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Do you consider the killing of animals murder?

Riveroaks said:
Exactly !!

Many arrogant humans simply assume that they themselves are so smart and are the only ones who have souls.

That assumption is as base as the early philosophical arguments that assumed the Earth was at the center of the Universe because of Aristotle.
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check out Anna Breytenbach...she is an animal communicator and is very gifted...I told my vet about her and to check her out on Youtube and he said he has used one before when circumstances have warranted it
 
_Sal said:
check out Anna Breytenbach...she is an animal communicator and is very gifted...I told my vet about her and to check her out on Youtube and he said he has used one before when circumstances have warranted it
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I think everyone needs a dog and a cat.

These animals are very communicative. Especially the cats -- IF they like you.
 
Riveroaks said:
I think everyone needs a dog and a cat.

These animals are very communicative. Especially the cats -- IF they like you.
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I have always had an animal my whole life...someone always finds a way to adopt me

this one I currently have is the most loving little thing ever although she is destroying my carpet one claw at a time...she is big on being carried around although not a lap cat nor one to sleep much on the bed although she is on the bed by 5:40 every morning to wake me up...she won't take no for an answer...she runs to her bowl to make sure the food is there and then walks away...never eats it then...little bugger

I love animals and think some are way more worthy of breathing air than some people
 
_Sal said:
I have always had an animal my whole life...someone always finds a way to adopt me

this one I currently have is the most loving little thing ever although she is destroying my carpet one claw at a time...she is big on being carried around although not a lap cat nor one to sleep much on the bed although she is on the bed by 5:40 every morning to wake me up...she won't take no for an answer...she runs to her bowl to make sure the food is there and then walks away...never eats it then...little bugger

I love animals and think some are way more worthy of breathing air than some people
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One day 3 years ago a calico Angora kitten was on my back patio meowing. She was the oldest in her litter, as I later found out.

I got a can of tuna (being a life long athlete and jock I always keep tuna around for snacking -- a classic weightlifter's and bodybuilder's snack) and opened it and put it on a plate for her. She relished it.

Suddenly her twin sister also appeared, so I got another can and opened it. They both relished it.

Suddenly again their orange tabby brother appeared, so I opened yet another can.

Finally their American Shorthair Snowshoe momma cat appeared, but she would not eat tuna.

Next day I went to the store and bought the most expensive premium kibbles that I could find, and more tuna.

I fed it to them, and it was the momma cat who preferred the kibbles.

Hint: she was an abandoned or escaped fertile domestic cat.

The kittens all 3 preferred the tuna.

So then I went to a local Pet Smart and bought a palate of mixed canned cat foods.

All the kittens loved all of it, except momma cat, who would only eat kibbles.

Eventually the momma cat and the orange tabby disappeared, but the twin calico Angora's stayed.

Over the next 2 years they both had 30 kittens.

I kept the most beautiful white Angora from all of them, and took the other 29 to the Humane Society cat rescue. They found homes for each of them.

It took me 2 years to catch the calico females and have them spayed.

Problem solved.

They are all 3 my pets now.

The white kitten I named Snowball (one of the top 10 names apparently for American cats).

The 4 of us go on walks together now. They follow me. Angora's are known for the dog like behavior of vocalizing and following you.

They are smarter than a lot of people that I know.
 
Riveroaks said:
My cat has an understanding of what it means to be dead or alive because he goes out of his way to avoid cars, trucks, and dogs.

He generally avoids people also, except for me. He loves me and asks me to provide everything he wants -- like food, warmth, companionship, shelter, protection, and play time outside.

I am getting the impression that you know nothing about other mammals.
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I've already discussed this but I'll try again. This kind of behavior is not indicative that your cat has any conception of death. Why? Because an animal evolved to experience a fear response to large fast-moving bodies and/or predators without having any conception of death would exhibit the exact same kind of behaviors. It is not necessary to know what the self is or what death means or to feel fear of death in order to feel fear in response to these things.

