Reconciling god and homosexuality

Ok.

So I really want to start this off by saying I don’t mean to sound like some militant atheist asshole but the more I think about it, the more hyperbole I hear from many more extreme Christian Leaders the more this whole thing just seems so silly to me.

I know I’m not going to convince anybody who isn’t already a totally devoted and hardcore Christian…

But doesn’t all this seem a tad strange?

I mean the bible was categorically not written by god himself… we know this for a fact and I’ve never ever been able to reconcile the idea that there’s an all-powerful god out there… somewhere… that can see everything we do, every day, all the time.

This supernatural being also created the… universe… have any of you built a star lately?

Do you have any idea what kind of power that would take?

We see the universe continuing to expand for what appears to be infinity, is god creating that or is it a natural process he set in motion?

And if you have that kind of infinite power to magically create stars, whole galaxies and infinity itself… would you really, truly care about the fact that some creatures on one planet that you created like to have relations with another of their own sex?

Do you really think that would actually be a priority of a being that powerful?

And if so why create beings that could be inclined to do so in the first place?

I know some of you will say “well god gives us free will to make right and wrong choices” but if that’s the case doesn’t that make him seem a little… well… cruel?

I mean picture this… you make it possible for beings you created to feel unbelievable lust and love for the same sex and then you threaten to send them to hell, a place of infinite torture and pain if they give in to those feelings THAT YOU ALLOWED IN THE FIRST PLACE if you accept he created man… doesn’t that seem a little crazy?

I mean how can ANYONE reconcile these ideas?

A being so infinitely powerful he created infinity itself… doesn’t like two dudes sleeping together…

That doesn't really make sense.

Jetboogieman said:

Ok.

So I really want to start this off by saying I don’t mean to sound like some militant atheist asshole but the more I think about it, the more hyperbole I hear from many more extreme Christian Leaders the more this whole thing just seems so silly to me.

I know I’m not going to convince anybody who isn’t already a totally devoted and hardcore Christian…

But doesn’t all this seem a tad strange?

I mean the bible was categorically not written by god himself… we know this for a fact and I’ve never ever been able to reconcile the idea that there’s an all-powerful god out there… somewhere… that can see everything we do, every day, all the time.

This supernatural being also created the… universe… have any of you built a star lately?

Do you have any idea what kind of power that would take?

We see the universe continuing to expand for what appears to be infinity, is god creating that or is it a natural process he set in motion?

And if you have that kind of infinite power to magically create stars, whole galaxies and infinity itself… would you really, truly care about the fact that some creatures on one planet that you created like to have relations with another of their own sex?

Do you really think that would actually be a priority of a being that powerful?

And if so why create beings that could be inclined to do so in the first place?

I know some of you will say “well god gives us free will to make right and wrong choices” but if that’s the case doesn’t that make him seem a little… well… cruel?

I mean picture this… you make it possible for beings you created to feel unbelievable lust and love for the same sex and then you threaten to send them to hell, a place of infinite torture and pain if they give in to those feelings THAT YOU ALLOWED IN THE FIRST PLACE if you accept he created man… doesn’t that seem a little crazy?

I mean how can ANYONE reconcile these ideas?

A being so infinitely powerful he created infinity itself… doesn’t like two dudes sleeping together…

That doesn't really make sense.

Click to expand...

That's why it's called faith, and not logic.

Jetboogieman said:

Ok.

So I really want to start this off by saying I don’t mean to sound like some militant atheist asshole but the more I think about it, the more hyperbole I hear from many more extreme Christian Leaders the more this whole thing just seems so silly to me.

I know I’m not going to convince anybody who isn’t already a totally devoted and hardcore Christian…

But doesn’t all this seem a tad strange?

I mean the bible was categorically not written by god himself… we know this for a fact and I’ve never ever been able to reconcile the idea that there’s an all-powerful god out there… somewhere… that can see everything we do, every day, all the time.

This supernatural being also created the… universe… have any of you built a star lately?

Do you have any idea what kind of power that would take?

We see the universe continuing to expand for what appears to be infinity, is god creating that or is it a natural process he set in motion?

And if you have that kind of infinite power to magically create stars, whole galaxies and infinity itself… would you really, truly care about the fact that some creatures on one planet that you created like to have relations with another of their own sex?

Do you really think that would actually be a priority of a being that powerful?

And if so why create beings that could be inclined to do so in the first place?

