Are atheists going to hell? [W:88]

This may be the most widely misunderstood thread here, and I may be a fool rushing in where angels fear to tread, but I'm gonna try anyway. First thing, regarding my thread title, let me say that I truly don't know the answer. I'm also not going to say that I know for sure who is going to heaven. God does not consult with me on such things. I believe God is just, but I also believe He is merciful and loving as well. I don't want anyone to go to hell. I'm serious about that. If I think of even the worst of the worst possible crimes that I think worthy of hell, the thought of eternal no hope for relief ever damnation is daunting even then. Think of suffering for 10,000 years (not that time would be measured in years, but we all understand that unit of time at this point), 100,000 years, a million years and now think about how those are mere minutes in the context of all eternity. I can't even wrap my mind around it.

Not believing in God does not makes anyone a bad or uncaring or immoral person. It has, in fact, been my actual experience that some of the best, most understanding, most compassionate and giving people I know are atheists. By the same token, I've seen some pretty ugly and unkind things in my fellow believers just as I am sure they have seen those things in me. I do not believe I am a better person or more worthy or whatever. On the contrary, it is my own utter and complete unworthiness that convinces me of my need for God.

Ok, so why this thread if I'm not going to even answer the question. Well, because I do want you to consider this, if God is who He is (relatively) widely understood to be, all those things that I've seen some atheists say about what they would do or say once confronted by Him, will not happen. All that bravado about spitting in His face, or calling Him a prick, or telling Him how He messed it up and how you know better the right way to be God is just that - bravado. Even if you could do all that, it would not change anything. He would not smile sheepishly or try to convince you what a great guy He really is or clap you on the back or suck up to you in anyway. I just wanted you to understand that. Please think carefully if there is any part of you that thinks that, even if you've been completely wrong all along, that you'll just be able to shame or berate God into doing your will over His. I know of no faith where that's believed to be true.

Now, I completely understand that many and probably even most of you are extremely comfortable and confident that this is not something you need to worry about. I'm not even trying to convince you otherwise. I am not God and I am not privy to His thoughts and I trust that He knows what He's doing. I believe I have some understanding who He is, but in no way is it a complete understanding.

Ok I guess this was a bit of a rant. I have put this in the Philosophy forum so that you can let me know how judgmental or holier than thou or even delusional you believe me to be. Shoot, I'll just appreciate anyone who actually just read all that.

My thought, as I apply to religion as a whole is that hell is a human concept. Like many things in life, we control others using fear.

Most people were not literate until the 1800's, before then it was more common than not that the average person you met on the street didn't know how to read. It's very easy then to come up with concepts that keep people in line, especially when the masses around you are also illiterate. And because of this illiteracy, it's hard to question concepts like hell.

But hell has never been and never will be a staple of the Jewish faith, the foundation of Christianity and Islam. Hell and its conception can be attributed to the culture around its inception, when politics was more and more used as a means of societal control.

I believe that if a God truly exists that made us in his image, he (it) would have the empathy I myself possess to understand why I did not believe in him during my lifetime, based on how I was raised (atheist) and the scientific proofs that contradict the holy scriptures, written by man in his name.

we better go to hell, I wouldn't want to go too heaven.... with all the mormons :2razz:

akrunner88 said:

My thought, as I apply to religion as a whole is that hell is a human concept. Like many things in life, we control others using fear.

Most people were not literate until the 1800's, before then it was more common than not that the average person you met on the street didn't know how to read. It's very easy then to come up with concepts that keep people in line, especially when the masses around you are also illiterate. And because of this illiteracy, it's hard to question concepts like hell.

But hell has never been and never will be a staple of the Jewish faith, the foundation of Christianity and Islam. Hell and its conception can be attributed to the culture around its inception, when politics was more and more used as a means of societal control.

I believe that if a God truly exists that made us in his image, he (it) would have the empathy I myself possess to understand why I did not believe in him during my lifetime, based on how I was raised (atheist) and the scientific proofs that contradict the holy scriptures, written by man in his name.

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I agree with this. If the Abrahamic god exists and hell were a big deal he would've mentioned it in the Old Testament. Seeing as how it just pops up in the New Testament that makes me think it's more likely that it was inserted later to control people through fear.