Like I said - look at the mirror tests. I doubt your cat has any conception of self. In which case it couldn't possibly have any conception of the death of itself.
 
the_recruit said:
I've already discussed this but I'll try again. This kind of behavior is not indicative that your cat has any conception of death. Why? Because an animal evolved to experience a fear response to large fast-moving bodies and/or predators without having any conception of death would exhibit the exact same kind of behaviors. It is not necessary to know what the self is or what death means or to feel fear of death in order to feel fear in response to these things.

Like I said - look at the mirror tests. I doubt your cat has any conception of self. In which case it couldn't possibly have any conception of the death of itself.
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It seems to me that a lot of humans conceive of themselves as superior to other mammals out of some need to feel superior.

Whereas on the other hand I see no evidence that there is any difference at all between any of the mammal species and humans.

All avoid danger, so they must have a concept of death.

All care for their young, so they must have a concept of love.

All plan, scheme, strategize, and remember, so they must have a concept of mind.

It is a very primitive ancient philosophy which presumes thing about animals that we cannot know -- sort of like assuming the Earth is at the center of the Universe simply because that seems like the best place for it to be.
 
Riveroaks said:
One day 3 years ago a calico Angora kitten was on my back patio meowing. She was the oldest in her litter, as I later found out.

I got a can of tuna (being a life long athlete and jock I always keep tuna around for snacking -- a classic weightlifter's and bodybuilder's snack) and opened it and put it on a plate for her. She relished it.

Suddenly her twin sister also appeared, so I got another can and opened it. They both relished it.

Suddenly again their orange tabby brother appeared, so I opened yet another can.

Finally their American Shorthair Snowshoe momma cat appeared, but she would not eat tuna.

Next day I went to the store and bought the most expensive premium kibbles that I could find, and more tuna.

I fed it to them, and it was the momma cat who preferred the kibbles.

Hint: she was an abandoned or escaped fertile domestic cat.

The kittens all 3 preferred the tuna.

So then I went to a local Pet Smart and bought a palate of mixed canned cat foods.

All the kittens loved all of it, except momma cat, who would only eat kibbles.

Eventually the momma cat and the orange tabby disappeared, but the twin calico Angora's stayed.

Over the next 2 years they both had 30 kittens.

I kept the most beautiful white Angora from all of them, and took the other 29 to the Humane Society cat rescue. They found homes for each of them.

It took me 2 years to catch the calico females and have them spayed.

Problem solved.

They are all 3 my pets now.

The white kitten I named Snowball (one of the top 10 names apparently for American cats).

The 4 of us go on walks together now. They follow me. Angora's are known for the dog like behavior of vocalizing and following you.

They are smarter than a lot of people that I know.
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that is a beautiful story...I love it...thanks

you may have also solved a bit of a mystery for me regarding my kitty...she vocalizes constantly, it's on-going like she is carrying on a complete conversation ...she will also sit in the kitchen and do a sit-up beg for a treat, and when she escapes will usually return on command and walk back beside me like a dog...she is long haired and when I got her had a tail twice her size...so thanks to you I looked up angora and there she is (sort of). She isn't white she is black and white and obviously a mix of whatever but those traits are very strong in her

she is also an attention whore and will leap into arms or try to crawl up if she is ignored.... after asking and asking and asking to be picked up, she just jumps

she must have angora in her

thanks again
 
_Sal said:
that is a beautiful story...I love it...thanks

you may have also solved a bit of a mystery for me regarding my kitty...she vocalizes constantly, it's on-going like she is carrying on a complete conversation ...she will also sit in the kitchen and do a sit-up beg for a treat, and when she escapes will usually return on command and walk back beside me like a dog...she is long haired and when I got her had a tail twice her size...so thanks to you I looked up angora and there she is (sort of). She isn't white she is black and white and obviously a mix of whatever but those traits are very strong in her

she is also an attention whore and will leap into arms or try to crawl up if she is ignored.... after asking and asking and asking to be picked up, she just jumps

she must have angora in her

thanks again
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You are lucky to have such a nice cat !!

They seem to vocalize whenever they want something, whether attention or companionship or food or to be let outside.

