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Do unhappy spouses have an obligation to not divorce once kids are born?

Do spouses have a obligation to stay married if there are kids, bar major problems.

  • Yes. Forcing someone to become a single parent is so unfair.

    Votes: 2 9.5%

  • No. Everyone has the right to pursue their own happiness regadles of previous commitments.

    Votes: 9 42.9%

  • Other. Explain

    Votes: 10 47.6%
  • Total voters
    21
Will be celebrating our 40th anniversary in a month but have undergone the trauma of having two children being divorced. Was not expecting that type of trauma. I guess that I thought after raising our children to adulthood they were on their own for the most part.

In both cases, our sons were surprised by their wife's decision to leave. In the more recent case, our son went off to Afghanistan. We, the parents, thought everything was perfectly fine. After about 5 months of deployment we started hearing things. Nothing big at the time. And a month before his return he was told that she wanted a separation and that she was "over him" about 7 months earlier. Nice to tell him. He was devastated. Would have done anything for her. They have a daughter, aged 2 1/2 at the time.

In the old days, there had to be something serious. Incarceration, mental illness, abandonment. Major issues. Now it is simply that one person hopes for something more.

I guess that I sound bitter. I am just a father, worried about his son and how he will treat the next woman in his life. Hopefully he will continue to make an effort and not follow a self absorbed path.

I suspect that there are people (women, usually) in a similar situation who honestly believe that they have told their partners that they were unhappy and that the partner should have known. I remember a Robert Fulghum line about a lump in your oatmeal is not the same as a lump in your throat and is not the same as a lump in your breast. All lumps aren't the same. Perhaps your partner thinks you are complaining about lumpy oatmeal when you are complaining about something more. Communicate.
 
cpwill said:
However, I have to point out that the stats on children of divorce show a much starker reality than "eh it'll be better for them" (not accusing you of arguing that, but speaking to the highlighted). Children of divorce do worse than children whose parents stay together on almost every single important metric.
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When you look at the population as a whole, yeah, but what we are saying is that there are conditions, such as abuse or even just verbal battling without resolve that can end up making things worse for kids. I'm willing to bet that there isn't any studies that compare parents who stay together and have the battling/abuse and similar families where the parents separated.
 
Eric7216 said:
Will be celebrating our 40th anniversary in a month but have undergone the trauma of having two children being divorced. Was not expecting that type of trauma. I guess that I thought after raising our children to adulthood they were on their own for the most part.

In both cases, our sons were surprised by their wife's decision to leave. In the more recent case, our son went off to Afghanistan. We, the parents, thought everything was perfectly fine. After about 5 months of deployment we started hearing things. Nothing big at the time. And a month before his return he was told that she wanted a separation and that she was "over him" about 7 months earlier. Nice to tell him. He was devastated. Would have done anything for her. They have a daughter, aged 2 1/2 at the time.

In the old days, there had to be something serious. Incarceration, mental illness, abandonment. Major issues. Now it is simply that one person hopes for something more.

I guess that I sound bitter. I am just a father, worried about his son and how he will treat the next woman in his life. Hopefully he will continue to make an effort and not follow a self absorbed path.

I suspect that there are people (women, usually) in a similar situation who honestly believe that they have told their partners that they were unhappy and that the partner should have known. I remember a Robert Fulghum line about a lump in your oatmeal is not the same as a lump in your throat and is not the same as a lump in your breast. All lumps aren't the same. Perhaps your partner thinks you are complaining about lumpy oatmeal when you are complaining about something more. Communicate.
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Wow, 40 years! That is amazing. Good work. I can barely keep a relationship going to 40 days. You must be very dedicated, that is very admirable. Sorry about your two sons, especially the one who was in Afghanistan. That is terrible. I hope he can trust another woman in a relationship again.
 
Paleocon said:
That which is not permanent is temporary
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As noted before, if one needs a vow of "til death do you part" to make it permanent, then there are already problems in the relationship.

Yes.
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Ah well should one ever die and then later be revived, problem solved, or maybe not. Since the marriage is no longer in effect, having been instantly dissolved, now they'll be living in sin!
 
Eric7216 said:
Will be celebrating our 40th anniversary in a month but have undergone the trauma of having two children being divorced. Was not expecting that type of trauma. I guess that I thought after raising our children to adulthood they were on their own for the most part.

