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Are atheists going to hell? [W:88]

This may be the most widely misunderstood thread here, and I may be a fool rushing in where angels fear to tread, but I'm gonna try anyway. First thing, regarding my thread title, let me say that I truly don't know the answer. I'm also not going to say that I know for sure who is going to heaven. God does not consult with me on such things. I believe God is just, but I also believe He is merciful and loving as well. I don't want anyone to go to hell. I'm serious about that. If I think of even the worst of the worst possible crimes that I think worthy of hell, the thought of eternal no hope for relief ever damnation is daunting even then. Think of suffering for 10,000 years (not that time would be measured in years, but we all understand that unit of time at this point), 100,000 years, a million years and now think about how those are mere minutes in the context of all eternity. I can't even wrap my mind around it.

Not believing in God does not makes anyone a bad or uncaring or immoral person. It has, in fact, been my actual experience that some of the best, most understanding, most compassionate and giving people I know are atheists. By the same token, I've seen some pretty ugly and unkind things in my fellow believers just as I am sure they have seen those things in me. I do not believe I am a better person or more worthy or whatever. On the contrary, it is my own utter and complete unworthiness that convinces me of my need for God.


Ok, so why this thread if I'm not going to even answer the question. Well, because I do want you to consider this, if God is who He is (relatively) widely understood to be, all those things that I've seen some atheists say about what they would do or say once confronted by Him, will not happen. All that bravado about spitting in His face, or calling Him a prick, or telling Him how He messed it up and how you know better the right way to be God is just that - bravado. Even if you could do all that, it would not change anything. He would not smile sheepishly or try to convince you what a great guy He really is or clap you on the back or suck up to you in anyway. I just wanted you to understand that. Please think carefully if there is any part of you that thinks that, even if you've been completely wrong all along, that you'll just be able to shame or berate God into doing your will over His. I know of no faith where that's believed to be true.

Now, I completely understand that many and probably even most of you are extremely comfortable and confident that this is not something you need to worry about. I'm not even trying to convince you otherwise. I am not God and I am not privy to His thoughts and I trust that He knows what He's doing. I believe I have some understanding who He is, but in no way is it a complete understanding.

Ok I guess this was a bit of a rant. I have put this in the Philosophy forum so that you can let me know how judgmental or holier than thou or even delusional you believe me to be. Shoot, I'll just appreciate anyone who actually just read all that.

I used to have a sort of rant back in my late teens about this. I've always been an agnostic atheist, which means the "but what if you're wrong..." thought has always been in the back of my head. I came to terms with the possibility via this line of reasoning:

To live a moral life because it is the right thing to do is more deserving of heaven than to live a moral life because you're afraid god will smite you and send you to hell. God, if he is truly as great a guy as they tell me, will understand this. The insistence of faith being the key to the gate of heaven comes from those who gain power from your faith, the church. If I'm wrong I hope my good behavior counts for something, but from where I'm standing that is the superior moral choice.
 
Personalities that gravitate towards authority, that prefer to be ordered what to believe rather than trying to work it for themselves using reason and evidence, embrace religion and political extremism. The willful abandonment of reason and the blind acceptance of dogma is sad evidence f mental problems.

Talking of which would you care to remove that disgusting symbol or murder and oppression? Every bit as bad as displaying a swastika.

This is very interesting. The Christian God does not demand anything. He asks us to follow His Word by our own free will. There is nothing punitive if we do not 'join' a church or religion.

OTOH, many of the stories and concepts in the Bible regarding the treatment of our fellow man provide very good and positive guidance and comfort. He's a God of peace and forgiveness who promotes treating your 'brother' as you would yourself. (altho sadly many sects and people interpret His Word much more punitive and intolerant and even hateful.)

Not all of stories are so positive or constructive of course, there are some that are reflective of the times and men that wrote the Bible and are not relevant to today's society.

So I see nothing harmful or 'mentally ill' in a philosophy preaching forgiveness and peace and treating your fellow man decently. Again, misuse or misinterpretations of such are individually-based and should not tarnish the overall Message.
 
I believe in good and evil. I believe in choice. I therefore believe that everyone has a choice whether they are evil or good. I believe hell is merely the infinite side of evil or bad and heaven is the infinite side of good. I think we can choose to go either way regardless of religion. I also believe that once you have headed in a particular direction for a long time it is a long way back as well.

I therefore believe an atheist can choose the path to hell or ultimate evil.
 
I believe in good and evil. I believe in choice. I therefore believe that everyone has a choice whether they are evil or good. I believe hell is merely the infinite side of evil or bad and heaven is the infinite side of good. I think we can choose to go either way regardless of religion. I also believe that once you have headed in a particular direction for a long time it is a long way back as well.