I know some of you will say “well god gives us free will to make right and wrong choices” but if that’s the case doesn’t that make him seem a little… well… cruel?

I mean picture this… you make it possible for beings you created to feel unbelievable lust and love for the same sex and then you threaten to send them to hell, a place of infinite torture and pain if they give in to those feelings THAT YOU ALLOWED IN THE FIRST PLACE if you accept he created man… doesn’t that seem a little crazy?

I mean how can ANYONE reconcile these ideas?

A being so infinitely powerful he created infinity itself… doesn’t like two dudes sleeping together…

That doesn't really make sense.

Click to expand...

It's just an agenda of moral preservation, the people that spout this are the ones who enjoy telling others how to live their lives... It has no connection with the Christian religion.

You don't even need to denounce Christianity to prove how egotistical these people are. God gives humanity free will Jesus comes and says just believe in me as your savior and you'll be free, if your attracted to other males or females you deserve to be punished in this life???? It's a complete contradiction that only makes sense when you realize that it's because they want to tell everyone how to live their lives...

It makes zero sense. I cannot understand why a supposedly compassionate being would create people to have feelings that he would punish them for acting on. It's nonsensical. This is also why I find hell itself nonsensical. Given that our choices are influenced by far more than "free will", it would be cruel to sentence us to hell making poor choices. Even a hateful racist born to a racist family was heavily influenced by the racism he grew up in. Why let him go to hell indefinitely for that? It makes no sense.

I think this is why so many Christians who believe in these nonsensical things always come back to "we can't understand God's plan" as an explanation for things.

:inandout:

It's difficult for me to comment on the OP because I don't relate to God as described.

For me God is more like what eastern faiths would call the Om, or the Dao.

The God you describe, OP, is a God with an ego, one that we perhaps cannot comprehend, but an ego nonetheless. It is a God that makes choices stemming from a self, a self which we, as lowly humans, project our wishes and values upon. This God is our object who becomes whatever we wish, from a loving God to a God that hates gays.

The Dao just is. It's pure awareness without these judgment values. As a Daoist might say, to deal with the Christian God as you describe is to engage in the 10,000 things, but the Dao contains everything and nothing at once. It is the Way, it is empty of self, it has no need to act because nothing needs to be acted upon.

It seems pretty frivolous to make appeals to God as it concerns sexuality. Just own the fact that it's coming from you and nowhere else. God doesn't care and never will. Something that is pure awareness without caprice doesn't concern itself with what humans meddle in.

ThePlayDrive said:

It makes zero sense. I cannot understand why a supposedly compassionate being would create people to have feelings that he would punish them for acting on. It's nonsensical. This is also why I find hell itself nonsensical. Given that our choices are influenced by far more than "free will", it would be cruel to sentence us to hell making poor choices. Even a hateful racist born to a racist family was heavily influenced by the racism he grew up in. Why let him go to hell indefinitely for that? It makes no sense.

I think this is why so many Christians who believe in these nonsensical things always come back to "we can't understand God's plan" as an explanation for things.

Click to expand...

Do you wish that instead of free will everything was simply perfect?

Libertie76 said:

It's just an agenda of moral preservation, the people that spout this are the ones who enjoy telling others how to live their lives... It has no connection with the Christian religion....

Click to expand...

No, it's just denoted as a sin in about a dozen places in our holy book, so obviously there's no connection to the Christian religion... (/irony) :roll:

Jetboogieman said:

That doesn't really make sense.

Click to expand...

The basic problem with your thinking is the assumption of what religion is and is not. Philosophically and logically offering to you, we already know that religious beliefs are simply that... beliefs. What they are not is empirical claims, nor intended to be instruments of logic, or science, or much else. Just notions of social order and controls, pertinent to the time frame of the text in question. That said it is then easy for us to apply logic, and even philosophical principles, to point out the numerous flaws in religious text.

Made perfect sense yesterday in terms of the common beliefs of the period, today not so much but still followed based on the premise of afterlife implications.

When you apply that reasoning to today's application of religious principles, you force one of two conditions to occur. Either evolution of the thinking (fairly rare,) or the application of catch all statements to counter challenge what logic is asking. Like "Gods ways are not our ways" or "God gives us free will to choose salvation or damnation" (more common response.) The other key thing to consider here is systems of belief do not like being told they may be wrong, which is why we end up with conflict more than understanding.

