after has likely been the best entertainment any deity could ever hope for.
 
calamity said:
It seems to me that a common theme comes up every time we discuss the "there is a god; no there is not, well maybe there is or maybe not" issue in this forum. What the hell do we really mean by "God"?

So, let's start by a rough definition of the commonly accepted God in today's vernacular. God is the creator of the universe. Sticking to the monotheist version, it is also commonly accepted that God is it, the ultimate power in the universe. There is no other--although the Christians seem to have this Jesus thing, which I guess needs to be slipped into the conversation somewhere. But, I'm not sure where exactly.

For now, I think we can agree that the common definition of God also puts man on a pretty high pedestal. God, after all, created man in his image, they say. So, God is the almighty, creator of all with a special affinity for man. Do I have that right?

Ok, now let's look at that. The universe is 14 Billion years old. Earth is 4 Billion years old. Life, beyond single cell bacteria and other extremely simple forms of it, has been around for roughly a Billion, with most of what we really understand life to be existing for maybe 500 million, post Cambrian Explosion. Since then there have been 5 mass extinctions which wiped out all the creatures that once dominated the planet, and roughly 2 million years ago, the first signs of anything even close to man finally emerged. Real man emerged maybe 50,000 years ago and civilization less than 10,000.

For those who have a hard time with big numbers: figure that if the universe were 14 years old, Earth would be five, life about a year, and man as we know him has been around for about 5 minutes, give or take. Dinosaurs died out about a month ago, to give you some perspective.

Well, that leaves the obvious question. If God made all of this empty space for us--and, lordy lordy the universe is full of a whole lot of empty dead space, at least that is all we know of it so far judging by the lifeless planets and moons in our solar system--why did he wait so long to plop man into the game? What gives? Was God practicing with Dinosaurs, Pelycosaurs, Archosaurs, Therapsids, and Synapsids?

I guess my question is, and what can be debated here is, does this time-lag not debunk the existence of "god" as we defined it?
Click to expand...

Short answer? No, it does not debunk the existence of God.

You are trying to understand the workings of an entity so beyond our comprehension that you feel you must try to box it in so as to discuss it.

Time has no meaning to the idea of Deity. Purpose has no meaning to this idea. That is our construct in order to try to grasp the complexity of the universe. All based on the idea that we, humanity, must be the center and focus of such Deity.

But we see that what little we do know of this Universe is merely a drop in the bucket of vast, still to be discovered unknowns. That there is more than we can see or comprehend, as we learn daily of new wonders.

Why then do we think we can box this idea of Deity up within our own limited ability to comprehend?

So, no...just because we cannot fanthom all the purposes behind Creation dies not mean Deity has been debunked.

It just means that like any child, as we grow we learn more...but will never know all there is to know about life, the universe, and everything. :coffeepap:
 
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One problem with the creator definition is that a being no smarter than the average human could possibly create a universe with the proper technology.
 
Captain Adverse said:
Short answer? No, it does not debunk the existence of God.

You are trying to understand the workings of an entity so beyond our comprehension that you feel you must try to box it in so as to discuss it.

Time has no meaning to the idea of Deity. Purpose has no meaning to this idea. That is our construct in order to try to grasp the complexity of the universe. All based on the idea that we, humanity, must be the center and focus of such Deity.

But we see that what little we do know of this Universe is merely a drop in the bucket of vast, still to be discovered unknowns. That there is more than we can see or comprehend, as we learn daily of new wonders.

Why then do we think we can box this idea of Deity up within our own limited ability to comprehend?

So, no...just because we cannot fanthom all the purposes behind Creation dies not mean Deity has been debunked.

It just means that like any child, as we grow we learn more...but will never know all there is to know about life, the universe, and everything. :coffeepap:
Click to expand...

I understand. That's why I was trying to pin it down. If we just let "god" be anything, well then there is no way to say yes or no. And, that's fruitless. So, I figured it would be best to focus on our definition of Him and start shooting at it.
 
BrewerBob said:
One problem with the creator definition is that a being no smarter than the average human could possibly create a universe with the proper technology.
Click to expand...

I believe this is a possible explanation for our existence. Some creature in the far and wide is running an experiment...perhaps even an experiment that is self-sustaining. He's just out there somewhere jotting data into a lab book as all these things unfold. Perhaps, he is sipping on cosmic coffee as we speak.
 
BrewerBob said:
One problem with the creator definition is that a being no smarter than the average human could possibly create a universe with the proper technology.
Click to expand...

