Intristic Diversity And A Divine Creator

Cultural clashes have been more diversifying than unifying. The clashes are intrinsic of our human existence. I find it logical that if a divine creation is the explanation of our existence, the creator is the sole cause of our greatest human on human atrocities.

I further speculate that if this creator were to exist, this creator would have a purpose for this diversity among its human and other non-human species.

I look forward to reading your responses to these thoughts.

Pozessed said:

I find it logical that if a divine creation is the explanation of our existence, the creator is the sole cause of our greatest human on human atrocities.

Click to expand...

Questions for you: If you're god, how do create man with free will and at the same time not allow him to do evil if he chooses?

How would you fix that without creating a pre-programmed robot who could only do good?

And if there's evil in the world, then there's good also? You have both, right? And according to you, god is thus responsible for the good as well as the bad?

Logicman said:

Questions for you:

a) If you're god, how do create man with free will and at the same time not allow him to do evil if he chooses?

b) How would you fix that without creating a pre-programmed robot who could only do good?

c) And if there's evil in the world, then there's good also? You have both, right?

d) And according to you, god is thus responsible for the good as well as the bad?

Click to expand...

a) I presume what we consider evil would have to be benign to a creators perception.

b) Free will and evil would not create a conflict in the agenda of whatever created us. Otherwise the cultural conflicts created by this speculated divinity that exists in human history would never have happened.

c) I believe if this universe is a creation this universe evolved into a masterpiece. Said creation would be considered a perfection to the standards of its creator. There is no mistakes. There is no bad. There is no evil. Evil is only perceived to exist by those that were this divinities creation.

d) I currently see no other logical conclusion, so yes.

Pozessed said:

a) I presume what we consider evil would have to be benign to a creators perception.

b) Free will and evil would not create a conflict in the agenda of whatever created us. Otherwise the cultural conflicts created by this speculated divinity that exists in human history would never have happened.

c) I believe if this universe is a creation this universe evolved into a masterpiece. Said creation would be considered a perfection to the standards of its creator. There is no mistakes. There is no bad. There is no evil. Evil is only perceived to exist by those that were this divinities creation.

d) I currently see no other logical conclusion, so yes.

Click to expand...

but what of pain and suffering?

it is hard to view that as nuetral

Pozessed said:

Cultural clashes have been more diversifying than unifying. The clashes are intrinsic of our human existence. I find it logical that if a divine creation is the explanation of our existence, the creator is the sole cause of our greatest human on human atrocities.

I further speculate that if this creator were to exist, this creator would have a purpose for this diversity among its human and other non-human species.

I look forward to reading your responses to these thoughts.

Click to expand...

I can see two different issues with your proposal here. I'll address the second one first since it's simpler.

You end with the speculation that if there is a creator, it would have a purpose for diversity. If I am painting a field, there is purpose for why I choose to paint a variety of different flowers and not just the same flower over and over again; it looks better. You seem to be implying that God must be some kind of engineer who cares only about function and thus his purpose must be functional. But in fact, the God of Christianity is more like an artist who takes pleasure in the beauty of his creation. It could be that his purpose for creating such diversity is that it just looks better and makes things more interesting. There's no reason to assume that there must be some function discernible to us.

The other problem I see with your point of view is that you seem to be unaware of the power of culture. Culturalism as a force has not divided people, it has done the opposite. Cultural affinity is what causes people to band together and create civilizations. The fact that certain groups have certain things in common (including race, geography, history, etc) encourages them to band together and start thinking of themselves as part of something bigger than just one family. This is what leads communities to develop and begin to organize and that, in turn, makes possible the shift from hunter-gatherer societies to agricultural and from there to industrial societies. Far from being a divisive influence, it's a uniting influence.

Pozessed said:

Cultural clashes have been more diversifying than unifying. The clashes are intrinsic of our human existence. I find it logical that if a divine creation is the explanation of our existence, the creator is the sole cause of our greatest human on human atrocities.

I further speculate that if this creator were to exist, this creator would have a purpose for this diversity among its human and other non-human species.

I look forward to reading your responses to these thoughts.

Click to expand...

I reject your opening assertion, that culture "clashes" (whatever they are) it becomes more divisive. That may be in America where NO issue escapes some form of racism angle, but it is not true elsewhere. Canada is the most diverse nation on the planet, and Vancouver is the most diverse in the country. In the more than 30 years here I have never experienced nor seen any form of racial tension or conflict; Canada has never had a race war.