They vocalize to humans and to other cats that they have befriended.

Otherwise they hiss and growl at cats they are unfriendly towards.

When my cat does not want to be picked up he also growls at me.

If I force him, then he will hiss and dart away.

They seem to understand that size means power. Thus they run away from superior force.

My cat wakes me every morning around 5 a.m. wanting to be let out of the bedroom and into the dining room where the kibbles feeder is.

The next thing he vocalizes is wanting to be let outside to play, chase squirrels, birds, moths, and flies -- his favorite recreation. It is also a source of vitamin filled fresh bloody meat. Whatever he catches he will eat half of it and bring me the other half.

The next thing he vocalizes is wanting to be let back inside. Then he will nap in his usual high perch where he feels safe.

The next thing he vocalizes is when he wants human company. That usually means petting or brushing or combing or just being curled up near.

So these Angora and Siamese derivative cats seem to be very vocal and they express their feelings at the moment. Not all of their feelings are instincts obviously. Whereas hunger is clearly an instinct, play or companionship are not.

I did not socialize the cat with other humans, so he only lets me get near him, then he verbalizes to reinforce our bond. I get to pet him, pick him up, or carry him. Nobody else is allowed close. So this is an issue of trust versus uncertainty. Thus cats obviously think and make judgments.

Anyone who owns an Angora or a Siamese is very lucky. Although any playful cat is a delight.
 
Riveroaks said:
You are lucky to have such a nice cat !!

They seem to vocalize whenever they want something, whether attention or companionship or food or to be let outside.

They vocalize to humans and to other cats that they have befriended.

Otherwise they hiss and growl at cats they are unfriendly towards.

When my cat does not want to be picked up he also growls at me.

If I force him, then he will hiss and dart away.

They seem to understand that size means power. Thus they run away from superior force.

My cat wakes me every morning around 5 a.m. wanting to be let out of the bedroom and into the dining room where the kibbles feeder is.

The next thing he vocalizes is wanting to be let outside to play, chase squirrels, birds, moths, and flies -- his favorite recreation. It is also a source of vitamin filled fresh bloody meat. Whatever he catches he will eat half of it and bring me the other half.

The next thing he vocalizes is wanting to be let back inside. Then he will nap in his usual high perch where he feels safe.

The next thing he vocalizes is when he wants human company. That usually means petting or brushing or combing or just being curled up near.

So these Angora and Siamese derivative cats seem to be very vocal and they express their feelings at the moment. Not all of their feelings are instincts obviously. Whereas hunger is clearly an instinct, play or companionship are not.

I did not socialize the cat with other humans, so he only lets me get near him, then he verbalizes to reinforce our bond. I get to pet him, pick him up, or carry him. Nobody else is allowed close. So this is an issue of trust versus uncertainty. Thus cats obviously think and make judgments.

Anyone who owns an Angora or a Siamese is very lucky. Although any playful cat is a delight.
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ah your cat does sound like a delightful boy

my cat is human-friendly (it's the attention whore part) but runs from other animals even friendly ones, if I am holding her though she does not display aggression only curiosity......if she escapes out into the hall and someone has their door open she's in and exploring if at all possible, not shy at all...very dog like...once she has been in and had a friendly response to her she goes back repeatedly and peers under their door vocalizing her desire to visit

I love all animals and respect them.
 
_Sal said:
ah your cat does sound like a delightful boy

my cat is human-friendly (it's the attention whore part) but runs from other animals even friendly ones, if I am holding her though she does not display aggression only curiosity......if she escapes out into the hall and someone has their door open she's in and exploring if at all possible, not shy at all...very dog like...once she has been in and had a friendly response to her she goes back repeatedly and peers under their door vocalizing her desire to visit

I love all animals and respect them.
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It sounds like your cat has been normally socialized around several people -- a family.

Mine has not.
 
Riveroaks said:
It sounds like your cat has been normally socialized around several people -- a family.

