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When does Atheism Become a Belief System

calamity

calamity

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First, I'll admit I am more of a believer than a non-believer. I believe that there are no gods. I also believe that there is good reason to believe that there are no gods. But, of course, I am not sure of that. So...I guess I see myself as atheist-light.

Given the above, I kind of see a need for establishing a reference guide which delineates the the various degrees of Atheism, from true agnostic to the hard line disbeliever.

Rough template:

Agnostic: Has no idea if gods exist or not, doesn't really care either way.

Atheist 5th degree: Simply does not believe in gods, does not care if others do believe or say that gods exist

Atheist 4th Degree: Also does not believe in gods, says he does not care if others do believe or not, but tends to challenge anyone who does

Atheist 3rd Degree: Does not believe in gods, but argues furiously with those who say they do believe or that they exist

Atheist 2nd Degree: Believes gods do not exist, but is willing to accept that they just might

Atheist 1st Degree: Believes gods do not exist and mocks anyone who even hints at the notion that they might



Thoughts, additions, critiques, etc. ?
 
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calamity said:
First, I'll admit I am more of a believer than a non-believer. I believe that there are no gods. I also believe that there is good reason to believe that there are no gods. But, of course, I am not sure of that. So...I guess I see myself as atheist-light.

Given the above, I kind of see a need for establishing a reference guide which delineates the the various degrees of Atheism, from true agnostic to the hard line disbeliever.

Rough template:

Agnostic: Has no idea if gods exist or not, doesn't really care either way.

Atheist 5th degree: Simply does not believe in gods, does not care if others do believe or say that gods exist

Atheist 4th Degree: Also does not believe in gods, does not care if others do believe or not, but challenges anyone who says they exist

Atheist 3rd Degree: Does not believe in gods, but has a bit of a problem with those who say they do believe or that they exist

Atheist 2nd Degree: Believes gods do not exist, but is willing to accept that they just might

Atheist 1st Degree: Believes gods do not exist and mocks anyone who even hints at the notion that they might



Thoughts, additions, critiques, etc. ?
Click to expand...

2nd degree is spot on for me.

Personally, I think both Theism and Atheism are impossible to prove (barring any sudden, public appearances), and either will require some degree of believing, guessing, or assuming. People tend to embarrass themselves by arguing they are not believing, guessing, or assuming and then go on to attempt to justify their beliefs, guesses, and assumptions.
 
calamity said:
First, I'll admit I am more of a believer than a non-believer. I believe that there are no gods. I also believe that there is good reason to believe that there are no gods. But, of course, I am not sure of that. So...I guess I see myself as atheist-light.

Given the above, I kind of see a need for establishing a reference guide which delineates the the various degrees of Atheism, from true agnostic to the hard line disbeliever.

Rough template:

Agnostic: Has no idea if gods exist or not, doesn't really care either way.

Atheist 5th degree: Simply does not believe in gods, does not care if others do believe or say that gods exist

Atheist 4th Degree: Also does not believe in gods, says he does not care if others do believe or not, but tends to challenge anyone who does

Atheist 3rd Degree: Does not believe in gods, but argues furiously with those who say they do believe or that they exist

Atheist 2nd Degree: Believes gods do not exist, but is willing to accept that they just might

Atheist 1st Degree: Believes gods do not exist and mocks anyone who even hints at the notion that they might



Thoughts, additions, critiques, etc. ?
Click to expand...
A belief or disbelief in a God does not = a belief system. A belief system provides a foundation for right and wrong. It provides the foundation of morality. If you dont believe in a God you still should know what you believe about right or wrong, life, etc and should be able to clearly identify it and live within it. Similarly...just saying you believe there is a God does not mean you understand that belief or what belief holds re morality, forgiveness, healing, repentance, society, etc.
 
shagg said:
2nd degree is spot on for me.

Personally, I think both Theism and Atheism are impossible to prove (barring any sudden, public appearances), and either will require some degree of believing, guessing, or assuming. People tend to embarrass themselves by arguing they are not believing, guessing, or assuming and then go on to attempt to justify their beliefs, guesses, and assumptions.
Click to expand...

Yep. I guess it is possible to hold a position on this god stuff without having any belief whatsoever, either pro or con, but that seems to me to be hard to do. So, like you, I am comfortable holding a belief but being open to the possibility that I may be wrong.
 
