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'New Antisemitism' is Thought Control

I think that this particular topic should be here because I believe that it raises issues that go beyond the politics of Israel, Zionism, Europe, US, Left or Right.

From other threads here on DP I have very recently discovered the existence of what is being termed 'New Antisemitism' which purports to address the issue of alleged antisemitism expressed through criticism and/or denial of Zionism or the State of Israel that has arisen in the 20th and 21st centuries. As I have only recently become aware of this phenomenon, and I try to be concise, it is quite possible that I have straw manned the 'New Antisemitism' position here and, if I have, I am more than willing to be corrected on that. Just to add, that this position is not without it's critics however, criticism of the philosophy itself appears to attract cries of 'antisemitism' and there are several institutions that have adopted definitions of 'antisemitism' that strongly reflect this 'New Antisemitism' philosophy and, that bothers me.

To kick off the thread, I am particularly interested in one aspect of this, which is that this is a form of presuppositional thinking; It unjustifiably demands the acceptance of a concept regarding the nature of Statehood and then within that framework attempts to expose 'flaws', not about what other people say about that concept but, what they think when they say it. For me, that in itself is as insidious a tactic as any that might be used by a 'genuine' antisemite. I can't help but think that this has evolved from a serious concern about the well being of a group of people into a form of thought control that seeks to close down criticism by putting an unwarranted assumption of guilt on anyone questioning the presupposition as a starting point.

I have adopted the no hyphen version of 'antisemitism' in this post. If I should be using the hyphenated version then apologies for that.

I'm open to the idea that there is a "new anti-Semitism". However, from what I'm reading about it, it seems that this is simply a political label being given by pro-Israel groups to anyone who opposes: Israeli policies, Zionism, or the state of Israel or who sides with the Palestinian people. If that's all it is, and it sure seems to be that way, then it's about as relevant a label as other meaningless political epithets ("tea bagger", "latte liberal", "wingnut", "libtard", etc.)
 
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I'm open to the idea that there is a "new anti-Semitism". However, from what I'm reading about it, it seems that this is simply a political label being given by pro-Israel groups to anyone who opposes: Israeli policies, Zionism, or the state of Israel or who sides with the Palestinian people. If that's all it is, and it sure seems to be that way, then it's about as relevant a label as other meaningless political epithets ("tea bagger", "latte liberal", "wingnut", "libtard", etc.)

while I definetly agree it could be used that way, the concept itself isn't completely ridiculous, meaning just because someone is a leftist or a socialist of any kind doesn't mean they automatically can't be an antisemite
 
Two.

1. Israel did not come into existence as a state in the 1960s

2. It was never a British colony after its foundation

Now do YOU have any point? :roll:

sure read the above
 
The above is from me. If, however, you are referring to what you said earlier on, you are factually incorrect on all counts.

care to explain why? as I imagine your pro-israel correct?
 
care to explain why? as I imagine your pro-israel correct?
Because your claims that

a) Israel came into being in the 60s, and

b) It was a British colony until then

constitute fail.

What I am pro or con for or against has nothing to do with anything, sole exception being that I'm pro historical correctness.
 
Because your claims that

a) Israel came into being in the 60s, and

b) It was a British colony until then

constitute fail.

What I am pro or con for or against has nothing to do with anything, sole exception being that I'm pro historical correctness.

I mean anything about post #28 or the general topic of the thread
 
I mean anything about post #28 or the general topic of the thread
I already expressed my take on it here (if you care to read it) and I think it had something to do ( at least in part) with this thread coming into being.

As to the thread title here (containing in my book an assumption), there is nothing new about anti-semitism so I hold "New Antisemitism" to be something of a misnomer.

Made, as the OP already sketches, intentionally in order to stimulate debate and the OP's suspicion of it being a straw man well founded in my book.

No one is safe from indulging in it and whatever political leaning one has offers no protection in falling prey to it.

That's nothing new either.
 
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while I definetly agree it could be used that way, the concept itself isn't completely ridiculous, meaning just because someone is a leftist or a socialist of any kind doesn't mean they automatically can't be an antisemite

I don't understand your point. What does left/right politics and/or socialism have to do with this?
 