To your points there is no effort to reconcile all those ideas. One, that is not the point of the systems of belief. You are to accept, not analyze for flaws. Two, the life lessons and social controls are the overriding factor to consider. And those do not necessarily have to make sense, just be followed as the "word of God(s)."

Jetboogieman said:

Ok.

So I really want to start this off by saying I don’t mean to sound like some militant atheist asshole but the more I think about it, the more hyperbole I hear from many more extreme Christian Leaders the more this whole thing just seems so silly to me.

I know I’m not going to convince anybody who isn’t already a totally devoted and hardcore Christian…

But doesn’t all this seem a tad strange?

I mean the bible was categorically not written by god himself… we know this for a fact and I’ve never ever been able to reconcile the idea that there’s an all-powerful god out there… somewhere… that can see everything we do, every day, all the time.

This supernatural being also created the… universe… have any of you built a star lately?

...I mean picture this… you make it possible for beings you created to feel unbelievable lust and love for the same sex and then you threaten to send them to hell, a place of infinite torture and pain if they give in to those feelings THAT YOU ALLOWED IN THE FIRST PLACE if you accept he created man… doesn’t that seem a little crazy?

I mean how can ANYONE reconcile these ideas?

A being so infinitely powerful he created infinity itself… doesn’t like two dudes sleeping together…

That doesn't really make sense.

Click to expand...

Jet, the questions or postulations set forth in your OP would require at least two books and an essay to even begin to answer in full.

Basically, you're asking if there is a Universe Creator God, why would he give a crap about humans and what we do to each other?

One answer is: well, if he doesn't, then there isn't much point in paying any attention to the whole idea of God in the first place. If he's indifferent to us, what reason would we have not to return that indifference?

But if we're talking about a truly omniscient God, "who knows every sparrow that falls" (and I'd say knows which way every electron is going to jump before it is observed!) then it's not as if we're "Beneath" his notice... his computational power is clearly infinite and He has plenty to spare for caring about his sentient creations. (i.e. humans being the only ones we know of just yet.)

If God does indeed care about us, then does it not make sense that He would have some kind of message, some kind of plan, for His Creation? I think it does follow, yes.


Now that brings us to the question of WHAT (or perhaps WHICH) do you believe in terms of where God's will or Word can be found? There are many different religions.


I can't speak for anyone else, but Christianity is the religion which rings true to me and inspires my heart.


Now, operating on the assumption that God is, that He cares about his human creations, and that He has some kind of path/plan/message/etc for us... well you pays your money and you believes what speaks to your heart. Now we get to "what does God care who sticks which body part in whom?"

Well, my chosen path is Christianity, and we have this book the Bible we believe was written by men inspired by God, and that it contains God's message/path/plan for humanity. In there, we find a whole lotta places where it certainly seems like God does not smile on the same-sex relations. Those of us who believe upon the Bible look at that and say, "Well... it says what it says, and unless we find a good reason within the context of our beliefs and Book to think that it doesn't apply anymore, we have to go by what it says."

Fundamentally, that's why.

Now it occurs to me that this is probably not a sufficient answer for you... that maybe you're still wondering why it matters to God if some people want to put Part A into Part C instead of into Part B as the instructions say (irony intended).

Offhand, I don't know. Maybe violating OEM operating standards causes some kind of spiritual problems that are not evident to our limited senses and intellect. (metaphor intended.)

I also have to assume that no one is born with an unavoidable, uncontrollable compulsion to violate OEM operating standards. (ie no one is born unavoidably, irresistibly homosexual.)

If you're not operating according to OEM standards and you're not in my department, I guess it is no skin off my nose. (IE if you're gay and not a Christian I guess it's not my business.)

I mostly only get uptight when someone tries to tell me that MY department has to validate violating OEM standards. (IE if you try to tell me Christianity must validate gay-is-ok.) ... because they are as written. :shrug:



I hope that helped a little...

JC Callender said:

Do you wish that instead of free will everything was simply perfect?

Click to expand...

No, I just don't think people should punished for acting on feelings that they were created to have.

ThePlayDrive said:

No, I just don't think people should punished for acting on feelings that they were created to have.

Click to expand...

I constantly see things that other people have, that I wish I had, but cannot afford. If I act on my feelings, by stealing one of these things, should I be punished?

I see attractive women, other than my wife, and sometimes feel a desire to pursue a romantic/sexual relationship with them. If I act on these feelings, and cheat on my wife and betray my marriage, should I be punished?

