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Can we choose what we believe?

Skeptic Bob

Skeptic Bob

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Does a Christian CHOOSE to believe Christ is the Lord? Does an atheist CHOOSE not to believe in gods? Does a Muslim CHOOSE to believe the Koran is the word of Allah? Do you CHOOSE to be liberal, libertarian, or conservative?

Obviously our beliefs CAN change. But is such a change a conscious decision or is it a more complicated, mostly subconscious, process?

I am an atheist. You could point a gun to my head and tell me to believe in God and souls and the magic of prayer or you will kill me. I may very well lie and go through the motions of a sudden conversion but in my own mind I won't actually believe.

It always struck me as strange when people convert to a different religion in order to marry someone. Does anyone really believe the convert changed what they believe rather than just going through the motions?

We can CHOOSE to be willfully ignorant. We can CHOOSE not to research or listen to information that counters our beliefs. But do we actually choose what we do believe? I doubt it. What about you?
 
BrewerBob said:
Does a Christian CHOOSE to believe Christ is the Lord? Does an atheist CHOOSE not to believe in gods? Does a Muslim CHOOSE to believe the Koran is the word of Allah? Do you CHOOSE to be liberal, libertarian, or conservative?

Obviously our beliefs CAN change. But is such a change a conscious decision or is it a more complicated, mostly subconscious, process?

I am an atheist. You could point a gun to my head and tell me to believe in God and souls and the magic of prayer or you will kill me. I may very well lie and go through the motions of a sudden conversion but in my own mind I won't actually believe.

It always struck me as strange when people convert to a different religion in order to marry someone. Does anyone really believe the convert changed what they believe rather than just going through the motions?

We can CHOOSE to be willfully ignorant. We can CHOOSE not to research or listen to information that counters our beliefs. But do we actually choose what we do believe? I doubt it. What about you?
Click to expand...
Free Will does not appear to be very free at all and humans aren't known for examining themselves rationally. They mostly believe what they were told to believe. That's why the One True Religion is 99 out of a 100 times the one they were raised in and they only one they know anything at all about.
 
There are those who think
That life has nothing left to chance
A host of holy horrors
To direct our aimless dance

A planet of playthings
We dance on the strings of powers we cannot perceive
The stars aren't aligned or the gods are malign
Blame is better to give than receive

You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose freewill

***Rush
 
BrewerBob said:
Does a Christian CHOOSE to believe Christ is the Lord? Does an atheist CHOOSE not to believe in gods? Does a Muslim CHOOSE to believe the Koran is the word of Allah? Do you CHOOSE to be liberal, libertarian, or conservative?

Obviously our beliefs CAN change. But is such a change a conscious decision or is it a more complicated, mostly subconscious, process?

I am an atheist. You could point a gun to my head and tell me to believe in God and souls and the magic of prayer or you will kill me. I may very well lie and go through the motions of a sudden conversion but in my own mind I won't actually believe.

It always struck me as strange when people convert to a different religion in order to marry someone. Does anyone really believe the convert changed what they believe rather than just going through the motions?

We can CHOOSE to be willfully ignorant. We can CHOOSE not to research or listen to information that counters our beliefs. But do we actually choose what we do believe? I doubt it. What about you?
Click to expand...

You always have a choice.... many/most choose poorly. They choose not to look within, look at how they were influenced by their childhood and the world around them... ignorance and shutting yourself out of your inner self is a choice.

Rationality may be what we all have in common, it is what connects us all to the truth.... some choose to not be rational... some find rationality in certain things that others do not... a lot of things are much more complicated than what we want to believe, our biases are in what we feel is more important and when there is a logical impasse, which side do you fall back on. We choose to be irrational when our rationality reaches it limits.... our beliefs reflect where rationality doesn't reach, we seek answers where there possibly are none or that they are unobtainable.

We always have a choice to be rational, or not.
 
Most people on earth are socialized into their beliefs. It is most certainly that way in the U.S. You believe or not as your parents and their parents and your friends and their friends and your neighbors and so on. The beliefs are reinforced from the earliest of life.