I was raised in an extremely bible belt family and community. I started doubting my faith as a teenager, but kept it going for another decade because I was terrified of being tortured for eternity if I stopped being Christian. It kept me in the faith longer than I should have been and I can't help but wonder how many Christians deep down refuse to challenge their faith because of fear of the consequences of what they may find.

If anyone truly believes in the Christian faith, then they should know that we do not have the power to decide who goes to hell and who does not.

Even thinking we have that power is heretical.

Yet, " church goes " are usually the first to draw the sword, and the last to see a true miracle.

I think the major difference is " religious indoctrination " rather than true belief.

I much prefer a MORAL person to a RELIGIOUS one.

RELIGIOUS people drove the planes into the world trade center.

Sure. We're also going to Hades, Jahannam, Hel, Kur and all the other near-equivalents. Us atheists are busy people once we die.

X Factor said:

This may be the most widely misunderstood thread here, and I may be a fool rushing in where angels fear to tread, but I'm gonna try anyway. First thing, regarding my thread title, let me say that I truly don't know the answer. I'm also not going to say that I know for sure who is going to heaven. God does not consult with me on such things. I believe God is just, but I also believe He is merciful and loving as well. I don't want anyone to go to hell. I'm serious about that. If I think of even the worst of the worst possible crimes that I think worthy of hell, the thought of eternal no hope for relief ever damnation is daunting even then. Think of suffering for 10,000 years (not that time would be measured in years, but we all understand that unit of time at this point), 100,000 years, a million years and now think about how those are mere minutes in the context of all eternity. I can't even wrap my mind around it.

Not believing in God does not makes anyone a bad or uncaring or immoral person. It has, in fact, been my actual experience that some of the best, most understanding, most compassionate and giving people I know are atheists. By the same token, I've seen some pretty ugly and unkind things in my fellow believers just as I am sure they have seen those things in me. I do not believe I am a better person or more worthy or whatever. On the contrary, it is my own utter and complete unworthiness that convinces me of my need for God.

Ok, so why this thread if I'm not going to even answer the question. Well, because I do want you to consider this, if God is who He is (relatively) widely understood to be, all those things that I've seen some atheists say about what they would do or say once confronted by Him, will not happen. All that bravado about spitting in His face, or calling Him a prick, or telling Him how He messed it up and how you know better the right way to be God is just that - bravado. Even if you could do all that, it would not change anything. He would not smile sheepishly or try to convince you what a great guy He really is or clap you on the back or suck up to you in anyway. I just wanted you to understand that. Please think carefully if there is any part of you that thinks that, even if you've been completely wrong all along, that you'll just be able to shame or berate God into doing your will over His. I know of no faith where that's believed to be true.

Now, I completely understand that many and probably even most of you are extremely comfortable and confident that this is not something you need to worry about. I'm not even trying to convince you otherwise. I am not God and I am not privy to His thoughts and I trust that He knows what He's doing. I believe I have some understanding who He is, but in no way is it a complete understanding.

Ok I guess this was a bit of a rant. I have put this in the Philosophy forum so that you can let me know how judgmental or holier than thou or even delusional you believe me to be. Shoot, I'll just appreciate anyone who actually just read all that.

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There have been religions in which the only way to paradise was to be slain in combat.

X Factor said:

This may be the most widely misunderstood thread here, and I may be a fool rushing in where angels fear to tread, but I'm gonna try anyway. First thing, regarding my thread title, let me say that I truly don't know the answer. I'm also not going to say that I know for sure who is going to heaven. God does not consult with me on such things. I believe God is just, but I also believe He is merciful and loving as well. I don't want anyone to go to hell. I'm serious about that. If I think of even the worst of the worst possible crimes that I think worthy of hell, the thought of eternal no hope for relief ever damnation is daunting even then. Think of suffering for 10,000 years (not that time would be measured in years, but we all understand that unit of time at this point), 100,000 years, a million years and now think about how those are mere minutes in the context of all eternity. I can't even wrap my mind around it.

Not believing in God does not makes anyone a bad or uncaring or immoral person. It has, in fact, been my actual experience that some of the best, most understanding, most compassionate and giving people I know are atheists. By the same token, I've seen some pretty ugly and unkind things in my fellow believers just as I am sure they have seen those things in me. I do not believe I am a better person or more worthy or whatever. On the contrary, it is my own utter and complete unworthiness that convinces me of my need for God.