VanceMack said:
A belief or disbelief in a God does not = a belief system. A belief system provides a foundation for right and wrong. It provides the foundation of morality. If you dont believe in a God you still should know what you believe about right or wrong, life, etc and should be able to clearly identify it and live within it. Similarly...just saying you believe there is a God does not mean you understand that belief or what belief holds re morality, forgiveness, healing, repentance, society, etc.
Click to expand...

Personally I cannot see how a belief that there is no god is not, in and of itself, a belief.

As for a belief system? I have to think about that. I guess that would depend on how you define "system." I may not believe in gods or gods, but I may very well have a complex belief system which tries to tie the greater universe into my personal experiences. I don't even know if I could explain it...but a system I do have.
 
calamity said:
Personally I cannot see how a belief that there is no god is not, in and of itself, a belief.

As for a belief system? I have to think about that. I guess that would depend on how you define "system." I may not believe in gods or gods, but I may very well have a complex belief system which tries to tie the greater universe into my personal experiences. I don't even know if I could explain it...but a system I do have.
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It is a belief...just not a belief system. Pedro Ceranno believes in the great Jobu...but if he doesnt live his life in concordance with his belief system, Jobu still wont help him hit the curve ball.

In most if not all cases God is the author of our belief systems. Even those that reject a belief in a God (may try to but really) cannot deny that all of our belief systems when it comes to right/wrong, morality, charity, etc are influenced by society and society has been (in the vast majority of instances) defined by religion. 'Should' is typically defined by someone elses value system.

In my opinion, of course.
 
I'm right in the middle. I'm probably more of an agnostic. I was raised in a Baptist church, as a young adult I was quite religious. I took my child to Sunday School, because I felt it would help insure a strong sense of personal morals. Later when she hit college age, members of our local church started sending me right wing e-mails. What? No, God doesn't have a political party. That had an opposite affect on me. I no longer attend. And what's more. I've never felt that if there is a God, he/she may be anything like any major religions think. There is no proof that a supreme being ever interfered in anything man does. Did the seeds of life merely happen or were they planted on our planet?
 
calamity said:
Personally I cannot see how a belief that there is no god is not, in and of itself, a belief.

As for a belief system? I have to think about that. I guess that would depend on how you define "system." I may not believe in gods or gods, but I may very well have a complex belief system which tries to tie the greater universe into my personal experiences. I don't even know if I could explain it...but a system I do have.
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Is Not believing, or outright Disbelieving in Astrology or Alchemy a "belief system."
Once you've been on this board a year (and you have), you must have seen this effectively-the-same OP many times. Many variants of 'Is atheism a religion.'.

Yet... here we are again.
 
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Rosie1 said:
I'm right in the middle. I'm probably more of an agnostic. I was raised in a Baptist church, as a young adult I was quite religious. I took my child to Sunday School, because I felt it would help insure a strong sense of personal morals. Later when she hit college age, members of our local church started sending me right wing e-mails. What? No, God doesn't have a political party.
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Yeah. I too see this part of modern religion as a huge turn-off. Tying the belief in god to a political party smells like a scam to me anyway.

That had an opposite affect on me. I no longer attend. And what's more. I've never felt that if there is a God, he/she may be anything like any major religions think. There is no proof that a supreme being ever interfered in anything man does. Did the seeds of life merely happen or were they planted on our planet?
Click to expand...
No one can answer that, if they are honest. And, even if the seeds were sprinkled on this planet by a million meteorites in some distant past, we'd still have the unknowable question to answer: where did that life come from?

I think it's reasonable to guess however. I am guessing it just emerged, at first in its simplest form and then evolved into the more complex systems we see today. But, of course, I have no way of knowing this.
 
mbig said:
Is Not believing, or outright Disbelieving in Astrology or Alchemy a "belief system."
Once you've been on this board a year (and you have), you must have seen this Same basic OP idea has been made scores of times. Many variants 'Is atheism a religion'/atheism is religion alone has had many.

Yet... here we are again.
Click to expand...

I guess it is a belief to point to astrology or alchemy and say that both of those are completely non existent. And, since there is hard evidence for the latter, both in a nuclear reactor and a star (Correct?), believing that alchemy is not possible is actually a false belief.
 
I would be somewhere between third and fourth degree, if it matters.
 
