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Possibly Impossible Part One

William Rea

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So, the starting point is to define what are 'god(s)'? What are their defining attributes? Are there any other points about the definition of 'god(s)' that need to be considered?
 
So, the starting point is to define what are 'god(s)'? What are their defining attributes? Are there any other points about the definition of 'god(s)' that need to be considered?

Talk about impossible?

There will be as many definitions of what a God is, as there are people that have one. Not only does each Religion have their own version, but there are different ones for each sect and denomination as well as even more for each worshiper.

Good luck trying to define that which does not exist outside the human mind.
 
Talk about impossible?

There will be as many definitions of what a God is, as there are people that have one. Not only does each Religion have their own version, but there are different ones for each sect and denomination as well as even more for each worshiper.

Good luck trying to define that which does not exist outside the human mind.

Mankind has invented many attributes for the many invented gods.
 
So, the starting point is to define what are 'god(s)'? What are their defining attributes? Are there any other points about the definition of 'god(s)' that need to be considered?

From the history I have read, I would suspect you can find pretty much everything has been or could imaginably be a God.
 
So, the starting point is to define what are 'god(s)'? What are their defining attributes? Are there any other points about the definition of 'god(s)' that need to be considered?

You might as well make that as open ended as possible and offer that God just means not of this universe.
 
So, the starting point is to define what are 'god(s)'? What are their defining attributes? Are there any other points about the definition of 'god(s)' that need to be considered?

Narrow it down. "gods" could just be about anyone, as in an emperor......or anything.....like a tree for example.....or a cat.
That could also figuratively refer to someone who holds a man's life in his hand - like a judge, or a dictator.


Why not ask about the defining attributes of God, the Creator?
 
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Narrow it down. "gods" could just be about anyone, as in an emperor......or anything.....like a tree for example.....or a cat. It could also refer to someone who holds a man's life in his hand - like a judge, or a dictator.

Why not ask about the defining attributes of God, the Creator.

That is what he's asking. God could be an emperor, a tree, or a cat. How to define god is completely arbitrary and up to each person. There is no objective description of god, everyone makes up the details in a way that makes them feel comfortable. You may prefer to envision god as a tempermental deity of ancient desert dwellers, and I could prefer to envision god as a bowl of warm noodles. Seeing as how there is zero evidence of any kind, it's arbitrary and you can make up whatever you want.
 
You might as well make that as open ended as possible and offer that God just means not of this universe.

I could actually buy into that, Orphan...

...as long as you are not saying that "this universe" is all that IS.

What we human think of as "this universe" may be only a minuscule part of what actually IS.

A "god" certainly does not have to be anything like those creatures have invented over the years.

A "god" could be something humans cannot even contemplate...let alone describe or define.

As for William's questions:

So, the starting point is to define what are 'god(s)'?


Why? We may not be able to do that...but that does not preclude discussion of it in general terms.


What are their defining attributes?

Beats me. I suspect it beats just about everyone.


Are there any other points about the definition of 'god(s)' that need to be considered?

I don't think there are any points that NEED to be considered at all.

If the question is: Can something exist that made this thing we humans call "the universe?''



I can think of no reason for anyone to suggest the answer to that is "NO."
 
That is what he's asking. God could be an emperor, a tree, or a cat. How to define god is completely arbitrary and up to each person. There is no objective description of god, everyone makes up the details in a way that makes them feel comfortable. You may prefer to envision god as a tempermental deity of ancient desert dwellers, and I could prefer to envision god as a bowl of warm noodles. Seeing as how there is zero evidence of any kind, it's arbitrary and you can make up whatever you want.

Well, as I've explained....there is a difference when you talk of gods and God, the Creator.

Philosophers don't refer to those "god" he asked about.
Do Philosophers refer to Wiccan's trees, or Zeus, or Brighid..... when they debate about the attributes of God?

Did any scientist ever pointed to the Iliad, or whatever book Wiccans use, or even books used by Buddhists as their point of reference?