Sometimes, other people make me angry, to the point that I would like to harm them, or perhaps even kill them. If I act on those feelings, should I be punished?

We were create to have free will; to know good and evil, to be tempted toward evil, and to choose whether to give in to that temptation. We were created to make choices, and to learn from our experiences. God has great plans in store for us, if we will make the right choices, and learn the right lessons; but it is up to us. He won't force us, and ultimately, if we make the wrong choices, we will be responsible for the consequences thereof.

What you want is a world in which we have no choice, no free will, only good, and no capacity for evil. With that, no capacity to learn, to grow, to develop toward God's purpose for us. That was Lucifer's plan, that he arrogantly sought to have put in effect in place of God's plan.

well this is why i suspect so many will cling to the idea homosexuality is a conscious choice, so that god had nothing to do with it

Goshin said:

I mostly only get uptight when someone tries to tell me that MY department has to validate violating OEM standards. (IE if you try to tell me Christianity must validate gay-is-ok.) ... because they are as written. :shrug:



I hope that helped a little...

Click to expand...

no one gives a damn about this. You've made it clear at various points you like to start crap about this with others, and you did what you could to prevent gay rights. THIS is what they object to, but you see it as being attacked like you did nothing wrong.

Almost everyone with the *opinion* that homosexuality is wrong ALSO acts on those views to be a bully and oppress. All the voter ballots across various states, cross referenced with polling over the years confirms this

chromium said:

well this is why i suspect so many will cling to the idea homosexuality is a conscious choice, so that god had nothing to do with it

Click to expand...

I don't know that it is.

I don't have a conscious choice not to covet the possessions of others.

I don't have a conscious choice not to be attracted to women other than my wife.

I don't have a conscious choice not to become angry, and to desire to commit acts of violence against those who have angered me.

I do have a conscious choice whether and how to act on these feelings, and it is how I make this choice that God will judge me. I have the choice not to steal, not to cheat on my wife, and not to commit acts of violence.

Gee, another Christian bashing thread in the philosophical discussions forum. Never saw that one coming. :roll:

chromium said:

no one gives a damn about this. You've made it clear at various points you like to start crap about this with others, and you did what you could to prevent gay rights. THIS is what they object to, but you see it as being attacked like you did nothing wrong.

Almost everyone with the *opinion* that homosexuality is wrong ALSO acts on those views to be a bully and oppress. All the voter ballots across various states, cross referenced with polling over the years confirms this

Click to expand...

I do, I thought it was very thoughtful and conciliatory to those who may disagree. I think you're the one doing the bullying.

chromium said:

no one gives a damn about this. You've made it clear at various points you like to start crap about this with others, and you did what you could to prevent gay rights. THIS is what they object to, but you see it as being attacked like you did nothing wrong.

Almost everyone with the *opinion* that homosexuality is wrong ALSO acts on those views to be a bully and oppress. All the voter ballots across various states, cross referenced with polling over the years confirms this

Click to expand...

Yes, I figured out some time ago that you hate me. Thanks for the reminder.

I have never voted on gay rights as such... the opportunity never came up. All this stuff has been done in the courts.

I've never voted for a candidate solely based on his SSM position. Actually most candidates I've voted for I wasn't even aware what their position on SSM was.

Would I have ever knowingly voted for a pro-SSM candidate? Probably not to be honest. Not unless the other guy was a hot mess I wanted no part of.


Most of my life SSM wasn't even on the radar as something that would ever be legal in this country... not until rather recently (recently by my standards).

No, I don't agree with it... but it is done, it is law of the land, I understand the reasons why, and I will try to cope with the changes and carry on much as usual.

What I won't do is proclaim something "ok" when I don't believe it is.... sorry if that offends you.


You've won.... why do you care what I think?

Bob Blaylock said:

I don't know that it is.

I don't have a conscious choice not to covet the possessions of others.

I don't have a conscious choice not to be attracted to women other than my wife.

I don't have a conscious choice not to become angry, and to desire to commit acts of violence against those who have angered me.

I do have a conscious choice whether and how to act on these feelings, and it is how I make this choice that God will judge me. I have the choice not to steal, not to cheat on my wife, and not to commit acts of violence.