I mean anything about post #28 or the general topic of the thread

My Reply:

How Israel Was Created:

On Nov. 29, 1947, the partition resolution, 181, passed. While this resolution is frequently cited, it was of limited (if any) legal impact. General Assembly resolutions, unlike Security Council resolutions, are not binding on member states. For this reason, the resolution requested that “[t]he Security Council take the necessary measures as provided for in the plan for its implementation,” which the Security Council never did.
Legally, the General Assembly Resolution was a “recommendation” and did not create any states.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine

The passing of the partition resolution in November 1947 trigged the violence that State Department and Pentagon analysts had predicted and for which Zionists had been preparing. There were at least 33 massacres of Palestinian villages, half of them before a single Arab army joined the conflict. Zionist forces were better equipped and had more men under arms than their opponents and by the end of Israel’s “War of Independence” over 750,000 Palestinian men, women, and children were ruthlessly expelled. Zionists had succeeded in the first half of their goal: Israel, the self-described Jewish State, had come into existence.

...."the Partition Plan was vitiated, became invalid, because Truman was not prepared to use force to impose it. When he decided against the use of force he ordered his diplomats to return to the UN and continue discussions about how to solve the Palestine problem. It was while those discussions were continuing in the General Assembly that Israel unilaterally declared itself to be in existence, in defiance of the will of the organized international community as it then was.

Israel, which claims to be the “only democracy in the Middle East,” decided not to declare official borders or to write a constitution, a situation which continues to this day. In 1967 it took still more Palestinian and Syrian land, which is now illegally occupied territory, since the annexation of land through military conquest is outlawed by modern international law.

Also, there is a huge difference between the term "State Of Israel" and "The Jewish State Of Israel".

It's Not Just The Palestinians Who Won't Recognize A "Jewish State"
May 14, 1948. The context is that the Zionist government has proclaimed a "Jewish state" in Palestine, and is seeking U.S. recognition of that state. The document is President Harry S. Truman's response to that request.
The interesting thing is that the original text of the document is edited with hand-written corrections, to produce the wording finally approved by Truman. And the purpose of the editing is specifically to remove the suggestion that the U.S. recognizes a "Jewish state", and to clarify that it recognizes instead the "state of Israel".
How about that: the United States was asked in 1948 to recognize the "Jewish state", but offered recognition instead to the "state of Israel". Just as the PLO does today.
So why exactly is it uncontroversial when we do it, but an obstacle to peace when they do it?
PH2008050602297.jpg



Calm
 
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My Reply:

How Israel Was Created:

On Nov. 29, 1947, the partition resolution, 181, passed. While this resolution is frequently cited, it was of limited (if any) legal impact. General Assembly resolutions, unlike Security Council resolutions, are not binding on member states. For this reason, the resolution requested that “[t]he Security Council take the necessary measures as provided for in the plan for its implementation,” which the Security Council never did.
Legally, the General Assembly Resolution was a “recommendation” and did not create any states.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine

The passing of the partition resolution in November 1947 trigged the violence that State Department and Pentagon analysts had predicted and for which Zionists had been preparing. There were at least 33 massacres of Palestinian villages, half of them before a single Arab army joined the conflict. Zionist forces were better equipped and had more men under arms than their opponents and by the end of Israel’s “War of Independence” over 750,000 Palestinian men, women, and children were ruthlessly expelled. Zionists had succeeded in the first half of their goal: Israel, the self-described Jewish State, had come into existence.

...."the Partition Plan was vitiated, became invalid, because Truman was not prepared to use force to impose it. When he decided against the use of force he ordered his diplomats to return to the UN and continue discussions about how to solve the Palestine problem. It was while those discussions were continuing in the General Assembly that Israel unilaterally declared itself to be in existence, in defiance of the will of the organized international community as it then was.

Israel, which claims to be the “only democracy in the Middle East,” decided not to declare official borders or to write a constitution, a situation which continues to this day. In 1967 it took still more Palestinian and Syrian land, which is now illegally occupied territory, since the annexation of land through military conquest is outlawed by modern international law.

Also, there is a huge difference between the term "State Of Israel" and "The Jewish State Of Israel".

