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GOD of ABRAHAM is the CREATOR ("DESIGNER")

tosca1 said:
Sorry, but I'll be ignoring attempts at "rebuttals" that are without any substance.
Click to expand...

Typical.

What a waste of a thread.
 
tosca1 said:
According to scientists there is evidence that the universe had a beginning!


"All the evidence seems to indicate, that the universe has not existed forever, but that it had a beginning, about 15 billion years ago. This is probably the most remarkable discovery of modern cosmology. The conclusion of this lecture is that the universe has not existed forever. Rather, the universe, and time itself, had a beginning in the Big Bang, about 15 billion years ago." Stephen Hawking The Beginning of Time
The Beginning of Time - Stephen Hawking


"Scientists generally agree that "the Big Bang" birthed the universe about 15 billion years ago." Tom Parisi, Northern Illinois University
In Search of the Beginning


"As a result of the Big Bang (the tremendous explosion which marked the beginning of our Universe), the universe is expanding and most of the galaxies within it are moving away from each other." CalTech THE INFRARED UNIVERSE - The Early Universe


"The scientific evidence is now overwhelming that the Universe began with a "Big Bang" ~15 billion (15,000,000,000 or 15E9) years ago." "The Big Bang theory is the most widely accepted theory of the creation of the Universe." Dr. van der Pluijm, University of Michigan
Global Change 1: The Evolution of the Universe


"The present location and velocities of galaxies are a result of a primordial blast known as the BIG BANG. It marked: THE BEGINNING OF THE UNIVERSE! THE BEGINNING OF TIME!" Terry Herter, Cornell University Lecture 29: Cosmology


"The universe had a beginning. There was once nothing and now there is something." Janna Levin, Department of Applied Mathematics and Theoretical Physics at Cambridge University
Sample Chapter for Levin, J.: How the Universe Got Its Spots: Diary of a Finite Time in a Finite Space.


"Most scientists agree that the universe began some 12 to 20 billion years ago in what has come to be known as the Big Bang (a term coined by the English astrophysicist Fred Hoyle in 1950." University of Illinois http://archive.ncsa.illinois.edu/Cyberia/Cosmos/InTheBeginning.html


"A large body of astrophysical observations now clearly points to a beginning for our universe about 15 billion years ago in a cataclysmic outpouring of elementary particles. There is, in fact, no evidence that any of the particles of matter with which we are now familiar existed before this great event." Louis J. Clavelli, Ph.D., Professor of Physics, University of Alabama http://bama.ua.edu/~lclavell/pages/ssu.html


"THE UNIVERSE AND ALL OF SPACE ARE EXPANDING FROM A BIG BANG BEGINNING" Center for Cosmological Physics, University of Chicago
http://cfcp.uchicago.edu/education/resources/know/seven-things.pdf




Cosmological data shows that the universe had a beginning, when space, time, matter and energy exploded out from the cosmic event known as the Big Bang.
That supports what the Bible had described - that God spread out the heavens, and visible parts were made from the invisible.

Hebrews 11:3
3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
Click to expand...

You completely ignored my point. Why did you do that?
 
Btw, since expansion of the universe has been brought up.....that, too, has been described in the Bible. 17 TIMES!


From King James version

And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature [was] as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.
Ezekiel 1:22

[It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
- Isaiah 40:22


Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isaiah 42:5


Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I [am] the LORD that maketh all [things]; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Isaiah 44:24

I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, [even] my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
Isaiah 45:12

Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: [when] I call unto them, they stand up together.
Isaiah 48:13

And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where [is] the fury of the oppressor?
Isaiah 51:13


He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.
Jeremiah 10:12

He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding.
Jeremiah 51:15

Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.
Job 9:8

He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, [and] hangeth the earth upon nothing.
Job 26:7


He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness [was] under his feet.
Psalms 18:9

Who coverest [thyself] with light as [with] a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
Psalms 104:2

Bow thy heavens, O LORD, and come down: touch the mountains, and they shall smoke.
Psalms 144:5

Hast thou with him spread out the sky, [which is] strong, [and] as a molten looking glass?
Job 37:18


He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness [was] under his feet.
2 Samuel 22:10

The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
Zechariah 12:1



Don't wonder why the word "stretches" has been used several times in those verses.