In both cases, our sons were surprised by their wife's decision to leave. In the more recent case, our son went off to Afghanistan. We, the parents, thought everything was perfectly fine. After about 5 months of deployment we started hearing things. Nothing big at the time. And a month before his return he was told that she wanted a separation and that she was "over him" about 7 months earlier. Nice to tell him. He was devastated. Would have done anything for her. They have a daughter, aged 2 1/2 at the time.

In the old days, there had to be something serious. Incarceration, mental illness, abandonment. Major issues. Now it is simply that one person hopes for something more.

I guess that I sound bitter. I am just a father, worried about his son and how he will treat the next woman in his life. Hopefully he will continue to make an effort and not follow a self absorbed path.

I suspect that there are people (women, usually) in a similar situation who honestly believe that they have told their partners that they were unhappy and that the partner should have known. I remember a Robert Fulghum line about a lump in your oatmeal is not the same as a lump in your throat and is not the same as a lump in your breast. All lumps aren't the same. Perhaps your partner thinks you are complaining about lumpy oatmeal when you are complaining about something more. Communicate.
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Wow. All I can say is her loss. That whole attitude IMHO so devalues a person's worth.
 
maquiscat said:
As noted before, if one needs a vow of "til death do you part" to make it permanent, then there are already problems in the relationship.
Click to expand...

So permanence is part of it?

Ah well should one ever die and then later be revived, problem solved, or maybe not. Since the marriage is no longer in effect, having been instantly dissolved, now they'll be living in sin!
Click to expand...

An impossible hypothetical proves exactly nothing.
 
roguenuke said:
You are trying to judge for someone else what is right for them, what is doing right by them. It shouldn't be your judgement to make, but theirs.
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I'm fine saying what is right and wrong - and so are you. See, for example, anything that you think is wrong that others do. (Whether it be breaking in line, spitting on veterans, or beating ones child senseless). What you have raised here is a straw man.
 
roguenuke said:
Stats don't show individual situations though. It doesn't show all the aspects that go into the situations, the divorces. Maybe if we tried different approaches to children of divorce or even before that, of unhappy marriages, then we could help children do better even if their parents do divorce.
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Stats are the aggregate of individual situations, and they show quite clearly that the vast majority of parents who think that The Kids Will Be Better Off are wrong, to their children's detriment.

Children suffer from divorce. The question is: is your spouse abusing them to the point where, in a divorce, they would suffer less.
 
As much as I am aware of the horrible effects of single parent households are, statistically speaking, when it comes to my life and my happiness I don't care.

I don't believe in an afterlife, this is the only one I have and I wont waste it for ANYONE.
 
Smeagol said:
Wow. All I can say is her loss. That whole attitude IMHO so devalues a person's worth.
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Happens a lot to the military guys. Guaranteed alimony, benefits, child support... Women target service members.
 
Paleocon said:
So permanence is part of it?
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That's the plan and intent for all four of us. But should something happen, no vows will be broken. It's as simple as that. I have found over the years that the law next lasting and best marriages are the ones where there is the possibility of losing the spouse.

An impossible hypothetical proves exactly nothing.
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What's impossible about it. You yourself stated that death brings about the dissolution of the marriage and there are many documented case of people dying and then being brought back to life. Therefore should one die and then be revived, their marriage is gone, by your own admission.
 
maquiscat said:
What's impossible about it. You yourself stated that death brings about the dissolution of the marriage and there are many documented case of people dying and then being brought back to life. Therefore should one die and then be revived, their marriage is gone, by your own admission.
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No, there are many documented cases of people almost dying, being wrongfully declared dead, but surviving. That has anything to do with anything here.
 
cpwill said:
Stats are the aggregate of individual situations, and they show quite clearly that the vast majority of parents who think that The Kids Will Be Better Off are wrong, to their children's detriment.

Children suffer from divorce. The question is: is your spouse abusing them to the point where, in a divorce, they would suffer less.
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They don't show what you claim. They only show that the divorce was hard on them. We don't know if those children would have brought down the stats for married couples though since their parents divorced.
 
roguenuke said:
They don't show what you claim. They only show that the divorce was hard on them. We don't know if those children would have brought down the stats for married couples though since their parents divorced.
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:shrug: I feel fairly comfortable with the assumption that parents getting divorced tell themselves the kids will be fine. If you have anything that shows I'm wrong, and that they know they are harming their kids, but don't care enough not to divorce, I'd be interested in seeing it.
 
cpwill said:
:shrug: I feel fairly comfortable with the assumption that parents getting divorced tell themselves the kids will be fine. If you have anything that shows I'm wrong, and that they know they are harming their kids, but don't care enough not to divorce, I'd be interested in seeing it.
Click to expand...