Did we ever debate on this forum about wiccan gods and goddesses, Zeus and Venus, etc...? Who among the many posters here ever brought forth any of those gods to be specifically discussed?


What Book is the only one ever referred to by some notable scientists as their point of reference? The BIBLE!
Usually, when you talk about God....you refer to the Creator God.
 
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I could actually buy ... the answer to that is "NO."

The challenge is there Frank. You said you didn't want to derail other threads so I started this one. The topic is as per the OP. Can you do it?
 
You might as well make that as open ended as possible and offer that God just means not of this universe.

If that is the agreed upon definition then so be it.
 
The challenge is there Frank. You said you didn't want to derail other threads so I started this one. The topic is as per the OP. Can you do it?

Can I do what?

Misquote the way you just did?

Sure...but I would prefer not to.
 
You misquoted what I said...and I was asking if that was what you wanted me to do.

Is it?

OK, I retract any quoting I may have made. The topic of the OP Frank? You were going to post about it?
 
Possibly Impossible Part One
So, the starting point is to define what are 'god(s)'? What are their defining attributes? Are there any other points about the definition of 'god(s)' that need to be considered?
1. I'd refine the thread title as well as the starting point to simply "impossible
2. I guess one could credit imaginatory constructs with attributes but what would be the point?
3. see #2.
 
I could actually buy into that, Orphan...

...as long as you are not saying that "this universe" is all that IS.

What we human think of as "this universe" may be only a minuscule part of what actually IS.

A "god" certainly does not have to be anything like those creatures have invented over the years.

A "god" could be something humans cannot even contemplate...let alone describe or define.

I was not necessarily talking in terms of putting into a box all the qualifiers for the definition of God. It was more about relating several concepts rolled up into one core theme.

No matter if you subscribe to the philosophical concept of "maximal greatness," or a thing (for lack of a better word) absolutely perfect and splendid to the point of awe that nothing greater is remotely conceivable. Think the older ideas from polytheism and early undefined principles that simply resonate with the idea of perfection. Perhaps not really even defined but illustrated about in early art, early sculpting, etc. But the base idea was there in "not of this world," we later suggest "not of this universe."

Or, if you subscribe to the idea of a maximally perfect person who is responsible for life (the role of the creator.) A graduation of the above idea but this time with some added concepts such as we were not created to be perfect but our creator is perfect. The responsible party for whom gave us the responsibility of accepting or rejecting that grace originating with an old white haired guy sitting in the dark then creating all we see as our reality. The terms themselves took time to formulate, but the ideas were further made relevant in text showing something omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent that still suggest "not of this world" and "not of this universe." And consequently and even accidentally furthering the ideas of crossing realities from the realm of deity to ours.

Or, even if you subscribe to the idea of another reality without common attributes to our reality. Going the more systems of process (science) route. The idea that even if we establish a set of core principles and scientific laws for our own universe that there is no real direct proven method to apply them outside of our universe. Still a notion of something here and something beyond. A barrier some suggest is a matter of life, others suggest is a matter of energy, others even suggest a matter of consciousness.

No matter which or how many you really consider, through systems of belief or systems of process, there is a stopping point in which anything beyond that point is generally speaking some form of speculation based on principles of belief or principles of science. Not just in how you define God or Gods, but define anything outside of our reality. With the pivot point being the truths to being in this reality, as we have defined them.

That makes this rather open ended but the pure basis point for all these discussions all boil down to the exact same thing, what is on the other side. Define from there. And all the sister conversations on how to pass from one to the other all come down to explanations from religion (as in purpose) or explanations from science (as in energy) centering on that same issue. What is on the other side? The easiest way to define it is "whatever is not of this universe." Everything else, subject to debate. Probably mostly based on what one believes over knows.
 
If that is the agreed upon definition then so be it.

More like a basis point, a start for the conversation that humanity has generally adopted in some form no matter what was done with the idea next. Hence, the "open ended" bit.
 