That's changing now in the U.S. as more and more Americans are turning away from organized religions.
 
Risky Thicket said:
Most people on earth are socialized into their beliefs. It is most certainly that way in the U.S. You believe or not as your parents and their parents and your friends and their friends and your neighbors and so on. The beliefs are reinforced from the earliest of life.

That's changing now in the U.S. as more and more Americans are turning away from organized religions.
Click to expand...
Thank God for small favors.
 
BrewerBob said:
Does a Christian CHOOSE to believe Christ is the Lord? Does an atheist CHOOSE not to believe in gods? Does a Muslim CHOOSE to believe the Koran is the word of Allah? Do you CHOOSE to be liberal, libertarian, or conservative?

Obviously our beliefs CAN change. But is such a change a conscious decision or is it a more complicated, mostly subconscious, process?

I am an atheist. You could point a gun to my head and tell me to believe in God and souls and the magic of prayer or you will kill me. I may very well lie and go through the motions of a sudden conversion but in my own mind I won't actually believe.

It always struck me as strange when people convert to a different religion in order to marry someone. Does anyone really believe the convert changed what they believe rather than just going through the motions?

We can CHOOSE to be willfully ignorant. We can CHOOSE not to research or listen to information that counters our beliefs. But do we actually choose what we do believe? I doubt it. What about you?
Click to expand...

Yes...and no. There's too many variables to make any kind of generalization or determination in your question. Not only must there be access to the same level of information over the lifetimes of any particular population (and the same quality - true or false - of information), but there are issues of how different brains process that same information. For instance, there's a growing body of work showing actual biological characteristics (in the brain) that have a significant influence over whether one is liberal or conservative, and there's some indication that there may be some biological characteristics as to whether one can believe in a higher being...or not.

What's more, access to proper nutrition is a factor, and so is whether one lives in a location with political or social stability, or even the level of pollution in that location (particularly the toxicity of that pollution).

In other words, except for the possible indication of physical brain characteristics I mentioned above, there's no way for us to make a blanket determination as to what factors lead to us believing in God.

Bear in mind, now, that I am Christian. I was raised in the Deep South, was member of several different denominations, and had finally become agnostic and was on my way to becoming atheist...until I was shown something that I could not deny. As a result, I am a member of the Church of Christ. Being of a scientific bent, it's something that I have to struggle with every day...but then I remind myself of what I was shown, and how I and my family has been guided ever since. It's truly strange, feeling that one is being guided through life...and humbling. The science geek part of me wants to dismiss it...but it's there. I hope you would take the time to listen to a minister of the Church (the particular Church of which I'm a member, for there's only one true Church - all others, all of whom preach false doctrines and who do not have the prophecy - are false).

Good luck in your journey!
 
BrewerBob said:
Does a Christian CHOOSE to believe Christ is the Lord? Does an atheist CHOOSE not to believe in gods? Does a Muslim CHOOSE to believe the Koran is the word of Allah? Do you CHOOSE to be liberal, libertarian, or conservative?

Obviously our beliefs CAN change. But is such a change a conscious decision or is it a more complicated, mostly subconscious, process?

I am an atheist. You could point a gun to my head and tell me to believe in God and souls and the magic of prayer or you will kill me. I may very well lie and go through the motions of a sudden conversion but in my own mind I won't actually believe.

It always struck me as strange when people convert to a different religion in order to marry someone. Does anyone really believe the convert changed what they believe rather than just going through the motions?

We can CHOOSE to be willfully ignorant. We can CHOOSE not to research or listen to information that counters our beliefs. But do we actually choose what we do believe? I doubt it. What about you?
Click to expand...

Civilization heaps all kinds of brainwashing on each of us.

Whether anyone can first shake off the brainwashing is the first question.

As to whether they could then pick and choose what to embrace depends on the answer to the first question.

If someone is pointing a gun to your head then your situational awareness was not too good or they would not have been able to get close enough.