It's Not Just The Palestinians Who Won't Recognize A "Jewish State"
May 14, 1948. The context is that the Zionist government has proclaimed a "Jewish state" in Palestine, and is seeking U.S. recognition of that state. The document is President Harry S. Truman's response to that request.
The interesting thing is that the original text of the document is edited with hand-written corrections, to produce the wording finally approved by Truman. And the purpose of the editing is specifically to remove the suggestion that the U.S. recognizes a "Jewish state", and to clarify that it recognizes instead the "state of Israel".
How about that: the United States was asked in 1948 to recognize the "Jewish state", but offered recognition instead to the "state of Israel". Just as the PLO does today.
So why exactly is it uncontroversial when we do it, but an obstacle to peace when they do it?
PH2008050602297.jpg



Calm
Your reply is worthless alone on your dishonestly giving the impression that you're citing from a wiki page that doesn't say anything even resembling what you then follow the supplied link with.

Far more importantly though, "contributions" like the above belong in the ME-I/P forum. Even where you would possibly not get away with them there, that's no reason to clutter up other people's threads elsewhere in the disingenuous attempt to circumnavigate rules.

Because your reply addresses in no way the topic of this thread.
 
I already expressed my take on it here (if you care to read it) and I think it had something to do ( at least in part) with this thread coming into being.

As to the thread title here (containing in my book an assumption), there is nothing new about anti-semitism so I hold "New Antisemitism" to be something of a misnomer.

Made, as the OP already sketches, intentionally in order to stimulate debate and the OP's suspicion of it being a straw man well founded in my book.

No one is safe from indulging in it and whatever political leaning one has offers no protection in falling prey to it.

That's nothing new either.

well thats quite a long thread and i didnt read it yet, it seems like a bunch of tabloid politics really. To be perfectly honest the jews at whopping 16 million total population get way too much attention. And as you can see someone is already challenging the founding of israel back in the 1940's im pretty sure somebody is going to counter that with the fact israel has existed for thousands of years

thats why I say the day after the six day war is when they were really founded, and considering were talking about a country that some dont recognize the existence of, and much more dispute the actual borders of, the day it was truly founded is really more based on an opinion, of what "counts" a country as being founded. Quite a meaningless and fruitless debate, about a section of the world that quite honestly should just become a nature preserve of some kind
 
I don't understand your point. What does left/right politics and/or socialism have to do with this?

"new antisemitism" basically means "left wing antisemitism" as in anarchist philosophy, or the soviet union, or even simply Palestinian civil rights groups, as oppose to right wing antisemitism like hitler, or alqueda or the kings of some European country
 
well thats quite a long thread and i didnt read it yet, it seems like a bunch of tabloid politics really. To be perfectly honest the jews at whopping 16 million total population get way too much attention. And as you can see someone is already challenging the founding of israel back in the 1940's im pretty sure somebody is going to counter that with the fact israel has existed for thousands of years

thats why I say the day after the six day war is when they were really founded, and considering were talking about a country that some dont recognize the existence of, and much more dispute the actual borders of, the day it was truly founded is really more based on an opinion, of what "counts" a country as being founded. Quite a meaningless and fruitless debate, about a section of the world that quite honestly should just become a nature preserve of some kind
I have no idea here either of what this has to do with the thread topic.

We discussed this (Israel coming into being), we have different takes on it, we might as well leave it there.
 
Your reply is worthless alone on your dishonestly giving the impression that you're citing from a wiki page that doesn't say anything even resembling what you then follow the supplied link with.

Far more importantly though, "contributions" like the above belong in the ME-I/P forum. Even where you would possibly not get away with them there, that's no reason to clutter up other people's threads elsewhere in the disingenuous attempt to circumnavigate rules.

Because your reply addresses in no way the topic of this thread.

Should you be playing moderator? Presumptuous of you.
 
Because your reply addresses in no way the topic of this thread.

I think it was on topic because I was responding to the questions listed below.

1. Israel did not come into existence as a state in the 1960s

2. It was never a British colony after its foundation

And again, my contribution or comment was totally factual.

Please make some attempt to deal with the topic rather than attack or discredit the writer. It is always the same with the Pro-Israel Folks .... They contribute very little to any conversation and simply satisfy their need to debate with calling everyone a liar of sorts. No specifics .... just ridicule.

If a Pro-Israel person can't find fault with the facts, they resort to ridicule as to how the facts were presented.