So your premise sucks.

This is my first post, here and I hope it makes sense.

As a note, though I am taking a position of defense of the Christian belief system I am, myself, an Agnostic and do not necessarily share the beliefs.

That being said, I have seen over the years and been "guilty" of it, myself- of blaming God for all that is wrong with the world.
My viewpoint and my opinion is as such.
Be it through evolution or designed creation, we as a species were given a paradise. It wasn't a god (the god or otherwise) or any other outside force that destroyed this paradise and made the world of man what it is today. It was our species, itself.
It is far too easy to put the woes of the world on to the back of something other than ourselves but that, IMO, is not overly logical.

Ntharotep said:

This is my first post, here and I hope it makes sense.

As a note, though I am taking a position of defense of the Christian belief system I am, myself, an Agnostic and do not necessarily share the beliefs.

That being said, I have seen over the years and been "guilty" of it, myself- of blaming God for all that is wrong with the world.
My viewpoint and my opinion is as such.
Be it through evolution or designed creation, we as a species were given a paradise. It wasn't a god (the god or otherwise) or any other outside force that destroyed this paradise and made the world of man what it is today. It was our species, itself.
It is far too easy to put the woes of the world on to the back of something other than ourselves but that, IMO, is not overly logical.

Click to expand...

Well written. Thank you for your input. Welcome to the forums.

Placing blame to the cause of a problem is necessary for any logical solution to be constructed.

_Sal said:

but what of pain and suffering?

it is hard to view that as nuetral

Click to expand...

Pain and suffering are either irrelevant or necessary for the creators desired function.

Well if this was in the religious forum (since you are asking about a "divine" purpose behind the diversity), then you would only have to look to Genesis 11:1–9; better known as the story of the Tower of Babel.

In the story, the whole world was united under a single king, who came to believe himself to be so powerful that he could challenge God. So he commanded his people to build a tower up to Heaven. God punished this arrogance by destroying the tower and confusing the people by giving them different languages so they would not be able to cooperate. He then scattered them in their new divisions around the world.

The simple reality is that even though we all may have the same roots, as our ancestors spread around the world the distances separating each group from the other allowed for a myriad of changes. This as each group adapted to the conditions of their environment, and the normal changes in language that occur over time.

Now, with the advent of instantaneous mass communication, and the rapid means of travel linking us to each other in mere days (if not hours), the differences developed over time create problems due to culture clash/shock.

Pozessed said:

Pain and suffering are either irrelevant or necessary for the creators desired function.

Click to expand...

Okay so where does that leave us except to ask what is the creator's desired function?

Captain Adverse said:

Now, with the advent of instantaneous mass communication, and the rapid means of travel linking us to each other in mere days (if not hours), the differences developed over time create problems due to culture clash/shock.

Click to expand...

This would not take away from the idea that we were purposefully divided upon our creation. That division must have had a purpose if we were created. If we weren't created, maybe considering a bigger perspective on how to conquer our cultural divides will be beneficial to someone.

_Sal said:

Okay so where does that leave us except to ask what is the creator's desired function?

Click to expand...

If we knew that, we would probably know the reason we were created with diversity.

Pozessed said:

If we knew that, we would probably know the reason we were created with diversity.

Click to expand...

what if we weren't created with purposeful diversity but just as a part of the evolutionary process it occurred?

Pozessed said:

This would not take away from the idea that we were purposefully divided upon our creation. That division must have had a purpose if we were created. If we weren't created, maybe considering a bigger perspective on how to conquer our cultural divides will be beneficial to someone.

Click to expand...

I explained that "divine" purpose with the Genesis reference. Did you miss that?

_Sal said:

what if we weren't created with purposeful diversity but just as a part of the evolutionary process it occurred?

Click to expand...

That is totally possible IMO. We could also be unimportant or unnoticed to this creators purpose for the universe entirely.

Captain Adverse said:

I explained that "divine" purpose with the Genesis reference. Did you miss that?

Click to expand...

Genesis does not explain why we are heading back towards a generalized global communication.

Pozessed said:

Genesis does not explain why we are heading back towards a generalized global communication.

Click to expand...

Stop moving the goal posts, that is NOT the question you asked. If my answer did not satisfy you a proper response would be to address what was posted and not try to change the question.

Captain Adverse said:

Stop moving the goal posts, that is NOT the question you asked. If my answer did not satisfy you a proper response would be to address what was posted and not try to change the question.