Ok, so why this thread if I'm not going to even answer the question. Well, because I do want you to consider this, if God is who He is (relatively) widely understood to be, all those things that I've seen some atheists say about what they would do or say once confronted by Him, will not happen. All that bravado about spitting in His face, or calling Him a prick, or telling Him how He messed it up and how you know better the right way to be God is just that - bravado. Even if you could do all that, it would not change anything. He would not smile sheepishly or try to convince you what a great guy He really is or clap you on the back or suck up to you in anyway. I just wanted you to understand that. Please think carefully if there is any part of you that thinks that, even if you've been completely wrong all along, that you'll just be able to shame or berate God into doing your will over His. I know of no faith where that's believed to be true.

Now, I completely understand that many and probably even most of you are extremely comfortable and confident that this is not something you need to worry about. I'm not even trying to convince you otherwise. I am not God and I am not privy to His thoughts and I trust that He knows what He's doing. I believe I have some understanding who He is, but in no way is it a complete understanding.

Ok I guess this was a bit of a rant. I have put this in the Philosophy forum so that you can let me know how judgmental or holier than thou or even delusional you believe me to be. Shoot, I'll just appreciate anyone who actually just read all that.

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Your last paragraph: Judgemental - check; delusional - check.

Religious belief is imo a mental affliction. I wish you well and hope you make a full recovery.

Sweden said:

Religious belief is imo a mental affliction.

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On what, exactly, do you base that assertion?

X Factor said:

This may be the most widely misunderstood thread here, and I may be a fool rushing in where angels fear to tread, but I'm gonna try anyway. First thing, regarding my thread title, let me say that I truly don't know the answer. I'm also not going to say that I know for sure who is going to heaven. God does not consult with me on such things. I believe God is just, but I also believe He is merciful and loving as well. I don't want anyone to go to hell. I'm serious about that. If I think of even the worst of the worst possible crimes that I think worthy of hell, the thought of eternal no hope for relief ever damnation is daunting even then. Think of suffering for 10,000 years (not that time would be measured in years, but we all understand that unit of time at this point), 100,000 years, a million years and now think about how those are mere minutes in the context of all eternity. I can't even wrap my mind around it.

Not believing in God does not makes anyone a bad or uncaring or immoral person. It has, in fact, been my actual experience that some of the best, most understanding, most compassionate and giving people I know are atheists. By the same token, I've seen some pretty ugly and unkind things in my fellow believers just as I am sure they have seen those things in me. I do not believe I am a better person or more worthy or whatever. On the contrary, it is my own utter and complete unworthiness that convinces me of my need for God.

Ok, so why this thread if I'm not going to even answer the question. Well, because I do want you to consider this, if God is who He is (relatively) widely understood to be, all those things that I've seen some atheists say about what they would do or say once confronted by Him, will not happen. All that bravado about spitting in His face, or calling Him a prick, or telling Him how He messed it up and how you know better the right way to be God is just that - bravado. Even if you could do all that, it would not change anything. He would not smile sheepishly or try to convince you what a great guy He really is or clap you on the back or suck up to you in anyway. I just wanted you to understand that. Please think carefully if there is any part of you that thinks that, even if you've been completely wrong all along, that you'll just be able to shame or berate God into doing your will over His. I know of no faith where that's believed to be true.

Now, I completely understand that many and probably even most of you are extremely comfortable and confident that this is not something you need to worry about. I'm not even trying to convince you otherwise. I am not God and I am not privy to His thoughts and I trust that He knows what He's doing. I believe I have some understanding who He is, but in no way is it a complete understanding.

Ok I guess this was a bit of a rant. I have put this in the Philosophy forum so that you can let me know how judgmental or holier than thou or even delusional you believe me to be. Shoot, I'll just appreciate anyone who actually just read all that.

Click to expand...

Teeny tiny text :shock: - tl/dnr too hard on eyes....

Regarding the title question - the answer is quite obviously "no".

RetiredNSmilin said:

If anyone truly believes in the Christian faith, then they should know that we do not have the power to decide who goes to hell and who does not.

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Tell that to Logicman.

To answer the OP: I hope so, because I want to spend eternity with all my friends.

