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Things I Would Expect From A Righteous God.

Divorce:
Matthew 19
9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife [or husband], except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Women silent in churches:
1 Corinthians 14
34. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Submissive wives
Ephesians 5
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body.

Rape:
Deuteronomy 21:10-14
When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion.


Death for not believing in the right religion:
Exodus 22:20
Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the Lord must be destroyed [put to death].

Genocide:
Deuteronomy 20:16
But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

Slavery allowed in the old testament:
Leviticus 25:44-46
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.

Obedience of slaves commanded in the new testament:
Ephesians 6:5
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.

Generational Punishment:
Deuteronomy 23:2
A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

Killing of Homosexuals in the Old Testament
Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Homosexuals go to hell in New Testament
1 Corinthians 6
9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men.

Death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath.
Numbers 15:
32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.
 
tosca1 said:
How do you know your idea of "righteous" isn't limited by the fact that you see and understand it only within the very limited capacity of your human mind?
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I don't know anything. I was hoping to start a conversation we could all participate in. Did I miss something that you think should be included? Did I add something you think should be excluded?
My mental capacity is nothing to brag about. I'm hoping together, and with the right conversations, maybe we can take our subjects of conversations about gods and deities away from where they were 2 millennia ago. If people want to believe in deities, fine by me. To each his own. But can't we all find a middle ground on what we would at least consider a fair and righteous god if said god were omnipotent and eternal as many religions claim?

tosca1 said:
By what standards? By whose?

Explain please.
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The standards of a righteous god that I fumbled through in my OP.

tosca1 said:
Greed????
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Greed, extreme selfishness. Taking well more than you could ever want or need for the sake of ownership. Do you find that to be a good trait?
 
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JC Callender said:
A person who is in hell has decided with conviction that they're not interested in learning to be righteous.
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So if you die having picked the wrong religion, you've decided with conviction that you're not interested in learning to be righteous? So a caring, loving mother that never hurt a soul but was Muslim, Hindu, or any other religion, should be tortured for all of eternity because she chose wrong? You're a pretty heartless person.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
So if you die having picked the wrong religion, you've decided with conviction that you're not interested in learning to be righteous? So a caring, loving mother that never hurt a soul but was Muslim, Hindu, or any other religion, should be tortured for all of eternity because she chose wrong? You're a pretty heartless person.
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I seriously doubt this is how it all works.

It is unfortunate that Jesus said "he that is baptized ... ." I'm sure that was only intended for the Jews at Jerusalem, although he did also say "Go ye into all the world ... ."

It seems more likely to me that the God(s) look upon the heart and mind and choose those souls who are pure. I would think this includes Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims etc as well.

But as far as Christian doctrine goes, I can't prove anything either way.
 
Riveroaks said:
I seriously doubt this is how it all works.

It is unfortunate that Jesus said "he that is baptized ... ." I'm sure that was only intended for the Jews at Jerusalem, although he did also say "Go ye into all the world ... ."

It seems more likely to me that the God(s) look upon the heart and mind and choose those souls who are pure. I would think this includes Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims etc as well.

But as far as Christian doctrine goes, I can't prove anything either way.
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Well, I also don't believe this is how it works, but unfortunately many cold-hearted christians like JC Callendar do. I was raised in that kind of fundamentalist christianity. If you die without accepting christ, you are going to hell, plain and simple. Many modern christians have started to tap dance around the issue and be like "oh, well, I'm sure he checks their heart and gives them a test" when there really isn't any scripture to back that up. I'm glad that position has started to embarrass them and they've started to soften. It just goes to show the incredible flexibility of a religion that can change and morph to fit the user's convictions.

Eternal hellfire for picking the wrong religion when there's no way to determine which religion is right and which is wrong is fundamentally immoral and irrational.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
So if you die having picked the wrong religion, you've decided with conviction that you're not interested in learning to be righteous? So a caring, loving mother that never hurt a soul but was Muslim, Hindu, or any other religion, should be tortured for all of eternity because she chose wrong? You're a pretty heartless person.
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No, I said that God and love are the same thing, so I wouldn't expect the loving mother to go to hell. And I don't believe that if someone audibly says they believe in Jesus but lives totally contrary to that that they will go to heaven.
 
