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morality, objective or subjective

CLAX1911

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Listen I know this subject has had a fair share of threads started. But I have given this a lot of thought and I have to switch teams. Morality is very subjective. I have come to this position logically. But I did prompted by discussion with various people on this forum.

Before we discuss we must first define terms.
Subjective the way I mean to use it is something based on or influenced by personal feelings tastes or opinion.

Objective meaning something not based on or influenced by personal feelings tastes or opinion.

So, I have come to accept morality as subjective. I won't try and preempt any argument in the op. I am pretty confident in my ability to defend my position. But who knows it could change.
 
Morality is a logical construct whereby rational people understand a certain principle and extrapolate their arguments from such a principle - namely, the notion of doing unto others.

As a general observation, too many people on the right see morality as an arbitrary recipe to follow while too many on the left see it as so relative that the notion has no meaning. It is neither arbitrary nor relativistic. The dogmatism of the former and nihilism of the latter do not address WHY actions are moral, and without reasons for actions, there is no morality.
 
Listen I know this subject has had a fair share of threads started. But I have given this a lot of thought and I have to switch teams. Morality is very subjective. I have come to this position logically. But I did prompted by discussion with various people on this forum.

Before we discuss we must first define terms.
Subjective the way I mean to use it is something based on or influenced by personal feelings tastes or opinion.

Objective meaning something not based on or influenced by personal feelings tastes or opinion.

So, I have come to accept morality as subjective. I won't try and preempt any argument in the op. I am pretty confident in my ability to defend my position. But who knows it could change.

If someone murdered you, and it felt good to them and they thought it right, would it be right?
 
Morality is a logical construct whereby rational people understand a certain principle and extrapolate their arguments from such a principle - namely, the notion of doing unto others.

As a general observation, too many people on the right see morality as an arbitrary recipe to follow while too many on the left see it as so relative that the notion has no meaning. It is neither arbitrary nor relativistic. The dogmatism of the former and nihilism of the latter do not address WHY actions are moral, and without reasons for actions, there is no morality.
Very well stated.
 
Morality seems to be both subjective and objectve. The definition of a moral code (social order, laws and customs) is subjective and the enforcement of that moral code (once establlished) is objective.
 
No, however saying that doesn't mean morality isn't subjective.

Yes it does. If the actions I've described, under the circumstances I've described, is wrong, then there must be something non-subjectively wrong with it.
 
How do you figure that?

Killing someone in order to take their possessions can be unacceptable (immoral?) while killing someone in self defense can be acceptable (moral?) all within the same society. Morality is basically a code of acceptable/unacceptable conduct and a system to enforce that code.

Some areas of morality are very grey indeed - if someone takes your property without permission (theft) that is said to be a criminal matter yet if you agree to sell/trade that property and they simply do not hold up their end of the deal then that is said to be a civil matter.
 
How do you figure that?

Because I specifically defined the scenario such that all of the "subjective" aspects of it are good. So if there's something wrong with the act, it can't be subjective.
 
Have we yet seen any claims about morality being “subjective” from someone who doesn't have an obvious ulterior motive, based on wanting to engage in or to defend behavior that is objectively immoral?
 
Because I specifically defined the scenario such that all of the "subjective" aspects of it are good. So if there's something wrong with the act, it can't be subjective.
The hell it can't. The idea that it is wrong is based on personal feelings.
 
Killing someone in order to take their possessions can be unacceptable (immoral?) while killing someone in self defense can be acceptable (moral?) all within the same society. Morality is basically a code of acceptable/unacceptable conduct and a system to enforce that code.

Some areas of morality are very grey indeed - if someone takes your property without permission (theft) that is said to be a criminal matter yet if you agree to sell/trade that property and they simply do not hold up their end of the deal then that is said to be a civil matter.
You are thinking too much about law. Law is amoral.

I am not discussing what is or isn't moral, I am discussing how we come to the conclusion That something is or isn't immoral. When you are talking about killing someone it's about feelings. It feels wrong. Even though we largely feel the same way It doesn't lend any credence to the idea that we feel this way because it's wrong. It's actually the opposite. It's wrong because we feel this way. If we didn't feel that way people could be seen as pigs. Many cultures cast groups in that light.
 
Morality is a weapon targeting the empathy regions of victims' brains.
 
The hell it can't. The idea that it is wrong is based on personal feelings.

No, I said that he feels fine about it. So that can't be it.
 
Listen I know this subject has had a fair share of threads started. But I have given this a lot of thought and I have to switch teams. Morality is very subjective. I have come to this position logically. But I did prompted by discussion with various people on this forum.

Before we discuss we must first define terms.
Subjective the way I mean to use it is something based on or influenced by personal feelings tastes or opinion.

Objective meaning something not based on or influenced by personal feelings tastes or opinion.

So, I have come to accept morality as subjective. I won't try and preempt any argument in the op. I am pretty confident in my ability to defend my position. But who knows it could change.

There are honestly two considerations for subjective and objective. The first is definition, and I am not sure I completely agree with how you phrased them but will say it is damn close. The second is what it *means* for something to be subjective or objective. The former is a basis for argument, the latter is an area of philosophical process.