Catholicism in the 1400's used to compel conversions of Jews. But it was mostly due to superstition.

Islam currently tries to convert by coercion however there is a lot of superstitious brainwashing involved in that effort as well.

Bertrand Russell became an atheist after seeing all the ugliness of WW1.

In his case it simply seemed Empirically obvious to him there is no God.

Certain frustrated rabbi's came to similar conclusions during the Nazi camps.

I suppose everyone has limits to their faith.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Yes...and no. There's too many variables to make any kind of generalization or determination in your question. Not only must there be access to the same level of information over the lifetimes of any particular population (and the same quality - true or false - of information), but there are issues of how different brains process that same information. For instance, there's a growing body of work showing actual biological characteristics (in the brain) that have a significant influence over whether one is liberal or conservative, and there's some indication that there may be some biological characteristics as to whether one can believe in a higher being...or not.

What's more, access to proper nutrition is a factor, and so is whether one lives in a location with political or social stability, or even the level of pollution in that location (particularly the toxicity of that pollution).

In other words, except for the possible indication of physical brain characteristics I mentioned above, there's no way for us to make a blanket determination as to what factors lead to us believing in God.

Bear in mind, now, that I am Christian. I was raised in the Deep South, was member of several different denominations, and had finally become agnostic and was on my way to becoming atheist...until I was shown something that I could not deny. As a result, I am a member of the Church of Christ. Being of a scientific bent, it's something that I have to struggle with every day...but then I remind myself of what I was shown, and how I and my family has been guided ever since. It's truly strange, feeling that one is being guided through life...and humbling. The science geek part of me wants to dismiss it...but it's there. I hope you would take the time to listen to a minister of the Church (the particular Church of which I'm a member, for there's only one true Church - all others, all of whom preach false doctrines and who do not have the prophecy - are false).

Good luck in your journey!
Click to expand...

Like you Glen I was on my own as well, and then had an amazing experience for which there was absolutely no explanation.

As a result I am happy to acknowledge that which I was compelled by being an eye witness to do.

The Powers of the Universe are unfathomable to me. However I am comfortable with recognizing that They are more powerful than we are and that They seem to have feelings too.
 
Riveroaks said:
Like you Glen I was on my own as well, and then had an amazing experience for which there was absolutely no explanation.

As a result I am happy to acknowledge that which I was compelled by being an eye witness to do.

The Powers of the Universe are unfathomable to me. However I am comfortable with recognizing that They are more powerful than we are and that They seem to have feelings too.
Click to expand...

It is humbling indeed, isn't it?

I remember back in the early 70's listening to my great-uncle describe his near-death experience (long before such was really known among the public). It was what we would today consider the "standard" story - great white light, a great desire to go to that light, and being informed in some way or another that it's not one's time yet. It's since been found that - of course - such stories are not limited to America, but are found in all nations and cultures. That's not the only such near-death experience, but it's the most common one.

That tells me that there's something on the other side, that something knows us personally, and is able to communicate with us in that moment. The common atheist argument that it's a result of oxygen deprivation or whatever cannot explain why so many who have near-death experiences - from all cultures and nations - describe that same kind of profound experience. My great-uncle had been an agnostic at best and may have been an atheist - he'd seen some hard, bitter times in his life - but after this happened, he may have remained an agnostic, but was certainly not an atheist.

I pointed all this out to my youngest son. He's like me and has a bit of a scientific bent, but he no longer questions the existence of God, or whether there is existence after death.
 