I therefore believe an atheist can choose the path to hell or ultimate evil.
I'm not so sure everyone really has a choice on being good or evil. Lots of evidence suggests that impulsive behavior is due to mental defect of some kind. Odd thing is these people regret their actions. So they are not without empathy. They simply lack the prefrontal brain development to control their impulses.

Anyway, off topic, but I had to toss that in there. IMO, this good and evil vs free-will thing is not so clear cut.
 
I used to have a sort of rant back in my late teens about this. I've always been an agnostic atheist, which means the "but what if you're wrong..." thought has always been in the back of my head. I came to terms with the possibility via this line of reasoning:

To live a moral life because it is the right thing to do is more deserving of heaven than to live a moral life because you're afraid god will smite you and send you to hell. God, if he is truly as great a guy as they tell me, will understand this. The insistence of faith being the key to the gate of heaven comes from those who gain power from your faith, the church. If I'm wrong I hope my good behavior counts for something, but from where I'm standing that is the superior moral choice.

I've see this argument before and it has merit. Now, it's not exactly correct to say that we believe in being "good" in order to avoid hell. My belief and understanding is that I could never be good enough. Still, I understand your argument. Someone doing good things because it's right could be said to be morally "superior" to someone who does it out of a fear of consequences. For myself, I do not believe that would fundamentally change who I am if I didn't believe. Where my faith translates into action is more that I am more willing to be involved (hopefully for good) because of my faith.
 
I've see this argument before and it has merit. Now, it's not exactly correct to say that we believe in being "good" in order to avoid hell. My belief and understanding is that I could never be good enough. Still, I understand your argument. Someone doing good things because it's right could be said to be morally "superior" to someone who does it out of a fear of consequences. For myself, I do not believe that would fundamentally change who I am if I didn't believe. Where my faith translates into action is more that I am more willing to be involved (hopefully for good) because of my faith.

I should have included that, but I don't mean to say all who have faith live a moral life out of fear or that I am morally superior to those who have faith but don't have such fears. But that line of reasoning really deflates the arguments from the older generations who tried to tell me I was destined to hell for not attending church. I, also, agree that my life would not be much different in this regard if I were to have faith or not. Apart from the prayer, ceremony, and ritual part of religion and having faith that is.
 
This may be the most widely misunderstood thread here, and I may be a fool rushing in where angels fear to tread, but I'm gonna try anyway. First thing, regarding my thread title, let me say that I truly don't know the answer. I'm also not going to say that I know for sure who is going to heaven. God does not consult with me on such things. I believe God is just, but I also believe He is merciful and loving as well. I don't want anyone to go to hell. I'm serious about that. If I think of even the worst of the worst possible crimes that I think worthy of hell, the thought of eternal no hope for relief ever damnation is daunting even then. Think of suffering for 10,000 years (not that time would be measured in years, but we all understand that unit of time at this point), 100,000 years, a million years and now think about how those are mere minutes in the context of all eternity. I can't even wrap my mind around it.

Not believing in God does not makes anyone a bad or uncaring or immoral person. It has, in fact, been my actual experience that some of the best, most understanding, most compassionate and giving people I know are atheists. By the same token, I've seen some pretty ugly and unkind things in my fellow believers just as I am sure they have seen those things in me. I do not believe I am a better person or more worthy or whatever. On the contrary, it is my own utter and complete unworthiness that convinces me of my need for God.


Ok, so why this thread if I'm not going to even answer the question. Well, because I do want you to consider this, if God is who He is (relatively) widely understood to be, all those things that I've seen some atheists say about what they would do or say once confronted by Him, will not happen. All that bravado about spitting in His face, or calling Him a prick, or telling Him how He messed it up and how you know better the right way to be God is just that - bravado. Even if you could do all that, it would not change anything. He would not smile sheepishly or try to convince you what a great guy He really is or clap you on the back or suck up to you in anyway. I just wanted you to understand that. Please think carefully if there is any part of you that thinks that, even if you've been completely wrong all along, that you'll just be able to shame or berate God into doing your will over His. I know of no faith where that's believed to be true.

Now, I completely understand that many and probably even most of you are extremely comfortable and confident that this is not something you need to worry about. I'm not even trying to convince you otherwise. I am not God and I am not privy to His thoughts and I trust that He knows what He's doing. I believe I have some understanding who He is, but in no way is it a complete understanding.

Ok I guess this was a bit of a rant. I have put this in the Philosophy forum so that you can let me know how judgmental or holier than thou or even delusional you believe me to be. Shoot, I'll just appreciate anyone who actually just read all that.