I'll add that some kids will be just fine over the long term but many won't. You can trace many if not most of society's ill to being forced to grow up in a single parent home and especially absentee fathers. Everything from rates of incarceration to low educational outcomes to statistics on teen pregnancy to rates of childhood molestation are all exponentially worse for kids who due to no fault of their own have parents who did no create a traditional family environment. They typically justified that choice because their prioritized pursuing what their believed would be in the interest of their own happiness and/or defining love based on superficial emotions.
 
Eric7216 said:
Will be celebrating our 40th anniversary in a month but have undergone the trauma of having two children being divorced. Was not expecting that type of trauma. I guess that I thought after raising our children to adulthood they were on their own for the most part.

In both cases, our sons were surprised by their wife's decision to leave. In the more recent case, our son went off to Afghanistan. We, the parents, thought everything was perfectly fine. After about 5 months of deployment we started hearing things. Nothing big at the time. And a month before his return he was told that she wanted a separation and that she was "over him" about 7 months earlier. Nice to tell him. He was devastated. Would have done anything for her. They have a daughter, aged 2 1/2 at the time.

In the old days, there had to be something serious. Incarceration, mental illness, abandonment. Major issues. Now it is simply that one person hopes for something more.

I guess that I sound bitter. I am just a father, worried about his son and how he will treat the next woman in his life. Hopefully he will continue to make an effort and not follow a self absorbed path.

I suspect that there are people (women, usually) in a similar situation who honestly believe that they have told their partners that they were unhappy and that the partner should have known. I remember a Robert Fulghum line about a lump in your oatmeal is not the same as a lump in your throat and is not the same as a lump in your breast. All lumps aren't the same. Perhaps your partner thinks you are complaining about lumpy oatmeal when you are complaining about something more. Communicate.
Click to expand...

So sorry to read about you sons divorces.

But your lat paragraph is great advice.

Communicate....
As a mother of 4 grown children and a woman who has been happily married for over 40 years to the love of my life, I cannot stress communication enough.

Three of children are married and besides communication I stressed to them that they should never think of marriage as a 50/50
partnership.

Marriage for my husband and I is a 90/90 relationship.
90 percent of the time if I know an activity or something is important to my husband I will back him up and support him.
90 percent of the time he knows an activity or something is important to me , he will back me and support me.

The other 10 percent of the time we work it out.

Rough patches happen in life ours was when we were in in our 30s ,( in the early 80s with a brand new house and lots high mortgage, two teens , a toddler and a baby when a recession hit Michigan quite hard.

A rough year but we worked it out for ourselves and for the kids.

My advice give your marriage your best shot because the silver years when the kids are grown and on their own are the best yet.
 
Smeagol said:
I'll add that some kids will be just fine over the long term but many won't. You can trace many if not most of society's ill to being forced to grow up in a single parent home and especially absentee fathers. Everything from rates of incarceration to low educational outcomes to statistics on teen pregnancy to rates of childhood molestation are all exponentially worse for kids who due to no fault of their own have parents who did no create a traditional family environment. They typically justified that choice because their prioritized pursuing what their believed would be in the interest of their own happiness and/or defining love based on superficial emotions.
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:( both the social science and I would concur. And I would point out that the children are further damaged because their ability to form stable marriages in the future is sharply reduced, causing a self-feeding cycle.
 
cpwill said:
:( both the social science and I would concur. And I would point out that the children are further damaged because their ability to form stable marriages in the future is sharply reduced, causing a self-feeding cycle.
Click to expand...

The numbers don't lie. Go to any prison and ask the inmates about their parents. "What's a dad?" Go to any school and ask teachers about the family environment of the students who perform at the lowest levels. Talk to teen moms and ask about their parents. Thankfully, there are exceptions. We even have a President that overcame the odds who is now one of the few positive role-models many inner-city kids can look to as an example of a great husband an father (an opportunity my conservative friends don't herald, which ticks me off, but that's another topic.)
 
Smeagol said:
The numbers don't lie. Go to any prison and ask the inmates about their parents. "What's a dad?" Go to any school and ask teachers about the family environment of the students who perform at the lowest levels. Talk to teen moms and ask about their parents. Thankfully, there are exceptions. We even have a President that overcame the odds who is now one of the few positive role-models many inner-city kids can look to as an example of a great husband an father (an opportunity my conservative friends don't herald, which ticks me off, but that's another topic.)
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A lot of conservatives hoped that he would actively do so, and are disappointed that he didn't.
 