I don't think you'l find many atheists that will tell you they believe 100% that there can't be a god. That's too much akin to faith. And faith means believing in something that can't be proved. It would be as ridiculous as believing 100% in a 2000 year old book written by superstitious men who knew nothing of science. You could believe that a man walked on water or that he could use magic to multiply loaves of bread. Or that a man can turn water into blood. LITERALLY, people believe without any doubt (And without any proof) that these things happened because someone put that sh1t in a book. I read other things in books. I read Star Wars, but I didn't believe it really happened.

And atheists tend to be smarter and more educated than the others. So it's fine to put yourself in that group if you want. Let them praise Jesus and be pretentious in their righteousness. Who cares what rubes think about you?
 
VanceMack said:
It is a belief...just not a belief system. Pedro Ceranno believes in the great Jobu...but if he doesnt live his life in concordance with his belief system, Jobu still wont help him hit the curve ball.

In most if not all cases God is the author of our belief systems. Even those that reject a belief in a God (may try to but really) cannot deny that all of our belief systems when it comes to right/wrong, morality, charity, etc are influenced by society and society has been (in the vast majority of instances) defined by religion. 'Should' is typically defined by someone elses value system.

In my opinion, of course.
Click to expand...

It's all opinion, 90% of this forum is opinion, except when you debate one of our fearless leaders about trans issues, then it's whatever he says is etched in stone and anyone disagreeing is a moron--but I digress. So, no worries on that.

I guess I have to really think about this belief system thing. If I am honest, I would have to agree that my (what I consider) rather unique beliefs are probably modeled after one or more of the religions I have read about in the past. It only makes sense.
 
calamity said:
First, I'll admit I am more of a believer than a non-believer. I believe that there are no gods. I also believe that there is good reason to believe that there are no gods. But, of course, I am not sure of that. So...I guess I see myself as atheist-light.

Given the above, I kind of see a need for establishing a reference guide which delineates the the various degrees of Atheism, from true agnostic to the hard line disbeliever.

Rough template:

Agnostic: Has no idea if gods exist or not, doesn't really care either way.

Atheist 5th degree: Simply does not believe in gods, does not care if others do believe or say that gods exist

Atheist 4th Degree: Also does not believe in gods, says he does not care if others do believe or not, but tends to challenge anyone who does

Atheist 3rd Degree: Does not believe in gods, but argues furiously with those who say they do believe or that they exist

Atheist 2nd Degree: Believes gods do not exist, but is willing to accept that they just might

Atheist 1st Degree: Believes gods do not exist and mocks anyone who even hints at the notion that they might

Thoughts, additions, critiques, etc. ?
Click to expand...

It is always a belief. What else could it be?
 
VanceMack said:
A belief or disbelief in a God does not = a belief system. A belief system provides a foundation for right and wrong. It provides the foundation of morality. If you dont believe in a God you still should know what you believe about right or wrong, life, etc and should be able to clearly identify it and live within it. Similarly...just saying you believe there is a God does not mean you understand that belief or what belief holds re morality, forgiveness, healing, repentance, society, etc.
Click to expand...

Judging by those atheists I have know, they have a "belief system" that is rather well defined and almost always closely resembles that of others. The system is built around science with a disconnect at the beginning of time.
 
Brewdog said:
I don't think you'l find many atheists that will tell you they believe 100% that there can't be a god. That's too much akin to faith. And faith means believing in something that can't be proved. It would be as ridiculous as believing 100% in a 2000 year old book written by superstitious men who knew nothing of science. You could believe that a man walked on water or that he could use magic to multiply loaves of bread. Or that a man can turn water into blood. LITERALLY, people believe without any doubt (And without any proof) that these things happened because someone put that sh1t in a book. I read other things in books. I read Star Wars, but I didn't believe it really happened.

And atheists tend to be smarter and more educated than the others. So it's fine to put yourself in that group if you want. Let them praise Jesus and be pretentious in their righteousness. Who cares what rubes think about you?
Click to expand...

Sure. When I wrote in the OP that I have good reason to believe gods do not exist, I primarily refer to the fables above. It's pretty obvious, and it's quite well supported by reality, that those tales are complete horse****--or, as I like to say, "My primary go-to exhibit A."
 
joG said:
Judging by those atheists I have know, they have a "belief system" that is rather well defined and almost always closely resembles that of others. The system is built around science with a disconnect at the beginning of time.
Click to expand...