A surge of steroids, epinephrine, and adrenaline are released in the body during situations where it's near death, Parnia points out. It could explain the feeling of euphoria, and some of the stranger, hallucinatory effects. It's been suggested that Ketamine, which is released when animals are under attack, could produce similar effects. One of the first theories on near-death experiences, in fact, was that the psychedelic Dimethyltryptamine, or DMT, was released in the brain as soon as it realized it was dying, but that's somewhat speculative: The only way to really test something like that, Nelson says, is to give someone the drug and compare its effects to near-death experiences. Chemicals could very well be be a factor; it's just not an easily proven one, compared to, say, fainting and blood loss.
FYI: What Causes Near-Death Experiences? | Popular Science

Peace of Mind: Near-Death Experiences Now Found to Have Scientific Explanations - Scientific American
 
BrewerBob said:
Does a Christian CHOOSE to believe Christ is the Lord? Does an atheist CHOOSE not to believe in gods? Does a Muslim CHOOSE to believe the Koran is the word of Allah? Do you CHOOSE to be liberal, libertarian, or conservative?

Obviously our beliefs CAN change. But is such a change a conscious decision or is it a more complicated, mostly subconscious, process?

I am an atheist. You could point a gun to my head and tell me to believe in God and souls and the magic of prayer or you will kill me. I may very well lie and go through the motions of a sudden conversion but in my own mind I won't actually believe.

It always struck me as strange when people convert to a different religion in order to marry someone. Does anyone really believe the convert changed what they believe rather than just going through the motions?

We can CHOOSE to be willfully ignorant. We can CHOOSE not to research or listen to information that counters our beliefs. But do we actually choose what we do believe? I doubt it. What about you?
Click to expand...

Your beliefs are a function of your knowledge. You can choose to ignore or accept knowledge that would lead your beliefs to change.
 
Nilly said:
Your beliefs are a function of your knowledge. You can choose to ignore or accept knowledge that would lead your beliefs to change.
Click to expand...

But can you really?

So far, no "knowledge" that has been imparted upon me would lead me to believe that there is a God, as explained by religion.

As noted by the OP, if someone told me to believe in God right now or they were going to put a bullet in my brain, the best I would be able to come up with is that I understand that I may not be knowledgeable enough to say as fact and without uncertainty that there is no such thing as God. However, I don't believe that there is one. Pointing a gun to my head wouldn't fundamentally change that belief.
 
Can we choose what we believe?
Click to expand...

Yes. It is called lying.

It requires a deep sytematic self hypnosis. Also a rejection of the real world and of honesty.

These things are the primary drivers of the attraction of religion to people. Within a religion they are free to do as they please and forget the "sins" quickly, whilst having a gross level or external respectability. All the fun with none of the disgrace.
 
Critter7r said:
But can you really?

So far, no "knowledge" that has been imparted upon me would lead me to believe that there is a God, as explained by religion.

As noted by the OP, if someone told me to believe in God right now or they were going to put a bullet in my brain, the best I would be able to come up with is that I understand that I may not be knowledgeable enough to say as fact and without uncertainty that there is no such thing as God. However, I don't believe that there is one. Pointing a gun to my head wouldn't fundamentally change that belief.
Click to expand...

Ok and if we found falsifiable evidence of a being would you ignore that knowledge or would you accept it in and allow it to influence your beliefs?

Imagine if you didn't know dinosaurs existed. And if someone told you to believe in dinos right now or they would put a bullet in your brain you wouldn't be able to say you believe in dinosaurs just like that. But now you are presented with the fossil record, it's fairly easy to believe that dinosaurs existed.
 
BrewerBob said:
Does a Christian CHOOSE to believe Christ is the Lord? Does an atheist CHOOSE not to believe in gods? Does a Muslim CHOOSE to believe the Koran is the word of Allah? Do you CHOOSE to be liberal, libertarian, or conservative?

Obviously our beliefs CAN change. But is such a change a conscious decision or is it a more complicated, mostly subconscious, process?

I am an atheist. You could point a gun to my head and tell me to believe in God and souls and the magic of prayer or you will kill me. I may very well lie and go through the motions of a sudden conversion but in my own mind I won't actually believe.

It always struck me as strange when people convert to a different religion in order to marry someone. Does anyone really believe the convert changed what they believe rather than just going through the motions?

We can CHOOSE to be willfully ignorant. We can CHOOSE not to research or listen to information that counters our beliefs. But do we actually choose what we do believe? I doubt it. What about you?
Click to expand...