The universe has not expanded from any one spot since the Big Bang — rather, space itself has been STRETCHING, and carrying matter with it.
Click to expand...

Our Expanding Universe: Age, History & Other Facts



Now, what did the Scripture means by the description of a bow? It could've been a reference to stretching.....or it could be something else like this:

What Does the Edge of the Solar System Look Like? Ask Voyager.
This still shows the locations of Voyager 1 & 2 Voyager 1 is traveling faster, reaching the termination shock sooner. The dramatic orange border to the left represents the bow shock, a theoretical area created as interstellar gas runs into the solar atmosphere. The location of the termination shock, or the boundary into the area where interstellar gas and solar wind start to mix, has been a mystery to scientists because it moves with regard to the power of the solar wind.
What's out there at the boundaries of our solar system? Starting out at a view of our Milky Way galaxy, the orange gas in the animation represents the interstellar medium.
The bow shock is created because the heliosphere is moving through like a boat through the water, crashing through the interstellar gases. The bow shock in front of the moving heliosphere is similar to the one observed by the Hubble Space Telescope.

The Hubble Space Telescope imaged this view in February 1995. The arcing, graceful structure is actually a bow shock about half a light-year across, created from the wind from the star L.L. Orionis colliding with the Orion Nebula flow.
Click to expand...
NASA - What Does the Edge of the Solar System Look Like? Ask Voyager.


It is indeed shaped like a bow!
 
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tosca1 said:
This thread is related to the other topic that was recently created, IS THERE A GOD?

http://www.debatepolitics.com/philosophical-discussions/232358-there-god.html


The purpose of this thread is to provide evidences that the God of Abraham (the God of the Bible) is the same God that Created the Universe.
He is also what is called, the Designer.

The Bible - which is authored by the Creator - will be heavily cited.




The CREATOR has intimate knowledge of His Creation. How can He not?
If He was the One who designed and created....of course, He knows everything about it!


The heading of the beginning of the Bible, is about........ the beginning. It simply states: The Beginning
The very first statement of the Old Testament - Genesis 1 - is an official declaration by the Creator.

Genesis 1

The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.


That first statement informs us that:
1. the universe had a beginning
2. it was Created
3. the Creator is God. God of Abraham. The Biblical God.


Science had discovered and confirmed the universe had a beginning. They've discovered it only sometime in the 1990's, please correct me if I'm wrong about the date......and yet, that fact was declared thousands of years ago (verbally passed by "primitive" ancient men for who knows how long before it got finally written down, on paper), without the use of any technology, I must add.


Beginning of the Universe - Science Confirms
Pure scientific findings consistently point to only one conclusion: the universe had a singular start, an explosion, where everything we know--the universe, time, space, scientific laws we observe--all had a beginning.

Beginning of the Universe - Beginning of Time


Where did that vital information come from?
According to the ancient folks who'd verbally passed that vital info, it came from God. The Creator.
Click to expand...

The Bible states that the earth was created at the same time as the rest of the universe. We know this is false.
 
spud_meister said:
The Bible states that the earth was created at the same time as the rest of the universe. We know this is false.
Click to expand...

You're making assumptions that He created them at exactly the same time. And you're assuming that the "day" is equivalent to 24 hours as we know it.


The statement that, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth," could be just that!
A formal statement. We don't know the actual time intervals between creations. Take note that the "first day" began after He created light.
 
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tosca1 said:
I must've missed your point. What was it again?
Click to expand...

I think it was pretty clear so I'll repost it with only modest alterations. When hypothesizing the origins of the Universe you only have two options. Either the Universe began, or it has always been. Without scientific evidence it's basically a coin flip. Some religious and ancient thinkers chose to believe it had a beginning, others that it had always been. That the early Abrahamic cult also chose to believe in a beginning proves nothing--they had a significant amount of company in that belief. So why ascribe special significance to the Abrahamic approach?