Objective means a claim or judgement that is *assumed* to be free from personal considerations, emotional perspectives, opinions, etc. Assumed is an important qualifier, because it differentiates between things we consider truths vs. things we consider facts. System of beliefs (religion) vs. systems of process (academia.)

Subjective means a claim or judgement that is based on those personal considerations, emotional based perspectives, opinions, beliefs, etc. Assumed is not a qualifier here because there is the base assumption that all subjective claims and judgments have room for interpretation, or context, or time, or place, or condition, etc.

What that *means* to morality though is monumental.

If you were to argue that true objectivity cannot ever be achieved with the exception of perhaps core matters of systems of process (like base mathematics or physics base law) then all systems of belief as a source for what is morality are reduced to some degree of subjectivity. That submarines any effort to suggest human fallibility allows for less than concrete definitions of objectivity because of the inherent unknowns with systems of belief.

Even the earliest forms of systems of belief argue that that their beliefs are a basis for morality. A base qualifier that suggests without a system of belief (presumably theirs,) then you get "subjective morality" where moral code is dependent upon context, or time, or condition, etc. The problem is when you strip away all the foundations for all the systems of belief that humanity has come up with over our entire recorded history (some say as many as 5000 or 6000 different Gods in a host of different systems of belief over the ages) then you end up with "morality" based on a system of belief being reflective of the time. An attribute of subjectivity, not objectivity.

Because of, your thesis is generally confirmed.

Morality is and has to be subjective, all of human history in the design of what is usually considered the basis for morality (systems of belief) has been in a constant state of shift since the inception of the idea of morality. What is moral absolute today, was not quite the same 100 years ago. Let alone 1000 years ago, or even further back into the days of polytheism from the Bronze Age and before into the Neolithic Age and Stone Age. For example, we know law existed as a matter of rational consideration before law as a matter of morality came into the picture. And it is further confirmed by the notion that what was rational consideration for law then seems immoral in today's contexts. Again, shifting Morality based on time. So, subjective.

Just because we can go back and trace that generally speaking murder was considered immoral, that did not stop us all that much from a very violent human history so long as the reason for killing (or murder) was accepted. Or, again... subjective.
 
Yet we feel it's wrong. There is nothing to tell you That it's wrong other than the way you feel.

Sure there is. The fact that it causes death, which is a grievous interference in the victim's nature, tells us that it's wrong.
 
There are honestly two considerations for subjective and objective. The first is definition, and I am not sure I completely agree with how you phrased them but will say it is damn close. The second is what it *means* for something to be subjective or objective. The former is a basis for argument, the latter is an area of philosophical process.

Objective means a claim or judgement that is *assumed* to be free from personal considerations, emotional perspectives, opinions, etc. Assumed is an important qualifier, because it differentiates between things we consider truths vs. things we consider facts. System of beliefs (religion) vs. systems of process (academia.)

Subjective means a claim or judgement that is based on those personal considerations, emotional based perspectives, opinions, beliefs, etc. Assumed is not a qualifier here because there is the base assumption that all subjective claims and judgments have room for interpretation, or context, or time, or place, or condition, etc.

What that *means* to morality though is monumental.

If you were to argue that true objectivity cannot ever be achieved with the exception of perhaps core matters of systems of process (like base mathematics or physics base law) then all systems of belief as a source for what is morality are reduced to some degree of subjectivity. That submarines any effort to suggest human fallibility allows for less than concrete definitions of objectivity because of the inherent unknowns with systems of belief.

Even the earliest forms of systems of belief argue that that their beliefs are a basis for morality. A base qualifier that suggests without a system of belief (presumably theirs,) then you get "subjective morality" where moral code is dependent upon context, or time, or condition, etc. The problem is when you strip away all the foundations for all the systems of belief that humanity has come up with over our entire recorded history (some say as many as 5000 or 6000 different Gods in a host of different systems of belief over the ages) then you end up with "morality" based on a system of belief being reflective of the time. An attribute of subjectivity, not objectivity.

Because of, your thesis is generally confirmed.

Morality is and has to be subjective, all of human history in the design of what is usually considered the basis for morality (systems of belief) has been in a constant state of shift since the inception of the idea of morality. What is moral absolute today, was not quite the same 100 years ago. Let alone 1000 years ago, or even further back into the days of polytheism from the Bronze Age and before into the Neolithic Age and Stone Age. For example, we know law existed as a matter of rational consideration before law as a matter of morality came into the picture. And it is further confirmed by the notion that what was rational consideration for law then seems immoral in today's contexts. Again, shifting Morality based on time. So, subjective.

Just because we can go back and trace that generally speaking murder was considered immoral, that did not stop us all that much from a very violent human history so long as the reason for killing (or murder) was accepted. Or, again... subjective.

Beliefs are based on feelings.
 
Sure there is. The fact that it causes death, which is a grievous interference in the victim's nature, tells us that it's wrong.

This begs the question. The only reason causing an "interference with the victims nature" seems wrong, is because the way we feel. Feelings tell us that it is wrong.
 
This begs the question. The only reason causing an "interference with the victims nature" seems wrong, is because the way we feel. Feelings tell us that it is wrong.

No, that's a strawman.
 
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