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On the reliablity of Jospehus in regards to the passages about Jesus [W:71]

Re: On the reliablity of Jospehus in regards to the passages about Jesus

Tanngrisnir said:
LOL! Why demand something from someone else that you yourself have never actually done?
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I've already done it in other threads. Thanks for playing.
 
Re: On the reliablity of Jospehus in regards to the passages about Jesus

Realitywins said:
All the evidence you demand is in the two articles I posted.
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I've sorted through two of those pathetic articles and have yet to see a decent argument, with evidence, against the 'Virgin Birth' prophecy as being a fake. Where's the beef, RW? Cut and paste that bad boy for me so I can gut it.
 
Re: On the reliablity of Jospehus in regards to the passages about Jesus

Logicman said:
Your source - Michael Paulkovich - is dishonest, historically-challenged, and woefully ignorant in his claims.

Here's a sampling of his sources that he references that haven't 'heard' of Jesus:

"So that brings us to Paulkovich’s list: 126 ancient writers, 0 references to Jesus. The list has a few issues. Although everyone on it is indeed ancient, some are a little too ancient—as in, lived-a-hundred-years-before-Jesus too ancient (Asclepiades of Prusa, for example). A great many of the writers are philosophers, some quite famous (Epictetus). Philosophers aren’t really known, now or then, for their interest in current events. Some writers are mathematicians, rhetoricians, satirists, poets, or epigrammatists (Martial). Unless we’re looking for an ancient limerick about Jesus, these are probably the wrong authors to be reading.

Fully fourteen of the 126 are doctors, including a dermatologist, an ophthalmologist, and a gynecologist (Soranus). We can first point out that Jesus was supposed to have a gift for healing, so he probably didn’t take his annual checkup seriously. Also, even if Jesus did visit a doctor or fourteen, and even if they kept records of the savior’s health, we could never have access to those records because, you know, HIPAA. There are some authentic historians on the list, though we can probably assume that someone writing a biography of Alexander the Great (Curtius Rufus) might not find an appropriate place to slot Jesus into that story. The vast majority of the authors listed, however, have none of their writings preserved for us, or mere fragments at most. It’s hard to say that a writer didn’t mention Jesus when all we have of that writer are a few lines quoted in someone else’s work."

More refutations against Paulkovich in the article below.

So-Called ?Biblical Scholar? Says Jesus A Made-Up Myth - The Daily Beast

In the case of this author, reality doesn't win - bs walks. LOL
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Oh my. That...that is without doubt the most pathetic xian apologetic I believe I have ever seen and I have seen some dillies. All that xian website does is shoot messengers, it does not address facts...because it cannot. There are no facts to support your god or your pal Yeshua known as Josh. You have been Joshed your entire life. Face it, if your god or your jesus had even been proven true/real...forums like this would not exist. You apparently believe in a most foul, evil, violent and hateful imaginary being. While you are on your knees pleading for your god to grant you a raise, promotion, success in business or even to heal your ailing child...around the world millions of children are dying every day in the most painful ways. Starvation being the least of them. Many are raped by clergy, raped and murdered by people claiming to be doing the "lords" work (pick the "lord"), forced to work in appalling conditions by members of religious organizations right in your own country and mine! Further that is just today According to your bible, this was all AOK with your imaginary god at the time it was compiled from earlier pagan beliefs! When one associates, supports, prays with people who believe in your bible, one risks being labelled a they are.
 
Re: On the reliablity of Jospehus in regards to the passages about Jesus

Realitywins said:
Oh my. That...that is without doubt the most pathetic xian apologetic I believe I have ever seen and I have seen some dillies. All that xian website does is shoot messengers, it does not address facts...because it cannot. There are no facts to support your god or your pal Yeshua known as Josh. You have been Joshed your entire life. Face it, if your god or your jesus had even been proven true/real...forums like this would not exist. You apparently believe in a most foul, evil, violent and hateful imaginary being. While you are on your knees pleading for your god to grant you a raise, promotion, success in business or even to heal your ailing child...around the world millions of children are dying every day in the most painful ways. Starvation being the least of them. Many are raped by clergy, raped and murdered by people claiming to be doing the "lords" work (pick the "lord"), forced to work in appalling conditions by members of religious organizations right in your own country and mine! Further that is just today According to your bible, this was all AOK with your imaginary god at the time it was compiled from earlier pagan beliefs! When one associates, supports, prays with people who believe in your bible, one risks being labelled a they are.
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That's all half-backed conjecture. There's numerous reasons for all that, including the devil causing mayhem.

And where's this vaunted argument from your articles about the virgin birth prophecy being a fake? Again, where's the beef?
 
Re: On the reliablity of Jospehus in regards to the passages about Jesus

Logicman said:
You don't know squat about that.
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But, of course, I do. I see your posts and none of them back up your claim about yourself.

That's simpe reality. Sorry.
 
