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The Netherlands no longer a Christian nation [W:126]

truthatallcost said:
I concede that it might feel like an improvement for now. That however will fade as fortunes change and you find yourself in a Netherlands that you don't recognize.

Think about it; the history of the world is rife with conquest, invasion and war. These things develop from human nature. Do you think those realities have been defeated because you're living in a time of relative peace? To believe that would be like a farmer not sowing his field because he's not hungry at the moment.

You will not be able to influence Muslims into becoming secularized like you. And they can spot your weakness, believe that. They're just waiting until the conditions are perfect before striking.

I'm not sure how old you are, but if you're young, you'll see a major European country fall to Islam in your lifetime, as I will. I have no doubt of that. Could be Belgium, France, the Netherlands, who knows. But it will happen.

And BTW, there are far worse things in life than being "islamophobic", such as being completely wrong about one of the most important issues of our time.
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No, I will not find myself in a country that I do not recognize, we make our own future and we will do that by voting for the society we want.

And the world might have been rife with conquest and strife, but this is 2016, not 1620. We have developed as humans. And we are living in a time of actual peace, not relative peace.

And the Muslims are already secularizing as we speak (and becoming less religious). And the thing you see as weakness is the opposite.

And even if I were -50, there would still not be a major European country that will "fall to Islam". You may not have a doubt but I also do not have a doubt that your prediction is absolutely hogwash/nonsense/never going to happen.

And the most important issues of our time are global warming, poverty, lack of food, drought and economic issues. Don't get me wrong, terrorism is very important but not one of the most important issues of our time.
 
Peter King said:
No, I will not find myself in a country that I do not recognize, we make our own future and we will do that by voting for the society we want.

And the world might have been rife with conquest and strife, but this is 2016, not 1620. We have developed as humans. And we are living in a time of actual peace, not relative peace.

And the Muslims are already secularizing as we speak (and becoming less religious). And the thing you see as weakness is the opposite.

And even if I were -50, there would still not be a major European country that will "fall to Islam". You may not have a doubt but I also do not have a doubt that your prediction is absolutely hogwash/nonsense/never going to happen.

And the most important issues of our time are global warming, poverty, lack of food, drought and economic issues. Don't get me wrong, terrorism is very important but not one of the most important issues of our time.
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secularism does not mean being less religious.you can be both religious and secularist.it depends on what you understand from the belief in god.
 
truthatallcost said:
People are so naive to think that a Christian less society is improvement.
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Fascinating assertion. What is a "Christian less" society?

Eventually Muslims will conquer you anyway, might seem impossible now but I guarantee it will happen.
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What evidence can you provide for either of the above claims?

A godless Netherlands is a weak people open to being subjugated.
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What does "godless" mean? No idea what you are talking about. One thing seems clear, though, you're understanding of religious history leaves something to be desired.

Nowhere in Islamic history can one find a doctrine similar to Saint Augustine’s cognite intrare (“lead them in”—i.e. “force them to convert”). In fact the Qur’an says the exact opposite: There is no compulsion in religion ( 2:256 ). Augustine’s frightening idea that all must be compelled to “conform” to the “true Christian faith” has unleashed centuries of unparalleled bloodshed. Indeed, Christians have suffered more under the rule of Christian civilization than under pre- Christian Roman rule or any other rule in history. Millions were tortured and slaughtered in the name of Christianity during the periods of the Arian, Donatist and Albigensian heresies, to say nothing of the various Inquisitions, or the Crusades, when the European armies were saying, as they slaughtered both Christian and Muslim Arabs: “Kill them all, God will know his own...

history. The Reformation and Counter Reformation took inter- Christian slaughter to new extremes; two thirds of the Christian population of Europe being slaughtered during this time. Then there were (among many others wars, pogroms, revolutions and genocides) the Napoleonic Wars ( 1792-1815 ); the African slave trade that claimed the lives of 10 million; and the Colonial Conquests. Estimates for the number of Native Americans slaughtered by the Europeans in North, Central and South America run as high as 20 million within three generations.
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Christian Violence versus Muslim Violence
 
truthatallcost said:
And BTW, there are far worse things in life than being "islamophobic", such as being completely wrong about one of the most important issues of our time.
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While I would concede your right to believe anything you want -- as long as you don't force your beliefs on others --, belief is one thing, knowledge is quite another.
That is the primary distinction, for example, between superstition and the scientific method. Islamophobia is a type of superstition. It lumps people into categories, treating human beings as members of religious or cultural groups, rather than as individuals. It focuses on the absurdities of one religion without acknowleging the absurdities of any belief that contradicts the laws of nature. There are inherent dangers in such attitudes. I would remind you that the most recent mass atrocity was conducted by "Christians" against "Muslims" at Serbrenica. That is islamophobia in practice.
 
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Medusa said:
secularism does not mean being less religious.you can be both religious and secularist.it depends on what you understand from the belief in god.
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That is why I wrote Muslims in the Netherlands are reasonably secularist and also less religious (visit mosques in much lower numbers).
 
Peter King said:
That is why I wrote Muslims in the Netherlands are reasonably secularist and also less religious (visit mosques in much lower numbers).
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but you still call them both less religious and secularist
 
Peter King said:
No, I will not find myself in a country that I do not recognize, we make our own future and we will do that by voting for the society we want.

And the world might have been rife with conquest and strife, but this is 2016, not 1620. We have developed as humans. And we are living in a time of actual peace, not relative peace.

And the Muslims are already secularizing as we speak (and becoming less religious). And the thing you see as weakness is the opposite.