Is this still unclear?
 
tosca1 said:
You're making assumptions that He created them at exactly the same time. And you're assuming that the "day" is equivalent to 24 hours as we know it.


The statement that, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth," could be just that!
A formal statement. We don't know the actual time intervals between creations. Take note that the "first day" began after He created light.
Click to expand...

God created the heavens and the earth. Not then the earth. Not to mention the very idea that the earth was created before light was around, or that the sun existed before all the other stars. As a creation myth, Genesis has no relation to reality.
 
tosca1 said:
You're making assumptions that He created them at exactly the same time. And you're assuming that the "day" is equivalent to 24 hours as we know it.


The statement that, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth," could be just that!
A formal statement. We don't know the actual time intervals between creations. Take note that the "first day" began after He created light.
Click to expand...

Now you are just making things up, just like the Bible has. "Could be just that," when we have too much evidence saying otherwise.
 
tosca1 said:
This thread is related to the other topic that was recently created, IS THERE A GOD?

http://www.debatepolitics.com/philosophical-discussions/232358-there-god.html


The purpose of this thread is to provide evidences that the God of Abraham (the God of the Bible) is the same God that Created the Universe.
He is also what is called, the Designer.

The Bible - which is authored by the Creator - will be heavily cited.




The CREATOR has intimate knowledge of His Creation. How can He not?
If He was the One who designed and created....of course, He knows everything about it!


The heading of the beginning of the Bible, is about........ the beginning. It simply states: The Beginning
The very first statement of the Old Testament - Genesis 1 - is an official declaration by the Creator.

Genesis 1

The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.


That first statement informs us that:
1. the universe had a beginning
2. it was Created
3. the Creator is God. God of Abraham. The Biblical God.


Science had discovered and confirmed the universe had a beginning. They've discovered it only sometime in the 1990's, please correct me if I'm wrong about the date......and yet, that fact was declared thousands of years ago (verbally passed by "primitive" ancient men for who knows how long before it got finally written down, on paper), without the use of any technology, I must add.


Beginning of the Universe - Science Confirms
Pure scientific findings consistently point to only one conclusion: the universe had a singular start, an explosion, where everything we know--the universe, time, space, scientific laws we observe--all had a beginning.

Beginning of the Universe - Beginning of Time


Where did that vital information come from?
According to the ancient folks who'd verbally passed that vital info, it came from God. The Creator.
Click to expand...

"Was the Big Bang the origin of the universe?
It is a common misconception that the Big Bang was the origin of the universe. In reality, the Big Bang scenario is completely silent about how the universe came into existence in the first place. In fact, the closer we look to time "zero," the less certain we are about what actually happened, because our current description of physical laws do not yet apply to such extremes of nature.

The Big Bang scenario simply assumes that space, time, and energy already existed. But it tells us nothing about where they came from - or why the universe was born hot and dense to begin with."
https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/seuforum/faq.htm#m12

If you are trying to imply that the big bang was the origin of the universe then you are wrong.
 
Sherman123 said:
I think it was pretty clear so I'll repost it with only modest alterations. When hypothesizing the origins of the Universe you only have two options. Either the Universe began, or it has always been. Without scientific evidence it's basically a coin flip. Some religious and ancient thinkers chose to believe it had a beginning, others that it had always been. That the early Abrahamic cult also chose to believe in a beginning proves nothing--they had a significant amount of company in that belief. So why ascribe special significance to the Abrahamic approach? Is this still unclear?
Click to expand...


HOWEVER, there is scientific evidence that it has a beginning, there is no flipping the coin.....

.......I even provided you the proof, with all those quotations from scientists/universities/science sites.



You are missing my point though.


The Bible has written descriptions relating to creations - which is being supported by science!

That's what set the Abrahamic religion apart from the others: THE BIBLE!
 
tosca1 said:
Now, the other thread, IS THERE A GOD, gives evidences that point to creation. I'll go in-line with those evidences as they get presented, and give you evidences that show the Creator/Designer is the God of Abraham.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/philosophical-discussions/232358-there-god.html


Again, there will be that same CUMULATIVE EVIDENCE to take into serious consideration - meaning that corroborating evidences give reinforcement to one another, thereby providing a very strong effect to the argument being presented.