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day." - Jesus, John 6:44

Of course, a lot of people fight it, and the end result is that they are lost.
 
Nilly said:
Ok and if we found falsifiable evidence of a being would you ignore that knowledge or would you accept it in and allow it to influence your beliefs?
Click to expand...

If you mean "verifiable", then yes. If some evidence that could be tested were to surface, then I would allow it to influence my beliefs. Much like I allow any other beliefs that I hold (that aren't God related) to be influenced by new information.

Imagine if you didn't know dinosaurs existed. And if someone told you to believe in dinos right now or they would put a bullet in your brain you wouldn't be able to say you believe in dinosaurs just like that. But now you are presented with the fossil record, it's fairly easy to believe that dinosaurs existed.
Click to expand...

Right.

So when some fossil evidence of God is found, I'll believe.
 
Critter7r said:
If you mean "verifiable", then yes. If some evidence that could be tested were to surface, then I would allow it to influence my beliefs. Much like I allow any other beliefs that I hold (that aren't God related) to be influenced by new information.


Right.

So when some fossil evidence of God is found, I'll believe.
Click to expand...

Precisely. I think we're on the same page.

This thread isn't explicitly about gods though, it could be about any belief. When it comes to God, we don't even know what verifiable falsifiable evidence would even be though. A message in the stars? A shared dream the whole world experienced? That's no more evidence for God than it is a race of super powerful aliens.
 
Critter7r said:
If you mean "verifiable", then yes. If some evidence that could be tested were to surface, then I would allow it to influence my beliefs. Much like I allow any other beliefs that I hold (that aren't God related) to be influenced by new information.



Right.

So when some fossil evidence of God is found, I'll believe.
Click to expand...

Thousands of years and still not one shred of evidence.
 
BrewerBob said:
Does a Christian CHOOSE to believe Christ is the Lord? Does an atheist CHOOSE not to believe in gods? Does a Muslim CHOOSE to believe the Koran is the word of Allah? Do you CHOOSE to be liberal, libertarian, or conservative?

Obviously our beliefs CAN change. But is such a change a conscious decision or is it a more complicated, mostly subconscious, process?

I am an atheist. You could point a gun to my head and tell me to believe in God and souls and the magic of prayer or you will kill me. I may very well lie and go through the motions of a sudden conversion but in my own mind I won't actually believe.

It always struck me as strange when people convert to a different religion in order to marry someone. Does anyone really believe the convert changed what they believe rather than just going through the motions?

We can CHOOSE to be willfully ignorant. We can CHOOSE not to research or listen to information that counters our beliefs. But do we actually choose what we do believe? I doubt it. What about you?
Click to expand...


Why are you an atheist ?
 
zyzygy said:
Thousands of years and still not one shred of evidence.
Click to expand...

Except in the changed lives of believers.

In answer to the OP's question, I do emphatically believe that one chooses what to believe or reject. This is why some people as adults "fall away" while others who were reared as secularists become folks of faith.
 
Risky Thicket said:
Most people on earth are socialized into their beliefs. It is most certainly that way in the U.S. You believe or not as your parents and their parents and your friends and their friends and your neighbors and so on. The beliefs are reinforced from the earliest of life.

That's changing now in the U.S. as more and more Americans are turning away from organized religions.
Click to expand...

Americans may be turning away from organized religions but one definition of religion is simply a system of values that people hold onto with faith and ardor. I see no lessening of American religious fanaticism, it is just being redirected toward political issues. When only 10% marry outside of their political viewpoint, political faith has replaced organized religion faith.
 
Eric7216 said:
Americans may be turning away from organized religions but one definition of religion is simply a system of values that people hold onto with faith and ardor. I see no lessening of American religious fanaticism, it is just being redirected toward political issues. When only 10% marry outside of their political viewpoint, political faith has replaced organized religion faith.
Click to expand...

That's something to think about and I will. I can't say that I disagree. Good post.
 
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