Re: On the reliablity of Jospehus in regards to the passages about Jesus

Tanngrisnir said:
But, of course, I do. I see your posts and none of them back up your claim about yourself.

That's simpe reality. Sorry.
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Off topic. The subject is Josephus and Jesus.
 
Re: On the reliablity of Jospehus in regards to the passages about Jesus

Logicman said:
That's all half-backed conjecture. There's numerous reasons for all that, including the devil causing mayhem.

And where's this vaunted argument from your articles about the virgin birth prophecy being a fake? Again, where's the beef?
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The proper phrase is : "Half baked", kinda like your responses...only cooked a bit more. The beef is where it has always been...between Wendy's buns. You apparently fail to comprehend the fact (0r any fact if one relies upon your posts) that as soon as one spends all their time focusing upon the author (messenger) and ignoring the factual points, other facts and the historical record, one loses credibility. Of course, when one argues the veracity of the bible or xian beliefs, one begins the argument at a credibility deficit in the first place.
 
Re: On the reliablity of Jospehus in regards to the passages about Jesus

Realitywins said:
The proper phrase is : "Half baked", kinda like your responses...only cooked a bit more. The beef is where it has always been...between Wendy's buns. You apparently fail to comprehend the fact (0r any fact if one relies upon your posts) that as soon as one spends all their time focusing upon the author (messenger) and ignoring the factual points, other facts and the historical record, one loses credibility. Of course, when one argues the veracity of the bible or xian beliefs, one begins the argument at a credibility deficit in the first place.
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Nuts.

You claimed the argument against the virgin birth prophecy is in your articles. So where is it? I looked for it and didn't see it. You evidently made a false statement and now can't back it up. So admit you were mistaken. Or else let's see the information.
 
Re: On the reliablity of Jospehus in regards to the passages about Jesus

Logicman said:
I've already done it in other threads. Thanks for playing.
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It is always 'other threads'... Yet.. that is your standard response. "It's another thread".. Yet a lot of times , you post things that are ether appeals to authority, unscholarly, or don't say what you claim they say.
 
Re: On the reliablity of Jospehus in regards to the passages about Jesus

RAMOSS said:
Antiquities 18.3.3. "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day."
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Even if the phrase "He was the Christ," was inserted......it's still a fact that Josephus was writing about a man named Jesus. Here, let's remove that allegedly inserted phrase:

"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day."


There. That's how it will read without that "problem" phrase.

It's still unmistakeably, about Jesus Christ.
 
Re: On the reliablity of Jospehus in regards to the passages about Jesus

RAMOSS said:
It is always 'other threads'... Yet.. that is your standard response. "It's another thread".. Yet a lot of times , you post things that are ether appeals to authority, unscholarly, or don't say what you claim they say.
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Tell it to someone who buys your inane postings.
 
Re: On the reliablity of Jospehus in regards to the passages about Jesus

RAMOSS said:
First of all , almost everyone agrees it is impossible that this is not unaltered. Not even John Meier, who came up with a 'solution' will argue that. IT's just too Christian.
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Too Christian? :lol:

If Josephus was getting any information about Jesus, what people would understandably be asked, or provide the information? Of course most likely he'll be talking to Christians!

If Josephus was quoting what was being circulated about Jesus....of course he'll be saying that He is the Christ!




One big problem is that the term 'He was the Christ' was used. The term 'CHrist' comes from "Moishe' in the Hebrew. Jospehus would not use that term for several reasons. First of all, the way he escaped execution when he was captured was by telling Vespisian that HE was going to be the prophized King of the Jews. The audience his writing was intended for was the Romans, and Christ literally means 'annointed' or 'wetter' to be literal. That would not have meaning for his target audience, since they would not understand Jewish custom of annointing high priests and kings with oil. There is also the little business that Jospehus would not use that because it would be going against the narrative he told Vespisian to save his life. That means, at the very least, the passage would have to be modified.
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That's all conjectures. You're making all those assumptions.



First of all, there is no proof that such insertions into the text were ever made. They may be authentic. The "Testimonium" is found in every copy of Josephus in existence.

Second, Josephus mentions many other biblically-relevant occurrences that are not in dispute (see outline below). This adds validity to the claim that Josephus knew about Jesus and wrote about Him, since he also wrote about other New Testament things. Nevertheless, though there may be some Christian insertions into the text, we can still reconstruct what may have been the original writing.

Two researchers (Edwin Yamauchi and John P. Meier)1 have constructed a copy of the "Testimonium" with the probable insertions in brackets and underlined. The following paragraph is Yamauchi's:

“About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man [if indeed one ought to call him a man.] For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. [He was the Christ.] When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amongst us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. [On the third day he appeared to them restored to life, for the prophets of God had prophesied these and countless other marvelous things about him.] And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.”