There is also a disconnect at the end of time, especially end of time for each individual. No one has yet come back to tell us what gives on the other side of that event horizon.
 
calamity said:
First, I'll admit I am more of a believer than a non-believer. I believe that there are no gods. I also believe that there is good reason to believe that there are no gods. But, of course, I am not sure of that. So...I guess I see myself as atheist-light.

Given the above, I kind of see a need for establishing a reference guide which delineates the the various degrees of Atheism, from true agnostic to the hard line disbeliever.

Rough template:

Agnostic: Has no idea if gods exist or not, doesn't really care either way.

Atheist 5th degree: Simply does not believe in gods, does not care if others do believe or say that gods exist

Atheist 4th Degree: Also does not believe in gods, says he does not care if others do believe or not, but tends to challenge anyone who does

Atheist 3rd Degree: Does not believe in gods, but argues furiously with those who say they do believe or that they exist

Atheist 2nd Degree: Believes gods do not exist, but is willing to accept that they just might

Atheist 1st Degree: Believes gods do not exist and mocks anyone who even hints at the notion that they might



Thoughts, additions, critiques, etc. ?
Click to expand...

It becomes a belief system when we get tax exempt status.
 
Cephus said:
I would be somewhere between third and fourth degree, if it matters.
Click to expand...

That's where I used to be before becoming a firm believer that there are no gods, while also admitting I really have no proof and can't say for sure. Now, I just argue against those who make claims for their gods that I know are bull****.
 
joG said:
Judging by those atheists I have know, they have a "belief system" that is rather well defined and almost always closely resembles that of others. The system is built around science with a disconnect at the beginning of time.
Click to expand...
See I would agree that that is their 'belief', but not their 'belief system'. Maybe its semantics. I COMPLETELY AGREE that a science based belief system can exist and know several individuals that express it well. But MOST people? No. In fact...if we are being honest...MOST people are agnostic...even the religious people. Most people dont know and really dont care enough to expound on their belief system, or kinda do know but really dont care enough to expound on their belief system.

I can give examples. Take 'love' for instance. Talk to a TRUE science based 'believer' and get his or her definition of what 'love' is. You can also watch the conniptions of those trying to reconcile their fervent 'belief' in Darwinism balanced with a desperate need to preserve the survival of the least fit.
 
calamity said:
First, I'll admit I am more of a believer than a non-believer. I believe that there are no gods. I also believe that there is good reason to believe that there are no gods. But, of course, I am not sure of that. So...I guess I see myself as atheist-light.

Given the above, I kind of see a need for establishing a reference guide which delineates the the various degrees of Atheism, from true agnostic to the hard line disbeliever.

Rough template:

Agnostic: Has no idea if gods exist or not, doesn't really care either way.

Atheist 5th degree: Simply does not believe in gods, does not care if others do believe or say that gods exist

Atheist 4th Degree: Also does not believe in gods, says he does not care if others do believe or not, but tends to challenge anyone who does

Atheist 3rd Degree: Does not believe in gods, but argues furiously with those who say they do believe or that they exist

Atheist 2nd Degree: Believes gods do not exist, but is willing to accept that they just might

Atheist 1st Degree: Believes gods do not exist and mocks anyone who even hints at the notion that they might

Thoughts, additions, critiques, etc. ?
Click to expand...

There's already words for all these things, and they're being misused here.

Agnostic: One who says that knowledge about a subject is not obtainable. This could be free will just as easily as deities. Some believers are ALSO agnostics. In fact, most Christians are agnostic, since they say their god is outside the perception of humanity. This has NOTHING to do with deities in particular, or whether you believe in them.

Atheist: Does not believe in deities. This is a passive absence of belief.

Anti-theist, or "positive atheist": This is someone who believes there are no gods.

A person who doesn't care if there's gods or not is sometimes called an apatheist.

A person who doesn't think the term "god" has been defined well enough to search for is called an ignostic.

A person who believes religiosity is a political issue is MORE than just an atheist/anti-theist/whatever. They are anti-religion (and they might not even be an atheist -- a lot of solitary spiritualists are also anti-religion even though they might believe in deities). Sometimes they are secular humanists, for example (although not all secular humanists are necessarily anti-religion).