The imagination of the Creator is limitless and beyond our ken.
 
calamity said:
It seems to me that a common theme comes up every time we discuss the "there is a god; no there is not, well maybe there is or maybe not" issue in this forum. What the hell do we really mean by "God"?

So, let's start by a rough definition of the commonly accepted God in today's vernacular. God is the creator of the universe. Sticking to the monotheist version, it is also commonly accepted that God is it, the ultimate power in the universe. There is no other--although the Christians seem to have this Jesus thing, which I guess needs to be slipped into the conversation somewhere. But, I'm not sure where exactly.

For now, I think we can agree that the common definition of God also puts man on a pretty high pedestal. God, after all, created man in his image, they say. So, God is the almighty, creator of all with a special affinity for man. Do I have that right?

Ok, now let's look at that. The universe is 14 Billion years old. Earth is 4 Billion years old. Life, beyond single cell bacteria and other extremely simple forms of it, has been around for roughly a Billion, with most of what we really understand life to be existing for maybe 500 million, post Cambrian Explosion. Since then there have been 5 mass extinctions which wiped out all the creatures that once dominated the planet, and roughly 2 million years ago, the first signs of anything even close to man finally emerged. Real man emerged maybe 50,000 years ago and civilization less than 10,000.

For those who have a hard time with big numbers: figure that if the universe were 14 years old, Earth would be five, life about a year, and man as we know him has been around for about 5 minutes, give or take. Dinosaurs died out about a month ago, to give you some perspective.

Well, that leaves the obvious question. If God made all of this empty space for us--and, lordy lordy the universe is full of a whole lot of empty dead space, at least that is all we know of it so far judging by the lifeless planets and moons in our solar system--why did he wait so long to plop man into the game? What gives? Was God practicing with Dinosaurs, Pelycosaurs, Archosaurs, Therapsids, and Synapsids?

I guess my question is, and what can be debated here is, does this time-lag not debunk the existence of "god" as we defined it?
Click to expand...

Oh, no! The He set the Universe in motion into cause and effect to create us in His likeness to show off His good looks, by sending us by celestial UPS to His friends.
 
nota bene said:
The imagination of the Creator is limitless and beyond our ken.
Click to expand...

Probably we were His raison d'etre and as a driven spirit He did us.
 
BrewerBob said:
One problem with the creator definition is that a being no smarter than the average human could possibly create a universe with the proper technology.
Click to expand...

You mean to suggest that He is actually the Great Mechanic?
 
calamity said:
It seems to me that a common theme comes up every time we discuss the "there is a god; no there is not, well maybe there is or maybe not" issue in this forum. What the hell do we really mean by "God"?

So, let's start by a rough definition of the commonly accepted God in today's vernacular. God is the creator of the universe. Sticking to the monotheist version, it is also commonly accepted that God is it, the ultimate power in the universe. There is no other--although the Christians seem to have this Jesus thing, which I guess needs to be slipped into the conversation somewhere. But, I'm not sure where exactly.

For now, I think we can agree that the common definition of God also puts man on a pretty high pedestal. God, after all, created man in his image, they say. So, God is the almighty, creator of all with a special affinity for man. Do I have that right?

Ok, now let's look at that. The universe is 14 Billion years old. Earth is 4 Billion years old. Life, beyond single cell bacteria and other extremely simple forms of it, has been around for roughly a Billion, with most of what we really understand life to be existing for maybe 500 million, post Cambrian Explosion. Since then there have been 5 mass extinctions which wiped out all the creatures that once dominated the planet, and roughly 2 million years ago, the first signs of anything even close to man finally emerged. Real man emerged maybe 50,000 years ago and civilization less than 10,000.

For those who have a hard time with big numbers: figure that if the universe were 14 years old, Earth would be five, life about a year, and man as we know him has been around for about 5 minutes, give or take. Dinosaurs died out about a month ago, to give you some perspective.

Well, that leaves the obvious question. If God made all of this empty space for us--and, lordy lordy the universe is full of a whole lot of empty dead space, at least that is all we know of it so far judging by the lifeless planets and moons in our solar system--why did he wait so long to plop man into the game? What gives? Was God practicing with Dinosaurs, Pelycosaurs, Archosaurs, Therapsids, and Synapsids?

I guess my question is, and what can be debated here is, does this time-lag not debunk the existence of "god" as we defined it?
Click to expand...

I would answer you question this way.

At best you will live less than 100 years

In such a small amount of time why do you need the answers to such profound questions?

The Lord that created us will provide for our spiritual needs and prepare us for the next life where you will have all the time you need to ponder the deeper mysteries of life
 
Mac77 said:
In such a small amount of time why do you need the answers to such profound questions?
Click to expand...

Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly.
 
Ikari said:
Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly.
Click to expand...

Exactly

Bird does not have to know all about the Theory of Aerodynamics to get from one place to another
 
Mac77 said:
Exactly

Bird does not have to know all about the Theory of Aerodynamics to get from one place to another
Click to expand...

....never read Vonnegut, have you.
 
Mac77 said:
Never

Is that a serious blemish on my character?
Click to expand...

Yes. One of the greatest American authors. Anyway, the full quote is

Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly
Man got to sit and wonder why why why
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land
Man got to tell himself he understand

It speaks to the fundamental. Humans think, our intelligence is what won evolution, it's what set us apart from everything else. You ask why is it that one has to ponder such profound questions, why do we need the answers, and it's because we're human. We have to think. We have to believe at the end of the day we understand, it's innate to our very nature.

In fact, it's why we have gods in the first place, as highlighted by your response.

The Lord that created us will provide for our spiritual needs and prepare us for the next life where you will have all the time you need to ponder the deeper mysteries of life
Click to expand...

At the end of the day, we have to believe we know. And gods provide for that. There are plenty of unknowns out there, and mankind cannot help but think of them and seek answers. But some of this stuff doesn't have answers right then and there, some may never have answers, others will take some time to figure out. And in the interim, we need to think we know. And thus gods were born. God did X, god know Y, whatever it is that we need to think that at the end of the day we know the answer.

Gods are an artifact of high-intelligence. We invented them because they make us feel better in the end. And that's also why you see the evolution of humanity's gods. They started as representations of the physical, of elements, and as we learn more and begin to know more, we refine our gods. They became less tangible, more magical as more and more measurement and science added to the collective knowledge of the race. And they'll continue to evolve as we learn more and more. But there's likely always going to be some unknown, so gods are likely to exist in some form for quite some time.
 
Ikari said:
Yes. One of the greatest American authors. Anyway, the full quote is

Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly
Man got to sit and wonder why why why
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land
Man got to tell himself he understand

It speaks to the fundamental. Humans think, our intelligence is what won evolution, it's what set us apart from everything else. You ask why is it that one has to ponder such profound questions, why do we need the answers, and it's because we're human. We have to think. We have to believe at the end of the day we understand, it's innate to our very nature.

In fact, it's why we have gods in the first place, as highlighted by your response.







At the end of the day, we have to believe we know.

And gods provide for that. There are plenty of unknowns out there, and mankind cannot help but think of them and seek answers. But some of this stuff doesn't have answers right then and there, some may never have answers, others will take some time to figure out. And in the interim, we need to think we know. And thus gods were born. God did X, god know Y, whatever it is that we need to think that at the end of the day we know the answer.

Gods are an artifact of high-intelligence. We invented them because they make us feel better in the end. And that's also why you see the evolution of humanity's gods. They started as representations of the physical, of elements, and as we learn more and begin to know more, we refine our gods. They became less tangible, more magical as more and more measurement and science added to the collective knowledge of the race. And they'll continue to evolve as we learn more and more. But there's likely always going to be some unknown, so gods are likely to exist in some form for quite some time.
Click to expand...

My belief is pretty simple

The miracle of life cannot be explained by godless humans who believe in nothing

This cannot all be the result of dumb luck

God created us for a purpose and without a Creator none of this would exist

I dont have to know more than that

Let Vonnegut sit around pondering the unknowable

I have better things to do with my life
 
Mac77 said:
My belief is pretty simple

The miracle of life cannot be explained by godless humans who believe in nothing

This cannot all be the result of dumb luck

God created us for a purpose and without a Creator none of this would exist

I dont have to know more than that

Let Vonnegut sit around pondering the unknowable

I have better things to do with my life
Click to expand...

I'm sure, but you do realize you have proven my point, yes?
 
nota bene said:
The imagination of the Creator is limitless and beyond our ken.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a cop out--just another "God works in mysterious ways" explanation.
 
joG said:
Oh, no! The He set the Universe in motion into cause and effect to create us in His likeness to show off His good looks, by sending us by celestial UPS to His friends.
Click to expand...

Yeah...exactly. God created all that other stuff, then let it die off, only so that we could evolve from it and be like him.
 
Mac77 said:
I would answer you question this way.

At best you will live less than 100 years

In such a small amount of time why do you need the answers to such profound questions?

The Lord that created us will provide for our spiritual needs and prepare us for the next life where you will have all the time you need to ponder the deeper mysteries of life
Click to expand...

Well, since I don't believe in any "next life," I try to answer most of what I can in this one.
 
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