JC Callender said:
A person doesn't get eternal torment for simply being imperfect. The Bible states clearly that we're all born imperfect.
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That's true, the most evil people can avoid punishment by repenting, and the most perfect person can be eternally tortured for simply refusing to accept Christ.
 
JC Callender said:
No, I said that God and love are the same thing, so I wouldn't expect the loving mother to go to hell. And I don't believe that if someone audibly says they believe in Jesus but lives totally contrary to that that they will go to heaven.
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Ok, then explain to me what the exact criteria are for getting into heaven. I'm an atheist who lives morally. What's going to happen to me?
 
the_recruit said:
That's right.



That's right. I don't feel that causing suffering is good - hence, I am not a "psycho".
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Defining God as a "psycho," is using very limited human understanding to define what is considered the greatest Intelligence that created the universe,
and unless we are trained psychologists, the term "psycho" is used somewhat loosely.....and inappropriately.

My point: If human minds cannot fully comprehend the creation - then surely, we cannot fully comprehend its Creator.
 
Pozessed said:
But can't we all find a middle ground on what we would at least consider a fair and righteous god if said god were omnipotent and eternal as many religions claim?
Click to expand...


If we ever do manage to find this "middle ground"......that still will not make any difference. That would still be plain assumption on our part, giving our very limited understanding of what "righteous" is....since we are not equipped with the capacity of fully understanding the "mind" (if I can just use that term),
of the Creator.

What we come up with.......... will still not make God less righteous!


Furthermore, what is His purpose? The purpose plays in the equation of any major (including devastating) decision.
We ought to know and understand that.....if we're going to judge what is "righteous."


Let me give an illustration:

Terrorists had taken over a plane. It's carrying 400 passengers and a devastating bomb that will kill 1 million people if detonated.
There is no way of disarming the bomb. It's headed for the most populous city in the USA. You are the President of the USA.
The only option is to shoot down the plane (which means killing everyone on board) before it reaches the USA. You don't have time to negotiate.
Will you give the "go ahead" signal?

What is the "righteous" thing to do in this situation?
 
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Originally Posted by the_recruit View Post
Not so. I don't need to be raped to understand that rape is bad, for example.

What children actually learn from getting burned is that hot things cause pain. It is only then apparent that getting burned is bad because the child knows that pain is bad. But consider how a child knows that - that pain is bad. Do parents have to teach them that the experience of pain is bad? Of course not. A child experiences pain and simply feels that it is bad, that it ought not happen. A parent doesn't have to explain that aspect of pain to them ("Johnny, that feeling you're experiencing, that's bad mkay? You should avoid experiencing that sensation" "Oh, ok. Thanks Dad!" ). It is already perfectly apparent to the child (hence, the crying etc).

I would argue that people's notions of right and wrong largely come from 1) inherent biological wiring and 2) social conditioning.
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What does that says of the parent?

For not using that pain experience to explain more to Johnny - especially for not stressing and explaining the importance of safety?
If Johnny plays in the kitchen - it should be driven home to the child that the kitchen is not a play area, and why!
If Johnny tends to grab and pull at the table cloth - it should be explained why there's danger in doing that!
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Ok, then explain to me what the exact criteria are for getting into heaven. I'm an atheist who lives morally. What's going to happen to me?
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I thought you were a Christian for two decades? You don't know?
 
spud_meister said:
That's true, the most evil people can avoid punishment by repenting, and the most perfect person can be eternally tortured for simply refusing to accept Christ.
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The rule to admission has been stipulated, repeatedly. Christ is the admission ticket.

The "perfect" person who rejects Christ (inspite of knowing what he's supposed to do), is not perfect in God's eyes.
That person's got the biggest flaw!

PRIDE. The meek shall inherit the earth. Humble submission. Pride was the downfall of Lucifer!