At the end, you'll have to deal with the fact that the CUMULATIVE EVIDENCE, is, by itself, a very powerful argument.
Click to expand...

In neither that thread, not this one, have you supplied evidence. You give plenty of SUPPOSITION, but no evidence. Just like in the other thread, here too you are assuming the answer. You've never presented any evidence ever.
 
spud_meister said:
God created the heavens and the earth. Not then the earth. Not to mention the very idea that the earth was created before light was around, or that the sun existed before all the other stars. As a creation myth, Genesis has no relation to reality.
Click to expand...

In the Beginning God created the heavens and the earth.....would be like an introductory statement!

If you'll take it literally, you'd see that the next verse makes no sense, either!

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

If the earth has no form and it is void (literally, you'd think God was talking about earth)....how can it have a "deep?"
He must be talking abut something else about the "deep."



There has been some quotes from other scientists before....but the latest one is a book that focused on Genesis/Big Bang.

A scientist wrote a book about Genesis. He said that figuratively, he found the Genesis account, accurate!

Andrew Parker is known within the scientific community as the man who best explained the "big bang" in the diversity of life that occurred over 500 million years ago. Stimulated by that research, he became interested in the biblical account of Genesis.
Click to expand...
The Genesis Enigma: Why the First Book of the Bible Is Scientifically Accurate: Andrew Parker: 9780452296558: Amazon.com: Books


He authored The Genesis Enigma: Why the Bible Is Scientifically Accurate [/B The book description reads:

An acclaimed, paradigm-shifting evolutionary biologist shows how the biblical story of Genesis uncannily reflects recent scientific discoveries-and finds room for divine inspiration within.

Consider this: Genesis recounts the story of creation, step-by-step: "Let there be light"; "Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear"; "Let the earth bring forth [vegetation]"; "Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life"; "God created the whales"; "And God created . . . every winged fowl." For thousands of years, Judeo-Christian belief has accepted this progression as truth. And now, thanks to recent scientific discoveries, the scientific community does, too (though without the mention of "God").

In The Genesis Enigma, respected evolutionary biologist Andrew Parker explains each parallel between Genesis and science in detail-and the closer he looks, the more amazing the parallels become.

But the Genesis account has no right to be correct. The author or authors could not have known these things happened in this order, and with the highlights science has come to recognize.

Ultimately, Parker argues, it must be divine inspiration that guided the writing of the Bible.


The Genesis Enigma: Why the Bible Is Scientifically Accurate by Andrew Parker — Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists


He accidentally came upon the parallels.
He's said to be an agnostic in an article......but I've read too from another that he ended up converting due to that. I don't know.
But in his video, he did sound like he's converted.


 
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tosca1 said:
HOWEVER, there is scientific evidence that it has a beginning, there is no flipping the coin.....

.......I even provided you the proof, with all those quotations from scientists/universities/science sites.



You are missing my point though.


The Bible has written descriptions relating to creations - which is being supported by science!

That's what set the Abrahamic religion apart from the others: THE BIBLE!
Click to expand...

That completely ignores my point.
 
Ikari said:
In neither that thread, not this one, have you supplied evidence. You give plenty of SUPPOSITION, but no evidence. Just like in the other thread, here too you are assuming the answer. You've never presented any evidence ever.
Click to expand...

There are some other posters like you who just say, "no...there is no evidence! It can't be. It's mythology...." But that's not giving anything in rebuttal.

So, responses like that pretty much end the discussion between us, doesn't it? You're merely insisting giving your opinion, with nothing to base it on.

All that show is that, some folks are either not comprehending what's given.....or, are simply in denial.
 
Sherman123 said:
That completely ignores my point.
Click to expand...

I responded to this:

Sherman123

That the early Abrahamic cult also chose to believe in a beginning proves nothing--they had a significant amount of company in that belief. So why ascribe special significance to the Abrahamic approach? Is this still unclear?
Click to expand...