And since it was William Rea who began this thread, should it not be that person who might claim "off topic" rather than you?

Calm
 
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aha ok so it was this post that caused wiliam rea to make this thread

I'm really at a loss as to what is so effing difficult to understand about anti-Zionism and anti-semitism being not two but just one side of the same coin.

One can post it in as many threads as one likes and as often as one likes, it just won't sink in, will it?:roll:

But (sigh):

Zionism is the movement by Jews whose root drive is the creation and subsequent keeping of a homeland for the Jews of the world IN ISRAEL.

Holy city being there, the land being holy, traditions being rooted there etc. THERE, NOT IN NEVADA AND NOT IN MADAGASCAR OR WHEREVER.

Anti-Zionism consists of combating those ambitions.

Seeing that it's bit late to combat the state's creation, it can only mean combating the keeping (maintenance) of that state. Since that combat is of necessity directed against the State of Israel, it is (obviously, ferchrissake) against the Jews. Seeing how Israel provides a homeland for ALL Jews (whether they care to make use of it or not), anti-Zionism is against Jews in general.

Arguing the terminology till one is blue in the face changes nothing in this actually rather simple-to-understand equation.

All it achieves is demonstration of the utter ignorance of terminology used, when attempts are made to fling terms around with abandon but without comprehension, once outside this parameter that a 5 year old should be able to grasp.

The part bolded above seems to be the controversial part of it. Your saying that any opposition to the state of Israel is the equivalent of antisemitism. Care to clarify, before I rip that argument apart?
 
On Anti-Palestinianism and Anti-Semitism
By Jerry Haber
April 14, 2016
The Magnes Zionist: On Anti-Palestinianism and Anti-Semitism

By “anti-Palestinianism” I understand prejudice against Palestinian Arabs based on perceived negative qualities of Palestinian cultural or natural identity. Views such as “Palestinian Arab culture is a culture of death and martyrdom,” “Palestinian Arabs hate Jews because of incitement,” “Palestinian Arab labor is inferior” are examples of this prejudice. Attempts to justify these prejudices are inevitably based on selective data, generalization, and bias.

By “anti-Semitism,” I understand prejudice against Jews based on perceived negative qualities of Jewish cultural, natural, or religious identity. Opinions such as, “Jews love only money,” “There is a worldwide Jewish conspiracy against gentiles,” “Jews are loud, noisy, and uncouth,” etc. are examples of this prejudice. Attempts to justify these prejudices are also inevitably based on selective data, generalization, and bias.
....

“Anti-Palestinianism” and “anti-Semitism” should be examined in light of the broader phenomenon of group prejudice. Regrettably, they often are not. Anti-Semitism is considered a serious moral failing in Western society today, whereas anti-Palestinianism is not even recognized as a phenomenon to be studied. The reason for this has a lot to do with the prominence accorded to anti-Semitism in Western consciousness for well-known historical reasons. The founder of modern Zionism, Theodor Herzl, saw a nation-state of the Jews to be the solution to anti-Semitism. The Holocaust reinforced that view for many.

The so-called “New Anti-Semitism” was born of the increasing identification, shared by some Zionists and anti-Semites, of Israelism and Judaism. Although Zionism as a movement of national revival had many different aspects (some Zionists actively opposed the creation of a Jewish ethnic-exclusivist state), the particular form that Zionism took in the newly created laws and institutions of the state of Israel became identified with Zionism tout court.
....

Today, if one rejects the claims of Jews to a state of their own in Palestine, i.e., if one rejects statist Zionism, one is considered by these people to be at best an unwitting or inadvertent anti-Semite. The same is true if one wishes to replace the Zionist state with a state that is predominantly a civic one – Muslim, Christian, and Jewish. The same is true if one thinks that founding the State of Israel in the way it was founded was bad for Jews and for Arabs.
....

The speaker may avoid identifying anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism, but the implied guilt by association, though a lesser form of bigotry, is bigotry, nonetheless. And when one singles out anti-Semitism for moral opprobrium without even acknowledging anti-Palestinianism, one loses the moral high ground and simply parrots partisan polemic.