Though this may be a correct assessment of the "Testimonium," we should note that an Arabic version (10th Century) of the "Testimonium" (translated into English) is in basic agreement with the existing Josephus account:

"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."2

The Arabic version was copied from a Greek version. What is not known is which one. But if you notice the comparison below, if the Arabic version was a direct translation of the Greek, then why the differences? Nevertheless, what is important in the Arabic Version is that the resurrection of Christ is maintained.
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https://carm.org/regarding-quotes-historian-josephus-about-jesus
 
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Re: On the reliablity of Jospehus in regards to the passages about Jesus

Manc Skipper said:
Straight back atcha.
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Well why don't you hop out here and defend the OP's claim that the virgin birth prophecy was a fake? Huh? Because obviously realitywins can't, or won't, though I've called him on it several times.
 
Re: On the reliablity of Jospehus in regards to the passages about Jesus

Logicman said:
Well why don't you hop out here and defend the OP's claim that the virgin birth prophecy was a fake? Huh? Because obviously realitywins can't, or won't, though I've called him on it several times.
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I've had enough of your nonsense. The onus of proof is yours. Virgin birth is impossible in humans since we were amoebas.
 
Re: On the reliablity of Jospehus in regards to the passages about Jesus

Manc Skipper said:
I've had enough of your nonsense. The onus of proof is yours. Virgin birth is impossible in humans since we were amoebas.
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Horse manure. And it figures you haven't a decent theological argument to make on that. Typical.
 
Re: On the reliablity of Jospehus in regards to the passages about Jesus

Logicman said:
Horse manure. And it figures you haven't a decent theological argument to make on that. Typical.
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You mean a fantasy argument. Virgin birth in humans is impossible.
 
Re: On the reliablity of Jospehus in regards to the passages about Jesus

There was an old bugger called God,
who got a young virgin in pod.
This disgraceful behaviour
begot Christ our Saviour,
who was nailed to a cross, poor old sod.
 
Re: On the reliablity of Jospehus in regards to the passages about Jesus

Moderator's Warning:
Folks, there's a topic. I suggest you stick to it. Posts that don't bother discussing it and just serve to troll. Also, the baiting going on by the overtop insulting and belittling of the quality of peoples posts need to stop from this point forward
 
Re: On the reliablity of Jospehus in regards to the passages about Jesus

Logicman said:
I've sorted through two of those pathetic articles and have yet to see a decent argument, with evidence, against the 'Virgin Birth' prophecy as being a fake. Where's the beef, RW? Cut and paste that bad boy for me so I can gut it.
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Virgin birth in humans has long since been proven impossible by science. In fantasy, like religious beliefs, anything is possible. But even if your god were real, one would have to question the morality (at the least) of a being which would violate a virgin about to become another man's wife. Then, for that child to essentially be himself who promptly commits suicide by PO'ing the local authorities so he can get himself resurrected and blame it all on humans is simply downright ridiculous.
 
Re: On the reliablity of Jospehus in regards to the passages about Jesus

Realitywins said:
Virgin birth in humans has long since been proven impossible by science. In fantasy, like religious beliefs, anything is possible. But even if your god were real, one would have to question the morality (at the least) of a being which would violate a virgin about to become another man's wife. Then, for that child to essentially be himself who promptly commits suicide by PO'ing the local authorities so he can get himself resurrected and blame it all on humans is simply downright ridiculous.
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Nope. Science has never either proven or disproven the existence of God and the supernatural.

In fact, contemporary miracles have now been documented. You might want to read that to broaden your perspectives on miracles.

https://www.amazon.com/Miracles-Cre...qid=1472488049&sr=8-1&keywords=craig+miracles
 
Re: On the reliablity of Jospehus in regards to the passages about Jesus

Logicman said:
Nope. Science has never either proven or disproven the existence of God and the supernatural.

In fact, contemporary miracles have now been documented. You might want to read that to broaden your perspectives on miracles.

https://www.amazon.com/Miracles-Cre...qid=1472488049&sr=8-1&keywords=craig+miracles
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:lamo First of all. You asked about virgin birth not whether or not science has bothered itself about the existence of imaginary beings (ps: it hasn't). So heading off on a tangent like that, is simply the usual tactic of someone who has nothing concrete to say. If miracles actually happened and prayer actually worked, there would be clergy handling all our health problems. It may have escaped your notice but there are no clergy praying in operating theatres. Miracles are the product of minds clouded by religion and over excited bymass hysteria.
 
Re: On the reliablity of Jospehus in regards to the passages about Jesus

Logicman said:
That's all half-backed conjecture. There's numerous reasons for all that, including the devil causing mayhem.

And where's this vaunted argument from your articles about the virgin birth prophecy being a fake? Again, where's the beef?
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LOL! Since it escaped your rather estimable powers of observation, all prophecy is half baked conjecture (and that's being charitable) and boogey-men like the devil do not make for cogent arguments.
 
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