X Factor said:

I don't want anyone to go to hell. I'm serious about that.

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You believe in a god who apparently does though (or at least acknowledges it as an inevitable consequence of his actions). Something of a side point but relevant in context.

X Factor said:

Ok, so why this thread if I'm not going to even answer the question. Well, because I do want you to consider this, if God is who He is (relatively) widely understood to be, all those things that I've seen some atheists say about what they would do or say once confronted by Him, will not happen. All that bravado about spitting in His face, or calling Him a prick, or telling Him how He messed it up and how you know better the right way to be God is just that - bravado.

Click to expand...

I’m not sure many atheists actually take that position proactively. I have heard theists (generally Christians) directly ask atheists what they’d say to God when (in the Christian’s opinion) they faced God on death and the kind of responses you list could be included. That’s not as much about convincing God of anything (after all, the atheists don’t believe he exists), it’s about convincing Christians of the perceived logic inconsistencies in the concept of punishing people for something they’re incapable of doing.

I don't believe in hell. But, I truly enjoy watching Christians worry about going there.

Dragonfly said:

Teeny tiny text :shock: - tl/dnr too hard on eyes....

Regarding the title question - the answer is quite obviously "no".

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Sorry about the tiny text. I wrote it out on my iPad first and it, sometimes, adds all sorts of weird codes and stuff when I paste it over here. I try to clean it up but I still get weird results.

HonestJoe said:

You believe in a god who apparently does though (or at least acknowledges it as an inevitable consequence of his actions). Something of a side point but relevant in context.

I’m not sure many atheists actually take that position proactively. I have heard theists (generally Christians) directly ask atheists what they’d say to God when (in the Christian’s opinion) they faced God on death and the kind of responses you list could be included. That’s not as much about convincing God of anything (after all, the atheists don’t believe he exists), it’s about convincing Christians of the perceived logic inconsistencies in the concept of punishing people for something they’re incapable of doing.

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Thank you for responding to what I actually posted. So far, the responses to my OP would make one think that I gave a resounding yes to my question. What do you mean by your last sentence, "punishing people for something they’re incapable of doing"? What are people incapable of doing they're being punished for?

X Factor said:

What do you mean by your last sentence, "punishing people for something they’re incapable of doing"? What are people incapable of doing they're being punished for?

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I don’t see belief as a choice. I couldn’t choose to believe in a god even if I wanted to (just as you couldn’t just choose not to). Given than most theistic faiths require (if only indirectly) belief in their deity to meet the rules, laws or beliefs required to avoid the eternal punishment of hell (or whatever), I see that as based upon something we can’t voluntary change.

X Factor said:

[/FONT]Ok I guess this was a bit of a rant. I have put this in the Philosophy forum so that you can let me know how judgmental or holier than thou or even delusional you believe me to be. Shoot, I'll just appreciate anyone who actually just read all that.

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On a pure philosophical level, it appears to me that you are handing too much of your human emotion and intellectual level to God as a constant assuming a decision will be made by God on the same lines. But there is little reason to be all that negative on that point, as to your credit the Bible is written with the exact same theme. We see a God that more or less responds on a human emotional / intellectual level to dealing with people following or not following his word. The Bible itself is filled to the brim with stories of that sort of response to the actions of humanity, to the actions of a given individual. Forget the duality of the OT/NT for a moment and simply look at the wording used to show response for just the failure to believe. It is pretty damning, across the bible.

Just the idea of eternal damnation regardless of reason for it is in itself a designed way to be that fearful of said conclusion. It is perfectly rational for a theist, agnostic, or even atheist to overwhelmingly not want to see people "suffer" a sort of fate like that. Not that agnostics or atheists believe in that sort of thing, just speaking on the same emotional / intellectual level you are about the idea that rarely do we want to see someone else suffer. Perhaps there are exceptions but that type of conversation derails this conversation.

I would not really worry too much about the judgmental aspect to something like this. Cause when you really get down to it, a God deciding on such fate for someone regardless of the reason(s) must be of such level that it goes beyond our comprehension of why. So it must transcend our emotional and intellectual level, if theism turns out to be right about this. (Yes, I know... ironic.) Scripture and warning aside for a moment, the willingness of a God to judge along those lines because of the actions of the person (anything from lack of belief to the most horrific of what we call crimes and immorality) suggests perhaps not so human traits in making said decision. That level of purpose means looking at this without human confines.