You're talking about two different things, here. Philosophical positions, and political positions. The two aren't necessarily related. The anti-theist who doesn't care enough to take a vocal political stance on it is still more hard-lined philosophically speaking than the agnostic who does make it a political issue.
 
calamity said:
First, I'll admit I am more of a believer than a non-believer. I believe that there are no gods. I also believe that there is good reason to believe that there are no gods. But, of course, I am not sure of that. So...I guess I see myself as atheist-light.

Given the above, I kind of see a need for establishing a reference guide which delineates the the various degrees of Atheism, from true agnostic to the hard line disbeliever.

Rough template:

Agnostic: Has no idea if gods exist or not, doesn't really care either way.

Atheist 5th degree: Simply does not believe in gods, does not care if others do believe or say that gods exist

Atheist 4th Degree: Also does not believe in gods, says he does not care if others do believe or not, but tends to challenge anyone who does

Atheist 3rd Degree: Does not believe in gods, but argues furiously with those who say they do believe or that they exist

Atheist 2nd Degree: Believes gods do not exist, but is willing to accept that they just might

Atheist 1st Degree: Believes gods do not exist and mocks anyone who even hints at the notion that they might



Thoughts, additions, critiques, etc. ?
Click to expand...

I think you're actually on the wrong track here in that you are mixing two separate issues. You list these things as if they are levels of atheism, even calling them degrees and calling the very first one "agnostic". But you are actually not describing levels of atheism, but rather levels of arrogance and intolerance. The difference between what you describe as Atheist 5th degree and Atheist 1st degree has nothing to do with the person's beliefs about God or the strength of those beliefs; the difference is just that the 1st degree Atheist is an arrogant, intolerant prick and the 5th degree is a nice guy or gal (at least in this area).

I think the very idea of listing these as degrees of atheism is misguided. Someone can hold Atheist beliefs yet be a good person who has no problem accepting that others disagree with his view. The fact he's a good person doesn't mean he's less of an atheist. Your scale is actually measuring arrogance and intolerance, not atheist beliefs, so it just shouldn't be labeled "atheist nth degree".
 
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SmokeAndMirrors said:
There's already words for all these things, and they're being misused here.

Agnostic: One who says that knowledge about a subject is not obtainable. This could be free will just as easily as deities. Some believers are ALSO agnostics. In fact, most Christians are agnostic, since they say their god is outside the perception of humanity. This has NOTHING to do with deities in particular, or whether you believe in them.

Atheist: Does not believe in deities. This is a passive absence of belief.

Anti-theist, or "positive atheist": This is someone who believes there are no gods.

A person who doesn't care if there's gods or not is sometimes called an apatheist.

A person who doesn't think the term "god" has been defined well enough to search for is called an ignostic.

A person who believes religiosity is a political issue is MORE than just an atheist/anti-theist/whatever. They are anti-religion (and they might not even be an atheist -- a lot of solitary spiritualists are also anti-religion even though they might believe in deities). Sometimes they are secular humanists, for example (although not all secular humanists are necessarily anti-religion).

You're talking about two different things, here. Philosophical positions, and political positions. The two aren't necessarily related. The anti-theist who doesn't care enough to take a vocal political stance on it is still more hard-lined philosophically speaking than the agnostic who does make it a political issue.
Click to expand...

I guess where I was going with this thread was trying to delineate, better classify, the combination of belief and the vocalization of said beliefs for those who do not follow or worship gods than the list you wrote above. Figure it the non-believers version of climbing the ladder from once a year Catholics (usually Easter or Christmas) on up past the Evangelicals and on up to the top where the proselytizers sit.
 
VanceMack said:
See I would agree that that is their 'belief', but not their 'belief system'. Maybe its semantics. I COMPLETELY AGREE that a science based belief system can exist and know several individuals that express it well. But MOST people? No. In fact...if we are being honest...MOST people are agnostic...even the religious people. Most people dont know and really dont care enough to expound on their belief system, or kinda do know but really dont care enough to expound on their belief system.

I can give examples. Take 'love' for instance. Talk to a TRUE science based 'believer' and get his or her definition of what 'love' is. You can also watch the conniptions of those trying to reconcile their fervent 'belief' in Darwinism balanced with a desperate need to preserve the survival of the least fit.
Click to expand...

True. Most people do not know that much science. But most religious people don't know much about their religion either.
 
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