I think those that believe there is ANYTHING after death are delusional. We are just another animal that evolved here on Earth. Do you think flys go to heaven too? Or do you think only humans go simply because we thought of the idea? We die to make room for the new like all life on Earth. Without death there can be no life. Make that your religion. Some of your genes may survive but that is all.
 
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I'm not so sure everyone really has a choice on being good or evil. Lots of evidence suggests that impulsive behavior is due to mental defect of some kind. Odd thing is these people regret their actions. So they are not without empathy. They simply lack the prefrontal brain development to control their impulses.

Anyway, off topic, but I had to toss that in there. IMO, this good and evil vs free-will thing is not so clear cut.

I agree. I am willing to bet that 90% of the people sitting in our jails have mental illness that is the direct cause of their criminal behavior. Yet most people still believe putting them in jail is the solution. That is because most people do not want to help these people but punish them.

You are not off topic at all. Once we became a society it is everyone's responsibility to help people who have mental disorders that cause them to take away other peoples freedom of choice. I believe choosing to be evil or bad is a mental disorder whether genetic or learned. Just like pack animals will force out any member that does not conform I think we are doing the same with people who don't conform to society. Sad that we have yet to evolve to a point where we at least try to help these people. But for now prison is the answer.
 
Personalities that gravitate towards authority, that prefer to be ordered what to believe rather than trying to work it for themselves using reason and evidence, embrace religion and political extremism. The willful abandonment of reason and the blind acceptance of dogma is sad evidence f mental problems.

So we can also then apply your definition of mental illness, being "Personalities that gravitate towards authority, that prefer to be ordered what to believe rather than trying to work it for themselves", to those who serve in the military, seek to climb the corporate ladder, lawyers, and anyone else who chooses to be active in an authoritarian and ordered environment with well defined rules.



Talking of which would you care to remove that disgusting symbol or murder and oppression? Every bit as bad as displaying a swastika.

It's merely a symbol of Russian pride.
 
I believe God is just, but I also believe He is merciful and loving as well.
Really?

(Which god, by the way? There are so many to choose from.)

Let's consider the story of Noah, and assume there were around 100 million people on the planet and billions of animals at that time. Most of those humans had never heard of YHWH; remember, all the action in the Old Testament takes place in small parts of the Middle East, and there were millions of people in Asia and the New World.

Apparently, YHWH was not happy with human beings (which he designed and created). What did he do? He flooded the entire planet, killing millions upon millions of humans, with no warning. Oh, and billions of animals too, which had not done anything wrong.

I'm fairly certain that any human who suggested wiping out almost the entire population of North America as a punishment for collective sins would be seen as monstrous beyond comprehension. When a deity does it, it's just and loving.

Anyway....


Not believing in God does not makes anyone a bad or uncaring or immoral person....
I'm glad you can perceive that. The thing is:

Ultimately, morality in Abrahamic religions is not about the inherent virtue or vice of an action; it's about obedience to the deity. Rejecting the existence of the deity is seen as a crime against the deity.

Christianity and Islam mostly assert a binary afterlife: Heaven or Hell. If you have defied the deity, you are going to Hell. There is no theological or textural reason to believe otherwise.***

The ethical status of a deity is not to be questioned, because the deity (via its human interpreters, of course) sets the standards what is and is not ethical. Even if some of those laws are based on an underlying theory of ethics, you aren't following those laws because YHWH gave an extended defense of how or why they are ethical; you're following them because you were told to do so. Follow orders or burn.

As with the Noah example, any human who imposed similar strictures today would not be regarded as ethical. If I tell my 14 year old son that masturbation is wrong, and it is his choice whether or not to masturbate, but I will beat him for a week straight if he masturbates, will my neighbors praise me? That seems unlikely today (though I might have gotten away with it as recently as 30 or 40 years ago).


if God is who He is (relatively) widely understood to be, all those things that I've seen some atheists say about what they would do or say once confronted by Him, will not happen. All that bravado about spitting in His face, or calling Him a prick, or telling Him how He messed it up and how you know better the right way to be God is just that - bravado.
Uh.... How can you spit in the face of something that doesn't exist? :confused:


Now, I completely understand that many and probably even most of you are extremely comfortable and confident that this is not something you need to worry about.
Pretty much


I'm not even trying to convince you otherwise.
Kinda seems that way, though.

I mean, if your question is "how do you handle virtuous materialists?" then the answer will vary greatly based on your religion, denomination and personal beliefs. As far as I know, though, most Abrahamic religions will say that the non-believer is doomed.