And even if I were -50, there would still not be a major European country that will "fall to Islam". You may not have a doubt but I also do not have a doubt that your prediction is absolutely hogwash/nonsense/never going to happen.

And the most important issues of our time are global warming, poverty, lack of food, drought and economic issues. Don't get me wrong, terrorism is very important but not one of the most important issues of our time.
Click to expand...

I believe in the adage that, "there's nothing new under the sun". Yes, we like to think that we're living in a totally unique and clever time. We're not.
Human passions, desires, and motivations remain the same as they've always been.

Now, you might think that you can be neutral towards the 1,000,000 Muslims living in the Netherlands. You might think that they even appreciate you for your neutrality towards them. You'd be very wrong to think that.

Do you believe that you must learn from history in order to keep from making the same mistakes that were made in the past?

The Netherlands has a history of trying to remain neutral in the face of extremists.
This strategy was employed during the rise of Nazi Germany in the 1930s.
The Netherlands remained neutral in WW1, and thought that they could do so with Nazism.

Dutch leaders were famously permissive in how they failed to condemn Nazi Germany.They didnt want to anger or upset them. At the same time, the Netherlands has disarmed itself to a great extent.
A force of 750,000 Nazis subsequently conquered the Netherlands in 4 days.
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What similarities exist between Nazi Germany and modern Muslims?
-Ideology that exerts superiority and entitlement over others.
- Anti-Semitism.
-Homophobia.
- Dislike of Christians.
- Acceptance of violence as a way to reach goals of domination.

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Learn from history Pete.
I'm a big fan of European culture and history. I sure as hell don't like seeing Europe compromised like what just happened in Brussels.
 
truthatallcost said:
I believe in the adage that, "there's nothing new under the sun". Yes, we like to think that we're living in a totally unique and clever time. We're not.
Human passions, desires, and motivations remain the same as they've always been.

Now, you might think that you can be neutral towards the 1,000,000 Muslims living in the Netherlands. You might think that they even appreciate you for your neutrality towards them. You'd be very wrong to think that.

Do you believe that you must learn from history in order to keep from making the same mistakes that were made in the past?

The Netherlands has a history of trying to remain neutral in the face of extremists.
This strategy was employed during the rise of Nazi Germany in the 1930s.
The Netherlands remained neutral in WW1, and thought that they could do so with Nazism.

Dutch leaders were famously permissive in how they failed to condemn Nazi Germany.They didnt want to anger or upset them. At the same time, the Netherlands has disarmed itself to a great extent.
A force of 750,000 Nazis subsequently conquered the Netherlands in 4 days.
----
What similarities exist between Nazi Germany and modern Muslims?
-Ideology that exerts superiority and entitlement over others.
- Anti-Semitism.
-Homophobia.
- Dislike of Christians.
- Acceptance of violence as a way to reach goals of domination.

---
Learn from history Pete.
I'm a big fan of European culture and history. I sure as hell don't like seeing Europe compromised like what just happened in Brussels.
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My name is Peter, not Pete, if you would be so kind.

And we have learned from our demilitarized past/pacifistic past. It had served the Dutch government/Dutch people handily in the first world war and the Dutch government had thought everything was going to end up peaceful after the first world war was over and Germany was demilitarized.

What is also true, when we found out that Germany (a much bigger and industrialized nation) was arming itself again, it would have been near impossible to arm ourselves in such a manner that we would have been able to defend ourselves from the German forces (again, a much larger country with a very much larger army).

And we have learned from that reasonably pacifist history, we joined Nato and had troops in Korea, Lebanon, first Iraq war, landmines mission in Cambodia, Haiti (peacekeeping), former Yugoslavia, Kosovo, Ethiopia/Eritrea/Djibouti, Macedonia, Liberia, second Iraq war, Afghanistan, Somalia, Libya. Now at this moment Dutch armed forces are present in Iraq/Eastern Syria mission, mission resolute support in Afghanistan, anti-pirating mission in Somalia and several other very tiny operations (with other nations/NATO or UN missions) in countries like Burkina Faso, Bahrein, CAR, Lebanon/Syria/Israel, Kosovo, Golan heights, Gaza strip/West Bank, Bosnia-Herzegovina, South Sudan.

So contrary to your words, our attitude to defense and the military has drastically changed since the first part of the last century.
 
Medusa said:
but you still call them both less religious and secularist
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The difference is political: with few exceptions, a modern secular society does not admit religious beliefs as governing concepts. Contitutionally, the USA is a secular society. Although recent polls show that Americans are increasingly less religious in any formal sense, many still have relgious affiiliations. But religion is -- and should be -- a private matter that has nothing to do with lawmaking. Countries that are not secular, like Iran and many other so-called absolute monarchies in the Middle East, are governed almost exclusively by religious beliefs. In those countries it is virtually a crime NOT to be religious. Witness Iran and Salmon Rushdi!
 
Matrixx8 said:
The difference is political: with few exceptions, a modern secular society does not admit religious beliefs as governing concepts. Contitutionally, the USA is a secular society. Although recent polls show that Americans are increasingly less religious in any formal sense, many still have relgious affiiliations. But religion is -- and should be -- a private matter that has nothing to do with lawmaking. Countries that are not secular, like Iran and many other so-called absolute monarchies in the Middle East, are governed almost exclusively by religious beliefs. In those countries it is virtually a crime NOT to be religious. Witness Iran and Salmon Rushdi!
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I know what secularism is
 
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