Click to expand...

Genesis describes our diversity originating because of our arrogance to build a tower to heaven. That same arrogance has led us to ideals of the god particle, lunar elevators, cloning, and bio-mechanics. All of which seem to be greater accomplishments towards being "God like" and potentially more blasphemous than the tower of Babel.

If the purpose of diversity was supposed to make us less able and less arrogant, the Biblical God that punished Babel is contradicting the Bibles stated cause of our diversity. Thus, I doubt the Biblical details to be accurate.

Pozessed said:

Genesis describes our diversity originating because of our arrogance to build a tower to heaven. That same arrogance has led us to ideals of the god particle, lunar elevators, cloning, and bio-mechanics. All of which seem to be greater accomplishments towards being "God like" and potentially more blasphemous than the tower of Babel.

If the purpose of diversity was supposed to make us less able and less arrogant, the Biblical God that punished Babel is contradicting the Bibles stated cause of our diversity. Thus, I doubt the Biblical details to be accurate.

Click to expand...

That because you misunderstand the reference. It was not done to make us "less able and less arrogant," because that runs counter to free will. It was done to make us less cooperative, less "homogenous" in order to prevent herd mentality, so that we could not agree to challenge God directly again.

We may be able to fly anywhere in the space of a few hours, and call (almost) anyone in the space of a few seconds, but we are still not able to cooperate are we?

We are still subject to regional tensions, insular thinking, and all sorts of tensions based on racism, religious belief, nationalism, economic disparity, etc., etc., etc.. What on Earth makes you think we are becoming more cooperative? Look at the division within the USA alone!

Captain Adverse said:

That because you misunderstand the reference. It was not done to make us "less able and less arrogant," because that runs counter to free will. It was done to make us less cooperative, less "homogenous" in order to prevent herd mentality, so that we could not agree to challenge God directly again.

We may be able to fly anywhere in the space of a few hours, and call (almost) anyone in the space of a few seconds, but we are still not able to cooperate are we?

We are still subject to regional tensions, insular thinking, and all sorts of tensions based on racism, religious belief, nationalism, economic disparity, etc., etc., etc.. What on Earth makes you think we are becoming more cooperative? Look at the division within the USA alone!

Click to expand...

We need to be able to globally communicate before we can globally cooperate. The ability for almost instant global communication on an individual basis is a relatively new engagement in our history. We are lacking as a globally unified public. We however do have practices which involve global cooperation to some standards. Global trade, communications, international travel, the space station, etc is proof of practical global cooperation. The fact that our potential to cooperate should be more beneficial for our global public is what leads me to believe our global cooperation will dissolve many of the tensions you list in your last sentences.
If the ideal of separating the people were to prevent a herd mentality, I think many people would agree that objective failed. The term "sheeple" comes to mind, which definitely implies herd like mentality. I also think many people would agree that if it weren't for people believing the media without furthering their own research(those are the sheeple), we wouldn't be in much of the global turmoil that we are in. Referencing my last post, we are trying to achieve "God like" abilities, and the majorities of us would appreciate and somehow work to acquire the benefits of those abilities. I believe the reason you speculate for Babel to separate people, taken into consideration with current events and future probabilities are contradicting each other.

Pozessed said:

We need to be able to globally communicate before we can globally cooperate. The ability for almost instant global communication on an individual basis is a relatively new engagement in our history. We are lacking as a globally unified public. We however do have practices which involve global cooperation to some standards. Global trade, communications, international travel, the space station, etc is proof of practical global cooperation. The fact that our potential to cooperate should be more beneficial for our global public is what leads me to believe our global cooperation will dissolve many of the tensions you list in your last sentences.
If the ideal of separating the people were to prevent a herd mentality, I think many people would agree that objective failed. The term "sheeple" comes to mind, which definitely implies herd like mentality. I also think many people would agree that if it weren't for people believing the media without furthering their own research(those are the sheeple), we wouldn't be in much of the global turmoil that we are in. Referencing my last post, we are trying to achieve "God like" abilities, and the majorities of us would appreciate and somehow work to acquire the benefits of those abilities. I believe the reason you speculate for Babel to separate people, taken into consideration with current events and future probabilities are contradicting each other.

Click to expand...

Sheeple is a term invented by conspiracy theorists.

I was out walking one day when I came upon a spider web where the spider was moving toward a fly caught in the web when I heard one of them say, "There is no God."