*** We should note that for hundreds of years, many Christians did believe in Limbo and Purgatory. The "virtuous unbaptized" went to Limbo; baptized sinners who essentially committed only venal sins, went to Purgatory to be "purified". The RCC cancelled limbo officially in 2007. Catholics don't discuss Purgatory much anymore, but it's still technically part of the doctrine. Protestants reject the existence of Purgatory, in part because there's no real textural support for it, in part because it played a large role in the abuse of indulgences. So I ask you, who is right....?
 
Actually I wouldn't mind going to Limbo, the First Circle. It's pretty laid-back according to Dante, and you would get to hang out with Greek heroes and philosophers for eternity such as Socrates and Plato.

But in all seriousness, I think Jesus hates the Christian God with a much greater passion than any Atheist ever could. To follow the teachings of Jesus really and truly, and the Ten Commandments, is to wield the biggest middle-finger to organized religion and Bible-thumpers than Atheism or any religion could ever dream of. Faith =/= religion. And the Merciful and Loving Lord and Universal Reconciliation that Jesus preaches truly shows how in the eyes of the Creator; his Mortal children are just that - children. Children can be assholes and downright evil but if Hell and Eternal Torment exists, it is because Satan wills it to be so, and with the Fire and Wrath of God where it truly belongs - within the heart of the soul - it is not only one's right, but one's duty to conquer them. I believe if Hell exists, so too does Universal Reconciliation, and that the Will of Man and God are one and the same, and the simple fact if that were too be real, one would have the power, through God, to overthrow the Kingdom of Satan and his Lies (the Bible, Dictatorships and Organized Religion) and free both living mortals and immortal souls from the Dictatorship of Satan - who many humans worship without realizing it.

If there was a Great Flood, it was Satan's doing.
If there was an extraterrestrial origin of Hatred of Homosexuals, Atheists, and followers of other Gods (which do exist, the Ten Commandments say so), it was Satan's doing.
Hell and Fear are Satan's doing.
The Bible is possibly even Satan's doing, but I think this one can be accredited to the Arrogance of Man-Children.
God is Love. Love is God. That is all. And yes, I do believe in God. Everything else is an illusion.
 
There is no hell.

Apparently, the younger generation in the US, as they are also called as millenials, also reject the idea of hell. They have even devised a new Christian based religion where no hell exists.

That claim is also stupid and baseless, but it's an important development in the general stupid belief of religion that is invading the intellectual ability of most of humanity... some of the christians are now willing to admit that there is no hell!

We're making progress... one 16th of an inch every 50 years.... better than nothing.
 
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I've see this argument before and it has merit. Now, it's not exactly correct to say that we believe in being "good" in order to avoid hell. My belief and understanding is that I could never be good enough. Still, I understand your argument. Someone doing good things because it's right could be said to be morally "superior" to someone who does it out of a fear of consequences. For myself, I do not believe that would fundamentally change who I am if I didn't believe. Where my faith translates into action is more that I am more willing to be involved (hopefully for good) because of my faith.

maybe not a difference for you, but i believe there are studies demonstrating that on average atheists are more charitable and less likely to commit crime. Since atheists do so not out of divine reward or punishment, if i were a deity, i just might be more impressed by that

....maybe giving myself an idea that i should start a "are theists going to hell?" poll
 
maybe not a difference for you, but i believe there are studies demonstrating that on average atheists are more charitable and less likely to commit crime. Since atheists do so not out of divine reward or punishment, if i were a deity, i just might be more impressed by that

....maybe giving myself an idea that i should start a "are theists going to hell?" poll

Yes. You are truly better. :)
 
I've gotten pissed at Calamity before but I think I'm understanding him better and, to be fair, he has a point. Once religious beliefs translate into political actions, those beliefs are fair game, just like everyone else's.

i've been saying this for a long time, although i extend that as well to "translates into treating people like dirt." Then there's the argument that a belief is harmless but still factually incorrect, though i tend to not give a damn

a delicate balance though, to interpret whether those actions are *due* to the beliefs, or the beliefs are just an unrelated part of a twisted personality. Was the mother who killed her kids and claimed in the 911 call "god told me to" provoked by religion? Would she have done it anyway, because she was psychotic, and just found some other excuse? Some combination of the two?
 
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This may be the most widely misunderstood thread here, and I may be a fool rushing in where angels fear to tread, but I'm gonna try anyway. First thing, regarding my thread title, let me say that I truly don't know the answer. I'm also not going to say that I know for sure who is going to heaven. God does not consult with me on such things. I believe God is just, but I also believe He is merciful and loving as well. I don't want anyone to go to hell. I'm serious about that. If I think of even the worst of the worst possible crimes that I think worthy of hell, the thought of eternal no hope for relief ever damnation is daunting even then. Think of suffering for 10,000 years (not that time would be measured in years, but we all understand that unit of time at this point), 100,000 years, a million years and now think about how those are mere minutes in the context of all eternity. I can't even wrap my mind around it.