Click to expand...

if you weren't able to act on attraction to your wife or any other female either you'd be singing a different tune no doubt. Your analogies are totally out of proportion. I can get by fine even if i have a temporary occasional feeling of coveting, or anger. Sexual attractions are about the 4th strongest urge, behind eating, ****ting, and sleep and the implication of not acting on them is usually remaining single.

i'm especially not going to throw my life away living alone and celibate because you or some ancient book tells me to

Goshin said:

Yes, I figured out some time ago that you hate me. Thanks for the reminder.

I have never voted on gay rights as such... the opportunity never came up. All this stuff has been done in the courts.

I've never voted for a candidate solely based on his SSM position. Actually most candidates I've voted for I wasn't even aware what their position on SSM was.

Would I have ever knowingly voted for a pro-SSM candidate? Probably not to be honest. Not unless the other guy was a hot mess I wanted no part of.


Most of my life SSM wasn't even on the radar as something that would ever be legal in this country... not until rather recently (recently by my standards).

No, I don't agree with it... but it is done, it is law of the land, I understand the reasons why, and I will try to cope with the changes and carry on much as usual.

What I won't do is proclaim something "ok" when I don't believe it is.... sorry if that offends you.


You've won.... why do you care what I think?

Click to expand...

Yes, that must be really difficult for you to cope. I'm sure it'll impact your life greatly

As i said i don't give a damn what you think, nor does it offend me, being as you're one of billions with these views. However, it is a debate forum so i find this complaint weak.

On the one occasion you seemed to reach out in the only way you know how, to ask for biblical support to change your mind, i tried to help, you ignored it and the others. That's your prerogative but as you're closed off to any other path, there's nothing left to be done.

But don't pretend anyone is out to persecute you for your beliefs, in the way lgbt have been persecuted because of those beliefs, just because they can now marry. That isn't going to win any sympathy, and it's been a frequent tactic the past week

JC Callender said:

I do, I thought it was very thoughtful and conciliatory to those who may disagree. I think you're the one doing the bullying.

Click to expand...

tell us some more about how this is your 9/11 and you'll all be hauled off to concentration camps

Jetboogieman said:

Ok.

So I really want to start this off by saying I don’t mean to sound like some militant atheist asshole but the more I think about it, the more hyperbole I hear from many more extreme Christian Leaders the more this whole thing just seems so silly to me.

I know I’m not going to convince anybody who isn’t already a totally devoted and hardcore Christian…

But doesn’t all this seem a tad strange?

I mean the bible was categorically not written by god himself… we know this for a fact and I’ve never ever been able to reconcile the idea that there’s an all-powerful god out there… somewhere… that can see everything we do, every day, all the time.

This supernatural being also created the… universe… have any of you built a star lately?

Do you have any idea what kind of power that would take?

We see the universe continuing to expand for what appears to be infinity, is god creating that or is it a natural process he set in motion?

And if you have that kind of infinite power to magically create stars, whole galaxies and infinity itself… would you really, truly care about the fact that some creatures on one planet that you created like to have relations with another of their own sex?

Do you really think that would actually be a priority of a being that powerful?

And if so why create beings that could be inclined to do so in the first place?

I know some of you will say “well god gives us free will to make right and wrong choices” but if that’s the case doesn’t that make him seem a little… well… cruel?

I mean picture this… you make it possible for beings you created to feel unbelievable lust and love for the same sex and then you threaten to send them to hell, a place of infinite torture and pain if they give in to those feelings THAT YOU ALLOWED IN THE FIRST PLACE if you accept he created man… doesn’t that seem a little crazy?

I mean how can ANYONE reconcile these ideas?

A being so infinitely powerful he created infinity itself… doesn’t like two dudes sleeping together…

That doesn't really make sense.

Click to expand...

It's difficult to reconcile two things, one of which is a social phenomenon, the other of which is imaginary. So forgive me for not trying.

chromium said:

if you weren't able to act on attraction to your wife or any other female either you'd be singing a different tune no doubt. Your analogies are totally out of proportion. I can get by fine even if i have a temporary occasional feeling of coveting, or anger. Sexual attractions are about the 4th strongest urge, behind eating, ****ting, and sleep and the implication of not acting on them is usually remaining single.

i'm especially not going to throw my life away living alone and celibate because you or some ancient book tells me to

Click to expand...

And if you are sexually attracted to children?

Fletch said:

And if you are sexually attracted to children?

Click to expand...

Take holy orders?

Fletch said:

And if you are sexually attracted to children?

Click to expand...

are you trying to tell us something?