OK, I retract any quoting I may have made. The topic of the OP Frank? You were going to post about it?

Yup.

I agree with part of what Orphan offered as an attribute.

A god probably should not be of "this universe"...as long as we agree that "this universe" may not be all of what IS.

I personally think any attempt to define a "god" is not going to go very far...and it certainly would not surprise me if humans are just not up to the job.

But if "this universe" is the creation of "some thing"...

...that thing is what I, personally, would consider a god.
 
Possibly Impossible Part One
1. I'd refine the thread title as well as the starting point to simply "impossible
2. I guess one could credit imaginatory constructs with attributes but what would be the point?
3. see #2.

I am open to any suggestions, the idea of this is to get a definition of 'god(s)' that we can work with for the follow on threads. If one part of the agreed definition is that they are imaginary entities then that sounds fine.
 
I was not necessarily talking in terms of putting into a box all the qualifiers for the definition of God. It was more about relating several concepts rolled up into one core theme.

No matter if you subscribe to the philosophical concept of "maximal greatness," or a thing (for lack of a better word) absolutely perfect and splendid to the point of awe that nothing greater is remotely conceivable. Think the older ideas from polytheism and early undefined principles that simply resonate with the idea of perfection. Perhaps not really even defined but illustrated about in early art, early sculpting, etc. But the base idea was there in "not of this world," we later suggest "not of this universe."

Or, if you subscribe to the idea of a maximally perfect person who is responsible for life (the role of the creator.) A graduation of the above idea but this time with some added concepts such as we were not created to be perfect but our creator is perfect. The responsible party for whom gave us the responsibility of accepting or rejecting that grace originating with an old white haired guy sitting in the dark then creating all we see as our reality. The terms themselves took time to formulate, but the ideas were further made relevant in text showing something omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent that still suggest "not of this world" and "not of this universe." And consequently and even accidentally furthering the ideas of crossing realities from the realm of deity to ours.

Or, even if you subscribe to the idea of another reality without common attributes to our reality. Going the more systems of process (science) route. The idea that even if we establish a set of core principles and scientific laws for our own universe that there is no real direct proven method to apply them outside of our universe. Still a notion of something here and something beyond. A barrier some suggest is a matter of life, others suggest is a matter of energy, others even suggest a matter of consciousness.

No matter which or how many you really consider, through systems of belief or systems of process, there is a stopping point in which anything beyond that point is generally speaking some form of speculation based on principles of belief or principles of science. Not just in how you define God or Gods, but define anything outside of our reality. With the pivot point being the truths to being in this reality, as we have defined them.

That makes this rather open ended but the pure basis point for all these discussions all boil down to the exact same thing, what is on the other side. Define from there. And all the sister conversations on how to pass from one to the other all come down to explanations from religion (as in purpose) or explanations from science (as in energy) centering on that same issue. What is on the other side? The easiest way to define it is "whatever is not of this universe." Everything else, subject to debate. Probably mostly based on what one believes over knows.

So we can start a list with...

1. Basically supernatural.
 
Yup.

I agree with part of what Orphan offered as an attribute.

A god probably should not be of "this universe"...as long as we agree that "this universe" may not be all of what IS.

I personally think any attempt to define a "god" is not going to go very far...and it certainly would not surprise me if humans are just not up to the job.

But if "this universe" is the creation of "some thing"...

...that thing is what I, personally, would consider a god.

Well, unless you can be more specific I am going to reject what you posted as I am not prepared to condense what you have said into anything meaningful because I will no doubt be accused of misquoting you. Can you try again?
 
I am open to any suggestions, the idea of this is to get a definition of 'god(s)' that we can work with for the follow on threads. If one part of the agreed definition is that they are imaginary entities then that sounds fine.
It's simply my take on it. If others want to recognize reality in the concept and dish out attributes as a consequence, that's fine with me too.
 
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