Not believing in God does not makes anyone a bad or uncaring or immoral person. It has, in fact, been my actual experience that some of the best, most understanding, most compassionate and giving people I know are atheists. By the same token, I've seen some pretty ugly and unkind things in my fellow believers just as I am sure they have seen those things in me. I do not believe I am a better person or more worthy or whatever. On the contrary, it is my own utter and complete unworthiness that convinces me of my need for God.


Ok, so why this thread if I'm not going to even answer the question. Well, because I do want you to consider this, if God is who He is (relatively) widely understood to be, all those things that I've seen some atheists say about what they would do or say once confronted by Him, will not happen. All that bravado about spitting in His face, or calling Him a prick, or telling Him how He messed it up and how you know better the right way to be God is just that - bravado. Even if you could do all that, it would not change anything. He would not smile sheepishly or try to convince you what a great guy He really is or clap you on the back or suck up to you in anyway. I just wanted you to understand that. Please think carefully if there is any part of you that thinks that, even if you've been completely wrong all along, that you'll just be able to shame or berate God into doing your will over His. I know of no faith where that's believed to be true.

Now, I completely understand that many and probably even most of you are extremely comfortable and confident that this is not something you need to worry about. I'm not even trying to convince you otherwise. I am not God and I am not privy to His thoughts and I trust that He knows what He's doing. I believe I have some understanding who He is, but in no way is it a complete understanding.

Ok I guess this was a bit of a rant. I have put this in the Philosophy forum so that you can let me know how judgmental or holier than thou or even delusional you believe me to be. Shoot, I'll just appreciate anyone who actually just read all that.

According to the Bible, unbelievers will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” - Revelation 21:8

So yeah, atheists are toast waiting to happen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrpmv_zOa0k
 
According to the Bible, unbelievers will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” - Revelation 21:8

So yeah, atheists are toast waiting to happen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrpmv_zOa0k

Religion is at its best when it makes us ask hard questions of ourselves.
It is at its worst when it deludes us into thinking
we have all the answers for everybody else.
A man who lives, not by what he loves but what he hates, is a sick man.
— Archibald Macleish
 
The mainstream Judaism does not use the concept of Hell.. so no, no one is going to hell.

The nearest it comes is from the Zohar, which is written in the 13th century is the concept of Ghennah, which says that the souls of the dead are purged in fire for up to a year, and if they can not be purified in that time, the soul is granted obviation. This seems to be strongly influenced by Catholicism's concept of purgatory.
 
According to the Bible, unbelievers will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” - Revelation 21:8

So yeah, atheists are toast waiting to happen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrpmv_zOa0k

Aaaaannnnnnddddd here we have it: the example of what embarasses and harms the Christian religion, the reason we often have threads like this. *sigh*

This is very interesting. The Christian God does not demand anything. He asks us to follow His Word by our own free will. There is nothing punitive if we do not 'join' a church or religion.

OTOH, many of the stories and concepts in the Bible regarding the treatment of our fellow man provide very good and positive guidance and comfort. He's a God of peace and forgiveness who promotes treating your 'brother' as you would yourself. (altho sadly many sects and people interpret His Word much more punitive and intolerant and even hateful.)

Not all of stories are so positive or constructive of course, there are some that are reflective of the times and men that wrote the Bible and are not relevant to today's society.

So I see nothing harmful or 'mentally ill' in a philosophy preaching forgiveness and peace and treating your fellow man decently. Again, misuse or misinterpretations of such are individually-based and should not tarnish the overall Message.

This poster IMO does NOT practice the Christian faith as God Himself says he desires (not demanded).
 
Not about your on average superiority though, right? Really, I learn something every time we engage.

i figured you would get reactive, but the thing is, i don't care either. You asked a question i could easily take offense to, so you'll just have to suck it up

If you're going to postulate some sweeping damnation on basis of nonbelief, why i am not allowed to counter that maybe a just, loving god (as you put it) should care more about things like charity and not engaging in crime? In which case, atheists as a group hold up rather well to be condemned en mass by a just, loving god. That is all i was getting at - answering your ****ing question

i thought it also meshed well with my other post, which i dunno if you read - correlation vs causation is a fallacy i try to avoid after all. I imagine for example that the reason for lower crime rate among atheists is that the church is most embedded in low income areas which of course have higher crime rate to begin with and NOT because theists are morally inferior

so point in fact you seemed to have learned nothing because i was not getting at superiority at all
 
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