Mine has not.
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yes I believe you are correct although I know nothing of her past and obviously she wasn't chipped or she would have made her way back when they checked her

she has no fear of people so I think who ever she owned previously treated her well...I doubt she has even ever been accidentely dropped because when you are carrying her (which is her main goal through the day) she will squirm into different positions which are unsafe...she just figures you will make allowance for her new angle
 
_Sal said:
yes I believe you are correct although I know nothing of her past and obviously she wasn't chipped or she would have made her way back when they checked her

she has no fear of people so I think who ever she owned previously treated her well...I doubt she has even ever been accidentely dropped because when you are carrying her (which is her main goal through the day) she will squirm into different positions which are unsafe...she just figures you will make allowance for her new angle
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A happy kitty like that probably got lost somehow. Very sad for the previous owners. They are probably heartbroken.
 
JC Callender said:
Why should some animals get preferential treatment over others?
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because some animals can conceive of their own death. some can actually experience real fear of the unknown and true existential pain. those animals deserve special treatment because they are harmed in a way that less intelligent animals are not. the vast majority of animals, however, are not self aware (from what we can tell) and can be killed in such a way so as not to cause any pain whatsoever or any damage to their species. not to say that the vast majority of meat that we eat isn't killed that way, but the point is that it is possible to ethically eat certain animals.
 
Riveroaks said:
It seems to me that a lot of humans conceive of themselves as superior to other mammals out of some need to feel superior.

Whereas on the other hand I see no evidence that there is any difference at all between any of the mammal species and humans.

All avoid danger, so they must have a concept of death.

All care for their young, so they must have a concept of love.

All plan, scheme, strategize, and remember, so they must have a concept of mind.

It is a very primitive ancient philosophy which presumes thing about animals that we cannot know -- sort of like assuming the Earth is at the center of the Universe simply because that seems like the best place for it to be.
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it isn't primitive. it is a subject which has been studied scientifically and very recently as well. of course there is no way to know what is really going on in any other sentient being's mind, but there are certain experiments we can try that have different results with different species:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test
 
JC Callender said:
Do you consider it murder when someone purposely kills an animal? The question is intended for evolutionists but anyone can feel free to answer.
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Murder is a legal term relating to the unlawful killing of another human, so no.
 
JC Callender said:
Do you consider it murder when someone purposely kills an animal? The question is intended for evolutionists but anyone can feel free to answer.
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Well, no. Murder is a legal word with a legal definition. Not even all killing of humans is murder. And no killing of an animal is murder.

However, I do find killing animals without need to be unethical. It is natural for us to kill animals for sustenance, warmth, tools, perhaps sometimes self-defence, like it is for any living thing.

But these days, superior alternatives exist for some of those things, and ethical means of raising and killing are possible for the rest. I don't find it acceptable that we torture animals raised for our uses to the extent we do. I don't find it acceptable that we kill an animal because some tiny piece of them is worth money (but completely unnecessary) and simply waste the rest. I don't find it acceptable to disrespect the lives of other things for absolutely no reason or need.

And in the long run, it's not good for us either. Even if you don't care at all about the suffering of anything non-human, then you should at least care about the fact that we require this environment in order to live, and when we wantonly kill or poison things without regard for the impact, we endanger ourselves too.
 
JC Callender said:
Do you consider it murder when someone purposely kills an animal? The question is intended for evolutionists but anyone can feel free to answer.
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There I was last night, kicking back, and stroking one of my cats, who was sitting on my lap. Then the cat farted.

Let me tell you. It was a Cat-Ass-Trophe.

So no, it's not murder. :mrgreen:
 
If somebody came in here and killed my cat, I would feel like it was murder because he is more than my pet. He is a family member.

And if you get that, you'd have to conceded that many animals are smart and sensitive creatures. They are not as evolved as us of course.

Also note the biblical commandment, "Thou shalt not kill" doesn't specify only to human beings. Only humans can commit this sin, but I can see how murder could apply to killing animals, when there are extenuating circumstances.
 
I believe in the theory of evolution, I believe that most animals on Earth have miraculously evolved to be delicious.
 
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