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Copy of the Koran predates the birth of Mohammed.[W:29]

Re: Copy of the Koran predates the birth of Mohammed.

Excon said:
Wrong.
It was exactly the following.

No, what you have is a made up story.​
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Which is not much better of a response. Smug condescension is not an argument.
 
Re: Copy of the Koran predates the birth of Mohammed.

phattonez said:
Smug condescension is not an argument.
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If you consider a statement of fact smug condescension, sure.

Maybe you just don't get it. I am not going to argue your belief with you.
No one could convince you to something other that what you already believe.
And that is all it is is, a belief.
 
RAMOSS said:
Ihttp://news.discovery.com/history/religion/fragments-of-worlds-oldest-koran-may-predate-muhammad-150901.htm



It futher goes on and cautions only the parchment was tested, but not the ink , but if the testing on the ink holds,.. well...
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I have heard Quran scholars say that Islam is really reformed Zoroastrianism. This would be a clue that it is, and that Muhammad is just a myth.
 
Re: Copy of the Koran predates the birth of Mohammed.

brothern said:
Chez ... Muhammad didn't find the Quran. God revealed it to him verbally, and Muhammad in turn dictated it to his scribes.

That's like first day World Religions 101.
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No ****. I was going under the impression that the Quran predated him...

Jesus ****ing Christ, some people...
 
Re: Copy of the Koran predates the birth of Mohammed.

Excon said:
If you consider a statement of fact smug condescension, sure.

Maybe you just don't get it. I am not going to argue your belief with you.
No one could convince you to something other that what you already believe.
And that is all it is is, a belief.
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Why do you hold your belief if you think it is nothing but a belief? Don't you believe it because you think it is the truth?
 
Re: Copy of the Koran predates the birth of Mohammed.

phattonez said:
Why do you hold your belief if you think it is nothing but a belief? Don't you believe it because you think it is the truth?
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Again. You don't get it.
I am not going to argue your belief with you.
Nor am I going to argue the nature of beliefs with you.
 
Re: Copy of the Koran predates the birth of Mohammed.

phattonez said:
That's a gross generalization. There are many Christians like that, sure, but don't think that we all just ignore the facts to suit our faith. Faith based on nothing is no faith at all.

As for Islam being proved false, bring it.
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You may want to do two things - 1) look up the definition of the term "gross generalization" and, 2) read my post again, specifically where I said "Not all, just the Uber ones." I believe that upon further reflection you may see where your characterization is flawed.
 
Re: Copy of the Koran predates the birth of Mohammed.

Excon said:
Again. You don't get it.
I am not going to argue your belief with you.
Nor am I going to argue the nature of beliefs with you.
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So your belief is just as valid as mine, then?
 
Re: Copy of the Koran predates the birth of Mohammed.

Beaudreaux said:
You may want to do two things - 1) look up the definition of the term "gross generalization" and, 2) read my post again, specifically where I said "Not all, just the Uber ones." I believe that upon further reflection you may see where your characterization is flawed.
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Just the uber ones is also a gross generalization. I would consider myself "uber", and many of the famous scientists of the Church like Gregor Mendel and Georges Lemaitre would also be "uber". That doesn't mean that we just ignore scientific facts.
 
Re: Copy of the Koran predates the birth of Mohammed.

phattonez said:
Just the uber ones is also a gross generalization. I would consider myself "uber", and many of the famous scientists of the Church like Gregor Mendel and Georges Lemaitre would also be "uber". That doesn't mean that we just ignore scientific facts.
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Fine. You win... feel better? It's not worth my time to argue over the definition and limitations of a very subjective term.
 
Re: Copy of the Koran predates the birth of Mohammed.

Beaudreaux said:
Fine. You win... feel better? It's not worth my time to argue over the definition and limitations of a very subjective term.
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I just didn't like the portrayal of the religious as totally closed off to evidence and facts from the outside world. That's far from the truth.
 
Re: Copy of the Koran predates the birth of Mohammed.

phattonez said:
I just didn't like the portrayal of the religious as totally closed off to evidence and facts from the outside world. That's far from the truth.
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And you would have a point, if that was what I said.
 