All bigotry should be condemned, whether the target group is powerful or weak. But there should be special concern for the consequences of bigotry aimed at the weak, since those consequences will be more dire. Anti-Semitism can never be justified, and it should be called out when found. And the pro-Palestinian movement has done that.

But insufficient sensitivity to anti-Palestinianism is, under present circumstances, a greater sin for those who care about the real consequences of bias and bigotry.
....

Comment:

The problem with the Western press is that anti-Palestinianist bias falls within Daniel Hallin’s media “Sphere of Deviance” and therefore unworthy of even the smallest bit of coverage. This is due entirely to the success of hasbara and the eggshells upon which the press must walk in matters of regarding Israel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallin's_spheres

Contrasting the Jewish holocaust to the “African holocaust.”
Millions more Africans were killed in the African holocaust and their oppression continues today on a global scale in a way it doesn’t for Jews.
The mere mention of any other holocaust is a flagrant violation of the law against questioning the primacy of Jewish suffering.

"....condemning crimes committed by Israel’s leadership is, in effect, an accusation against all Israelis, and that, since most Israelis are Jews, this means an implicit attack on Jews everywhere....."
"....it would mean that any statement critical of, say, Bashar al-Assad would make the speaker an Islamophobe....."
"....a critic of Israel’s illegal occupation is simply “someone who only hates Jews living in Israel...."
--Michael Lesher, May 06, 2016--
 
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On Anti-Palestinianism and Anti-Semitism
By Jerry Haber
April 14, 2016
The Magnes Zionist: On Anti-Palestinianism and Anti-Semitism

By “anti-Palestinianism” I understand prejudice against Palestinian Arabs based on perceived negative qualities of Palestinian cultural or natural identity. Views such as “Palestinian Arab culture is a culture of death and martyrdom,” “Palestinian Arabs hate Jews because of incitement,” “Palestinian Arab labor is inferior” are examples of this prejudice. Attempts to justify these prejudices are inevitably based on selective data, generalization, and bias.

By “anti-Semitism,” I understand prejudice against Jews based on perceived negative qualities of Jewish cultural, natural, or religious identity. Opinions such as, “Jews love only money,” “There is a worldwide Jewish conspiracy against gentiles,” “Jews are loud, noisy, and uncouth,” etc. are examples of this prejudice. Attempts to justify these prejudices are also inevitably based on selective data, generalization, and bias.
....

“Anti-Palestinianism” and “anti-Semitism” should be examined in light of the broader phenomenon of group prejudice. Regrettably, they often are not. Anti-Semitism is considered a serious moral failing in Western society today, whereas anti-Palestinianism is not even recognized as a phenomenon to be studied. The reason for this has a lot to do with the prominence accorded to anti-Semitism in Western consciousness for well-known historical reasons. The founder of modern Zionism, Theodor Herzl, saw a nation-state of the Jews to be the solution to anti-Semitism. The Holocaust reinforced that view for many.

The so-called “New Anti-Semitism” was born of the increasing identification, shared by some Zionists and anti-Semites, of Israelism and Judaism. Although Zionism as a movement of national revival had many different aspects (some Zionists actively opposed the creation of a Jewish ethnic-exclusivist state), the particular form that Zionism took in the newly created laws and institutions of the state of Israel became identified with Zionism tout court.
....

Today, if one rejects the claims of Jews to a state of their own in Palestine, i.e., if one rejects statist Zionism, one is considered by these people to be at best an unwitting or inadvertent anti-Semite. The same is true if one wishes to replace the Zionist state with a state that is predominantly a civic one – Muslim, Christian, and Jewish. The same is true if one thinks that founding the State of Israel in the way it was founded was bad for Jews and for Arabs.
....

The speaker may avoid identifying anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism, but the implied guilt by association, though a lesser form of bigotry, is bigotry, nonetheless. And when one singles out anti-Semitism for moral opprobrium without even acknowledging anti-Palestinianism, one loses the moral high ground and simply parrots partisan polemic.

All bigotry should be condemned, whether the target group is powerful or weak. But there should be special concern for the consequences of bigotry aimed at the weak, since those consequences will be more dire. Anti-Semitism can never be justified, and it should be called out when found. And the pro-Palestinian movement has done that.

But insufficient sensitivity to anti-Palestinianism is, under present circumstances, a greater sin for those who care about the real consequences of bias and bigotry.
....