Smeagol said:
The numbers don't lie. Go to any prison and ask the inmates about their parents. "What's a dad?" Go to any school and ask teachers about the family environment of the students who perform at the lowest levels. Talk to teen moms and ask about their parents. Thankfully, there are exceptions. We even have a President that overcame the odds who is now one of the few positive role-models many inner-city kids can look to as an example of a great husband an father (an opportunity my conservative friends don't herald, which ticks me off, but that's another topic.)
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You're talking about single parents, which isn't necessarily divorced parents. There is a difference. It also likely is one parent not in the child's life or in it so infrequently that it is a disruption rather than a help. Those are issues all in themselves.
 
Alyssa T. said:
Oh my gosh. Some of this stuff is pretty difficult to read. My eyes just keep rolling. Anyway, if a married couple is having a hard time they need to go seek counseling. Chances are, depending on the circumstances, it will be best for the child or children if the parents do not stay together. The therapist or social worker can help the couple make whatever decisions they need to for the best of all involved.

There is no shame in seeking help. Especially when it could really improve the quality of life of everyone in that situation.
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My comment here:
calamity said:
Deadbeats, cheaters, liars....sure, someone who is not making an effort is someone who is probably doing more harm than good for the kids anyway.
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certainly does not fault the parent who wishes to leave the deadbeat, cheater, etc. The comment is actually a reprimand on the deadbeat, cheater, liar, drunk, druggie, or abuser. Unfortunately, it takes two to make a marriage work, and if one party is so wrapped up in self-indulgent behavior that the marriage disintegrates, my thoughts are that they do not make a good parent anyway. So, divorcing him/her is probably the best option, which I believe was what Roguenuke implied with the response to my earlier post.

What I find abhorrent is the number of people who have children but do not do all they can to ensure those children have a fair chance at success in this evermore complicated society. It's a huge handicap for a kid to have dysfunction in the home, be the parents divorced or not.
 
calamity said:
My comment here:


certainly does not fault the parent who wishes to leave the deadbeat, cheater, etc. The comment is actually a reprimand on the deadbeat, cheater, liar, drunk, druggie, or abuser. Unfortunately, it takes two to make a marriage work, and if one party is so wrapped up in self-indulgent behavior that the marriage disintegrates, my thoughts are that they do not make a good parent anyway. So, divorcing him/her is probably the best option, which I believe was what Roguenuke implied with the response to my earlier post.

What I find abhorrent is the number of people who have children but do not do all they can to ensure those children have a fair chance at success in this evermore complicated society. It's a huge handicap for a kid to have dysfunction in the home, be the parents divorced or not.
Click to expand...

That's pretty much it. It could be that one spouse is trying to make it work but the other is simply content with the status quo, the way the marriage is and has no interest in changing but it puts a huge burden on the other spouse, the other parent, whether it is in parenting, cleaning, working, or whatever, it isn't selfish to expect a certain amount of effort from a spouse in the relationship and to not stick around if that effort isn't there, even with children involved.
 
roguenuke said:
You're talking about single parents, which isn't necessarily divorced parents. There is a difference. It also likely is one parent not in the child's life or in it so infrequently that it is a disruption rather than a help. Those are issues all in themselves.
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It needs to be taken further than that. For what we are talking about we need to look only at marriages with the abuse and strife and see whether the kids are doing better when the parents separate or stay together. We already know that as a rule, looking over everyone as a whole, kids do better in intact families with two or more parents present. But we're now arguing the overall. We're saying that this is a demographic that would be better served by going the opposite of the rule.

and in case it isn't clear, this is me expanding on your point, not arguing against it.
 
roguenuke said:
That's pretty much it. It could be that one spouse is trying to make it work but the other is simply content with the status quo, the way the marriage is and has no interest in changing but it puts a huge burden on the other spouse, the other parent, whether it is in parenting, cleaning, working, or whatever, it isn't selfish to expect a certain amount of effort from a spouse in the relationship and to not stick around if that effort isn't there, even with children involved.
Click to expand...

I can't imagine anything worse than pulling the whole load while the other partner self-indulges or exercises destructive behavior. If there are no kids involved, the decision to leave is relatively easy. However, when children are involved, it is so much harder to make that choice.

Making it all worse, at some point staying with such a partner is simply enabling that behavior. It also convey the wrong message to the child. The kid grows up to believe codependent relationships are normal. So, stay for the sake of the kids or leave for their (and your own) sake...neither choice is a good one.
 
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