And I just told you what set the Abrahamic religion apart from the others! Here:

tosca1

The Bible has written descriptions relating to creations - which is being supported by science!

That's what set the Abrahamic religion apart from the others: THE BIBLE!
Click to expand...


Counting my previous response to you.....I practically responded to your post, line by line!

If you still say that my response still ignores your point.....then, be clear with your point!
 
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distraff said:
"Was the Big Bang the origin of the universe?
It is a common misconception that the Big Bang was the origin of the universe. In reality, the Big Bang scenario is completely silent about how the universe came into existence in the first place. In fact, the closer we look to time "zero," the less certain we are about what actually happened, because our current description of physical laws do not yet apply to such extremes of nature.

The Big Bang scenario simply assumes that space, time, and energy already existed. But it tells us nothing about where they came from - or why the universe was born hot and dense to begin with."
https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/seuforum/faq.htm#m12

If you are trying to imply that the big bang was the origin of the universe then you are wrong.
Click to expand...

Of course there are some who's trying to discount it. I stand by the various statements from the quotes I gave. That's the general consensus.

Anyway, there's no telling what happened prior to that, is there? But no matter how far back we try to go.....it will always point to the same logical answer!

If the Bible has already given several information - that's been proven by science - logically, why can't we consider creation, to be the most likely answer?
 
tosca1 said:
There are some other posters like you who just say, "no...there is no evidence! It can't be. It's mythology...." But that's not giving anything in rebuttal.

So, responses like that pretty much end the discussion between us, doesn't it? You're merely insisting giving your opinion, with nothing to base it on.

All that show is that, some folks are either not comprehending what's given.....or, are simply in denial.
Click to expand...

It's just that you keep saying evidence, but never present it. Your arguments revolve around logical jumps, supposition and wishful thinking. While perhaps there is an argument for gods, it's not what you present. Never have you ever made a thread on this site where you sayd Evidence or Proof where you have offered it up.

Your arguments continue to do nothing more than indulge in illogical, poorly thought out, insufficiently backed, head in the clouds thinking.

You want to insult people, say they can't comprehend, but what you should comprehend is that your argument is specious and not founded in logic nor science.
 
Ikari said:
It's just that you keep saying evidence, but never present it. Your arguments revolve around logical jumps, supposition and wishful thinking. While perhaps there is an argument for gods, it's not what you present. Never have you ever made a thread on this site where you sayd Evidence or Proof where you have offered it up.

Your arguments continue to do nothing more than indulge in illogical, poorly thought out, insufficiently backed, head in the clouds thinking.

You want to insult people, say they can't comprehend, but what you should comprehend is that your argument is specious and not founded in logic nor science.
Click to expand...

Saying the possibility they can't comprehend, isn't an insult. It's stating the likely problem why some posters keep saying there are no evidences being given....with nothing to support that opinion.

Now, not providing anything substantive that we can chew on - as to why you say there's no evidence - is actually what's an insult.....to our intelligence.

If you'll just keep rehashing your post, I'll have to ignore you, Ikari.
 
tosca1 said:
Saying the possibility they can't comprehend, isn't an insult. It's stating the likely problem why some posters keep saying there are no evidences being given....with nothing to support that opinion.

Now, not providing anything substantive that we can chew on - as to why you say there's no evidence - is actually what's an insult.....to our intelligence.

If you'll just keep rehashing your post, I'll have to ignore you, Ikari.
Click to expand...

You are free to do as you want, you have no evidence. You keep using the word, you even evoke science, but none of it diffinitively points to your conclusion. You made a logical leap. And, as always, the only way you can deal with criticism is to ignore it.

Fine-Tuning does not demand a creator. Just because things look so perfect for us does not mean it was designed. The Big Bang does not necessitate a creator either. None of what you purport is backed by the "evidence" you list.
 
tosca1 said:
This thread is related to the other topic that was recently created, IS THERE A GOD?

http://www.debatepolitics.com/philosophical-discussions/232358-there-god.html


The purpose of this thread is to provide evidences that the God of Abraham (the God of the Bible) is the same God that Created the Universe.
He is also what is called, the Designer.