That would be kinda like someone without a ticket demanding entrance to the baseball game....just because he deems himself above the rules,
for donating to charity! You agree with that person?

If you're recruiting people for an organization - would you be accepting someone who's openly challenging your rules and policies?
 
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tosca1 said:
The rule to admission has been stipulated, repeatedly. Christ is the admission ticket.

The "perfect" person who rejects Christ (inspite of knowing what he's supposed to do), is not perfect in God's eyes.
That person's got the biggest flaw!

PRIDE. The meek shall inherit the earth. Humble submission. Pride was the downfall of Lucifer!



That would be kinda like someone without a ticket demanding entrance to the baseball game....just because he deems himself above the rules,
for donating to charity! You agree with that person?
Click to expand...

I don't disagree with anything you say. My point is admission to the kingdom of God is only through repentance before Christ, and has nothing to do with morality.
 
tosca1

The rule to admission has been stipulated, repeatedly. Christ is the admission ticket.

The "perfect" person who rejects Christ (inspite of knowing what he's supposed to do), is not perfect in God's eyes.
That person's got the biggest flaw!

PRIDE. The meek shall inherit the earth. Humble submission. Pride was the downfall of Lucifer!



That would be kinda like someone without a ticket demanding entrance to the baseball game....just because he deems himself above the rules,
for donating to charity! You agree with that person?


spud_meister said:
I don't disagree with anything you say. My point is admission to the kingdom of God is only through repentance before Christ, and has nothing to do with morality.
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Click to expand...


It's the same thing that's mirrored in our everyday life!
We become indignant when someone gets the special treatment over others.....someone who are made above the rules!


Oh yes, this has very much has to do with morality!

We see the UNFAIRNESS! That's why we get indignant over something like that!


Why do I say objective morality came from God? Incidentally.....that's one of them! An example.
 
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JC Callender said:
I disagree and my basis is James 18-26.
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Yes. Base your theory on a book that was written by men thousands of years ago, and then edited, translated, and revised umpteen-cagillion times.

That holds lots of water. :roll:
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Ok, then explain to me what the exact criteria are for getting into heaven. I'm an atheist who lives morally. What's going to happen to me?
Click to expand...

I don't know the exact criteria and am hoping I'm getting it right, but I believe it's having a truly loving heart, or in short, wanting what's best for others.
 
Dragonfly said:
Yes. Base your theory on a book that was written by men thousands of years ago, and then edited, translated, and revised umpteen-cagillion times.

That holds lots of water. :roll:
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How about I listen to you instead. :lol:
 
tosca1 said:
It's the same thing that's mirrored in our everyday life!
We become indignant when someone gets the special treatment over others.....someone who are made above the rules!


Oh yes, this has very much has to do with morality!

We see the UNFAIRNESS! That's why we get indignant over something like that!


Why do I say objective morality came from God? Incidentally.....that's one of them! An example.
Click to expand...

So you believe that simple belief in Christ is the ultimate moral act?
 
spud_meister said:
Repentance is a deed of faith. And those verses do not say that those without deeds are condemned.
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Faith consists of believing.....AND OBEYING GOD.

You obey.....because you believe in Him! That's faith!


If He says, "you will not enter my Kingdom if you don't go through my Son," then you better believe that's how it's going to be.......that is, if you have faith!
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Well, I also don't believe this is how it works, but unfortunately many cold-hearted christians like JC Callendar do. I was raised in that kind of fundamentalist christianity. If you die without accepting christ, you are going to hell, plain and simple. Many modern christians have started to tap dance around the issue and be like "oh, well, I'm sure he checks their heart and gives them a test" when there really isn't any scripture to back that up. I'm glad that position has started to embarrass them and they've started to soften. It just goes to show the incredible flexibility of a religion that can change and morph to fit the user's convictions.

Eternal hellfire for picking the wrong religion when there's no way to determine which religion is right and which is wrong is fundamentally immoral and irrational.
Click to expand...

Like I said before, I do not believe God(s) care(s) about which religion you belong to.

God(s) look upon the human heart, mind and soul not on religious affiliation, in my opinion.
 
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