I hope that helps, and appreciate that coming from an agnostic.

spud_meister said:

On what, exactly, do you base that assertion?

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Personalities that gravitate towards authority, that prefer to be ordered what to believe rather than trying to work it for themselves using reason and evidence, embrace religion and political extremism. The willful abandonment of reason and the blind acceptance of dogma is sad evidence f mental problems.

Talking of which would you care to remove that disgusting symbol or murder and oppression? Every bit as bad as displaying a swastika.

calamity said:

I don't believe in hell. But, I truly enjoy watching Christians worry about going there.

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Do not mock the afflicted Calamity. It's too much like the people who visited asylums a couple of hundred years ago to laugh at the loonies.

X Factor said:

This may be the most widely misunderstood thread here, and I may be a fool rushing in where angels fear to tread, but I'm gonna try anyway. First thing, regarding my thread title, let me say that I truly don't know the answer. I'm also not going to say that I know for sure who is going to heaven. God does not consult with me on such things. I believe God is just, but I also believe He is merciful and loving as well. I don't want anyone to go to hell. I'm serious about that. If I think of even the worst of the worst possible crimes that I think worthy of hell, the thought of eternal no hope for relief ever damnation is daunting even then. Think of suffering for 10,000 years (not that time would be measured in years, but we all understand that unit of time at this point), 100,000 years, a million years and now think about how those are mere minutes in the context of all eternity. I can't even wrap my mind around it.

Not believing in God does not makes anyone a bad or uncaring or immoral person. It has, in fact, been my actual experience that some of the best, most understanding, most compassionate and giving people I know are atheists. By the same token, I've seen some pretty ugly and unkind things in my fellow believers just as I am sure they have seen those things in me. I do not believe I am a better person or more worthy or whatever. On the contrary, it is my own utter and complete unworthiness that convinces me of my need for God.

Ok, so why this thread if I'm not going to even answer the question. Well, because I do want you to consider this, if God is who He is (relatively) widely understood to be, all those things that I've seen some atheists say about what they would do or say once confronted by Him, will not happen. All that bravado about spitting in His face, or calling Him a prick, or telling Him how He messed it up and how you know better the right way to be God is just that - bravado. Even if you could do all that, it would not change anything. He would not smile sheepishly or try to convince you what a great guy He really is or clap you on the back or suck up to you in anyway. I just wanted you to understand that. Please think carefully if there is any part of you that thinks that, even if you've been completely wrong all along, that you'll just be able to shame or berate God into doing your will over His. I know of no faith where that's believed to be true.

Now, I completely understand that many and probably even most of you are extremely comfortable and confident that this is not something you need to worry about. I'm not even trying to convince you otherwise. I am not God and I am not privy to His thoughts and I trust that He knows what He's doing. I believe I have some understanding who He is, but in no way is it a complete understanding.

Ok I guess this was a bit of a rant. I have put this in the Philosophy forum so that you can let me know how judgmental or holier than thou or even delusional you believe me to be. Shoot, I'll just appreciate anyone who actually just read all that.

Click to expand...

That is up to GOD, not me or any other man.

Casper said:

That is up to GOD, not me or any other man.

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Right, good point because I clearly did say that it was totally up to me. :lol:

Sweden said:

Do not mock the afflicted Calamity. It's too much like the people who visited asylums a couple of hundred years ago to laugh at the loonies.

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When the time comes that society agrees to call those who believe in fantasies like heaven and hell lunatics, I'll treat them with the compassion afforded mental patients. Until then, I see them more as adversaries in the war against reason.

X Factor said:

Right, good point because I clearly did say that it was totally up to me. :lol:

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I was simply answering the original question and nothing more, so don't get your panties in a wad.

As far as Christianity goes, yes.

God is their only judge.

I'll let the other faiths speak for themselves.

calamity said:

When the time comes that society agrees to call those who believe in fantasies like heaven and hell lunatics, I'll treat them with the compassion afforded mental patients. Until then, I see them more as adversaries in the war against reason.

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And as your sworn enemy that you view me to be, what would you like to see happen to me? You're in control of the world, what actions would you like taken against me for my beliefs?