The Bible - which is authored by the Creator - will be heavily cited.




The CREATOR has intimate knowledge of His Creation. How can He not?
If He was the One who designed and created....of course, He knows everything about it!


The heading of the beginning of the Bible, is about........ the beginning. It simply states: The Beginning
The very first statement of the Old Testament - Genesis 1 - is an official declaration by the Creator.

Genesis 1

The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.


That first statement informs us that:
1. the universe had a beginning
2. it was Created
3. the Creator is God. God of Abraham. The Biblical God.


Science had discovered and confirmed the universe had a beginning. They've discovered it only sometime in the 1990's, please correct me if I'm wrong about the date......and yet, that fact was declared thousands of years ago (verbally passed by "primitive" ancient men for who knows how long before it got finally written down, on paper), without the use of any technology, I must add.


Beginning of the Universe - Science Confirms
Pure scientific findings consistently point to only one conclusion: the universe had a singular start, an explosion, where everything we know--the universe, time, space, scientific laws we observe--all had a beginning.

Beginning of the Universe - Beginning of Time


Where did that vital information come from?
According to the ancient folks who'd verbally passed that vital info, it came from God. The Creator.
Click to expand...

Tosca my dear friend, you must remember historically speaking, that it was Moses who wrote the early books of the Bible.

Abraham is just a traditional character in his narrative which both Jews and Muslims have grown to accept as a real person in their history.

So the God of Abraham whom you are also calling the God of the Bible is really the God of Moses and His name is YHVH.

Also, the Bible has 2 parts, and older part, and a newer part. The older part covers 1450 B.C.E. at the times of Moses to 450 B.C.E. up to Nehemiah and Ezra. The newer part covers 5 B.C. to 90 A.D. from the times of Jesus to St. John the Apostle.

Each of these two parts describe totally different Gods, if you read them both carefully enough.

The God of the older part is a single God who goes by many names of which YHVH is only one of them.

The God of the newer part goes by only one name and he has a Son by a mortal Woman. This Son promises to send yet another God when He himself departs. That's THREE GODS Tosca my dear lady -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Count them -- THREE GODS.
 
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tosca1 said:
2. CAUSALITY aka THE LAW OF CAUSE AND EFFECT

http://www.debatepolitics.com/philosophical-discussions/232358-there-god-10.html


The Bible screams about the Cause. The very first verse of the very first chapter of the very first Book gives the cause:

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth.”
Click to expand...

Let me give you a more literal translation out of the Hebrew for this sentence. It probably does not matter much, but there is a slight difference:

IN BEGINNING CREATED(masculine singular verb) ELOHIM (plural Hebrew word for "judges") THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH.
 
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Sherman123 said:
I think it was pretty clear so I'll repost it with only modest alterations. When hypothesizing the origins of the Universe you only have two options. Either the Universe began, or it has always been. Without scientific evidence it's basically a coin flip. Some religious and ancient thinkers chose to believe it had a beginning, others that it had always been. That the early Abrahamic cult also chose to believe in a beginning proves nothing--they had a significant amount of company in that belief. So why ascribe special significance to the Abrahamic approach? ... .
Click to expand...

Correct. The best citation I can offer in support of Sherman is "The Historical Library Of Diodorus Siculus," compiled in 30 B.C. In his first chapter of his book 1, he discusses both of these viewpoints, regarding it always having existed, or having been created at some point. I have a copy of the book in my history library, and it's one of my favorites. He draws from earlier historians such as Herodotus and so forth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diodorus_Siculus
 
OrphanSlug said:
Which does not prove anything... still.
Click to expand...

Correct. Dear sweet Tosca is quoting speculation and hypotheses of philosophers and physical scientists. That's not proof it is mere speculation.

The fallacy here from my list of fallacies in my fallacy thread is affirmation of the consequent.

I think this thread is probably over now.
 
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