Re: Copy of the Koran predates the birth of Mohammed.

Beaudreaux said:
And you would have a point, if that was what I said.
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That is what you said. You said that's how the "uber" religious are.
 
Re: Copy of the Koran predates the birth of Mohammed.

Beaudreaux said:
Again... subjective... definition...
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A priest is not "uber" religious? A monk is not "uber" religious?
 
Re: Copy of the Koran predates the birth of Mohammed.

phattonez said:
A priest is not "uber" religious? A monk is not "uber" religious?
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You are intentionally placing yourself in a group that I defined and you argued was wrong so that you could be insulted and upset?

I refuse to play this game any more. Sorry.
 
Re: Copy of the Koran predates the birth of Mohammed.

Beaudreaux said:
You are intentionally placing yourself in a group that I defined and you argued was wrong so that you could be insulted and upset?

I refuse to play this game any more. Sorry.
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I am not a monk nor a priest. I was referring to Mendel and Lemaitre.
 
Re: Copy of the Koran predates the birth of Mohammed.

No religion came directly from a god. They were all invented by people.
 
Re: Copy of the Koran predates the birth of Mohammed.

Hard Truth said:
No religion came directly from a god. They were all invented by people.
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Except for Christianity, which came from the God-man. :)
 
Re: Copy of the Koran predates the birth of Mohammed.

brothern said:
The story is readily Google-able. Regardless the finding was legitimate and was fairly widely reported in the media a month of two ago.

Unfortunately it's not a very impactful finding, because parchment, as a valuable resource, was routinely scraped washed and re-used by early authors. The Sana'a manuscript, for example, shows two layers of Quranic manuscripts with the older one being one of the oldest we've ever found - circa 671 AD. The newer writing is visible to the naked eye, while the older writing is only visible via X-Ray imaging.

So all the finding really shows is that Allah & Muhammad decided that the word of God was better of being written on economical, used parchment rather than placing a new order with the parchment-maker.


(But really, would any Muslim re-think his religious stances if there were funny business with the Quran's writing? I mean Christians still believe in the Bible. :roll:)
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So why isn't that confirmed of this newer finding, an xray imagine, or why does the writing on this remain? Similar to your example of 671 parchment, it is quite possible that even if the naked eye verses of this finding were not the original text, whatever was written on it before was also plagiarized by mohammed and ended up in what we today call the koran. Parchment would likely be used multiple times for a similar purpose

They don't have to re-think their religion for the rest of us to conclude they are fools. More evidence towards the truth is always a good thing
 
Re: Copy of the Koran predates the birth of Mohammed.

chromium said:
So why isn't that confirmed of this newer finding, an xray imagine, or why does the writing on this remain? Similar to your example of 671 parchment, it is quite possible that even if the naked eye verses of this finding were not the original text, whatever was written on it before was also plagiarized by mohammed and ended up in what we today call the koran. Parchment would likely be used multiple times for a similar purpose

They don't have to re-think their religion for the rest of us to conclude they are fools. More evidence towards the truth is always a good thing
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There hasn't been x-ray imaging or any further testing done on it. The 2-page manuscript is owned by the University of Birmingham's Library and the radiocarbon dating was only just initiated this summer by a woman, Alba Fedeli, who earned her PhD this year. Libraries like that usually don't have money or big x-ray imaging machines lying around.

It's probable we're not going to find out more about the pages for a couple of years.
 
Re: Copy of the Koran predates the birth of Mohammed.

phattonez said:
Sure I do. If everything about Jesus was just made up, then why did the Jews feel the need to kill him?
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If everything about Jesus was made up, how do you know the story about the Jews feeling the need to kill him was also not made up?
 
Re: Copy of the Koran predates the birth of Mohammed.

RAMOSS said:
If everything about Jesus was made up, how do you know the story about the Jews feeling the need to kill him was also not made up?
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If everything about Jesus was made up, how do you know he existed?
 
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