Comment:

The problem with the Western press is that anti-Palestinianist bias falls within Daniel Hallin’s media “Sphere of Deviance” and therefore unworthy of even the smallest bit of coverage. This is due entirely to the success of hasbara and the eggshells upon which the press must walk in matters of regarding Israel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallin's_spheres

Contrasting the Jewish holocaust to the “African holocaust.”
Millions more Africans were killed in the African holocaust and their oppression continues today on a global scale in a way it doesn’t for Jews.
The mere mention of any other holocaust is a flagrant violation of the law against questioning the primacy of Jewish suffering.

"....condemning crimes committed by Israel’s leadership is, in effect, an accusation against all Israelis, and that, since most Israelis are Jews, this means an implicit attack on Jews everywhere....."
"....it would mean that any statement critical of, say, Bashar al-Assad would make the speaker an Islamophobe....."
"....a critic of Israel’s illegal occupation is simply “someone who only hates Jews living in Israel...."
--Michael Lesher, May 06, 2016--

Moderator's Warning:
This thread is on anti-semitism, NOT condemnation of Israel or anti-Palestinianism. Cease derailing this thread.
 
To: Captain Courtesy...

I am not quibbling with your actions of "warning" me, because you run the show and it is your right to do so.

But I need to ask ....

How is it possible to discuss Anti-Semitism in the "present time of world events" without discussing Palestinian issues or views concerning Israel?

Are we only allowed to discuss Anti-Semitism in an historical sense up until 1945 and the end of WWII? The thread was about the "New" Anti-Semitism or after WWII.

Can you or others viewing this thread sort of explain or give me examples of how this can be done?

I ask this question because I am attempting to remain on topic and within the rules.

Calm
 
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New antisemitism
From Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism

"New antisemitism is the concept that a new form of antisemitism has developed in the late 20th and early 21st centuries....."

"....Today's hostility to Jews as Jews is based on the Arab–Israeli conflict, not on ancient European fantasies...."

"....it is "not rooted in the ideology of 'the Jew'," and is therefore a different phenomenon from antisemitism....."

Calm
 
aha ok so it was this post that caused wiliam rea to make this thread



The part bolded above seems to be the controversial part of it. Your saying that any opposition to the state of Israel is the equivalent of antisemitism. Care to clarify, before I rip that argument apart?
You should have bolded the whole paragraph. Then maybe you would have actually understood what I said.

As a hint: opposition is one thing, combating the keeping of the existing state (as in dissolving it or wishing to) quite another.
 
I think it was on topic because I was responding to the questions listed below.

1. Israel did not come into existence as a state in the 1960s

2. It was never a British colony after its foundation

And again, my contribution or comment was totally factual.

Please make some attempt to deal with the topic rather than attack or discredit the writer. It is always the same with the Pro-Israel Folks .... They contribute very little to any conversation and simply satisfy their need to debate with calling everyone a liar of sorts. No specifics .... just ridicule.

If a Pro-Israel person can't find fault with the facts, they resort to ridicule as to how the facts were presented.

And since it was William Rea who began this thread, should it not be that person who might claim "off topic" rather than you?

Calm
Quote my post in total or don't quote it at all.

This is what it said (bolded for emphasis)

Your reply is worthless alone on your dishonestly giving the impression that you're citing from a wiki page that doesn't say anything even resembling what you then follow the supplied link with.

Far more importantly though, "contributions" like the above belong in the ME-I/P forum. Even where you would possibly not get away with them there, that's no reason to clutter up other people's threads elsewhere in the disingenuous attempt to circumnavigate rules.

[/snip]
1. I didn't call you a liar, I called your behavior dishonest
2. I specified why
3. Take your own advice on dealing with the topic.
4. When a post is OT, NObody is precluded from pointing that out.
5. Indeed there was disagreement on two historical issues and I corrected two fallacies. That may be digressing somewhat but it serves no thread if misunderstanding of history remains unaddressed. But the matter is solved, one way or the other.
6. Your mile long rant of post #37 served no purpose to this thread. Not in solving the misunderstanding of history, not in addressing the topic.

Anything else you found worthy of mentioning constitutes the very ad-hominem you accuse others of. To me not worthy of either consideration or any further address.
 
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