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Reconciling god and homosexuality

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Where's your evidence that God is just "good," and doesn't mete out justice for evil-doing? And where would you think 'evil' people go when they die?

For someone who claims to know a whole lot about Judaism, you don't seem to understand the basic theology. Judaism largely holds that god actually kills bad people. This is reflected in the flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. God doesn't judge people when they die and stay out of their lives to respect free will, he straight up murders evildoers. (As an aside, the sin of the two cities was their cruelty to strangers and extravagant abuse of their wealth, not homosexuality.)

Every year on Yom Kippur, god decides if you've been good enough to survive the coming year. You spend the week beforehand praying and repenting and confessing sins (this is where Christianity appropriated confession from) so that god will write you into the book of life and you get to keep living. There's even a prayer talking about god deciding how each person will die. Clearly, this god does not respect free will very much. But you can temper god's harsh justice by doing good deeds, being charitable, and earnestly praying for forgiveness. This is a weird anachronism in Reform Judaism (and sometimes in Conservative Judaism, a less reformed, more middle of the road denomination), where god is a much nicer person every other part of the year.

Now, most modern Jews don't really believe this literally, as we are all quite capable of observing the world around us and seeing that a person's lifespan has little to do with their morality. Reform Judaism (the largest denomination of Judaism in the United States) takes a much more vague and touchy-feely approach to god, portraying him as just an abstract force for good. God loves all, god forgives all. But god doesn't really intervene anymore. In fact, a lot of Judaism involves complaining about how marginalized Jews are in the world and being grateful to god for at least stopping all of the times when other people have tried to completely wipe us out. This is why the Holocaust shook the faith of so many Jews. In reality, it was merely Christians murdering Jews (and many others) en masse. But the idea that god could allow such a horrific genocide, wiping entire family trees out and not protecting them from that cruelty. Judaism is based on god choosing, loving, and protecting this group of people. Protecting Jews from the violence of the world is a big theme in Judaism, and god dropped the ball pretty hard in the 1930s and 40s. Reform Judaism is, I imagine, somewhat of an attempt to reconcile this by adopting the modern view of a god that is detached from our world. This is a popular god with posters on this forum. The problem, of course, is when belief in that god ends up giving support to people like you, who think that god actually wants us to enact horrific cruelties on his behalf.

Now, back to Jewish theology. One big thing that you seem not to understand about Judaism is that it doesn't really include an afterlife. It has bits and pieces here and there, but it's not a central focus of the religion at all, not the way it is for Christianity and Islam (because they appropriated the rich afterlife from Greek and Roman myths). You don't really go anywhere when you die. Sure, there's some Kabbalah stuff that deals with Sheol and the like, but that's pretty fringe. Judaism is much more focused on the here and now, and not eternal souls. This is not merely with Reform Judaism, but basically all of it. God's judgment is happening now, and will happen when the messiah comes. It doesn't happen when you die. And that judgement involves our lives here, not our afterlives. Evil people, as you put it, don't go anywhere. No one does. There's even notions that everyone will come back to life when the messiah comes and god basically conquers the world and rules it like a king (one of the more important bits in the story that Jesus didn't do).

Of course, those are just beliefs and they are, of course, nonsense. And it's funny that you ask for evidence, since there obviously isn't any, since there are no gods to produce such evidence. You are one of the former people I referred to in my first post. You worship a very sad and cynical god. Maybe if the much fluffier Reform Jewish god was the most popular one, then god would have a much better reputation. Instead, it's the evil one that you like, who basically only puts us here on earth to make our lives miserable so that he can separate out people who care more about their fellow human beings than about being his servants, and then throw them into a big fire while he surrounds himself with sycophants on a cloud.
 
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It's difficult to reconcile that kind of evil god with a lot of the real world. It's a lot easier to reconcile a generally good god with such things, though as above, the Holocaust is a pretty big sticking point there. That one is easy to reconcile with your evil god. Jews weren't serving him properly, so he let someone who was kill a whole lot of them. But something like love and family being universal, regardless of sexual orientation, that squares easy with a loving Reform Jewish type god, and with great difficulty with the evil brand of Christianity that you prefer.

I dont know about the concept of 'evil', but I wonder if people like Pasch would apply universal meaning to his comments. Oh...there are pathological liars? Well...God must want them to be happy. Oh...there are sociopaths? Well...God must want them to be happy. Oh...there are people with natural violent tendencies that get off on brutally assaulting women? Well...God must want them to be happy. Hey...how about those people that have mental health disabilities...I am sure God just wants them to suffer from depression. He did after all make them that way. Whats that you say? People that are predisposed to sexual contact with animals and children? Well...I am sure God wants them to be happy.

Or is it just THIS ONE THING...this ONE behavior that God declared sinful that he REALLY means keep doing it and be happy about it.

Its so blatantly obvious that this all revolves around what people WANT to be true...and not what IS true.

God didn't create anything. God is a fictional character, created by human beings. Nature, which is sometimes a bit haphazard, created pathological liars, sociopaths, violence, and brutality. But nature isn't an anthropomorphic creature. Nature is just a process. It doesn't deal with morality, only efficiency. Morality is a wholly human endeavor. So no,, god doesn't want anyone to be happy, because there is no god to want anything. That such things are a part of humanity is pretty solid evidence that there is no god creating and controlling everything. Since there are pathological liars and sociopaths, that is, people who cannot help but be evil, then either they are that way by a coincidence of natural processes, or a god created them that way, bereft of free will. The latter contradicts any notion of a god who respects our ability to choose between good and evil.

And, of course, it's not this one ancient law that people ignore now. A whole lot of Jews eat pork. I grew up eating shellfish. A lot of Jews marry outside the faith. We wear clothing that is made from different fabrics. We don't sacrifice animals. Reform Judaism is all about not taking the old rules seriously, because they were obviously the products of ancient cultures that, fortunately, we aren't a part of. Instead, it has modern rules, based on the modern world.

God made them all that way? I don't think so. There is a devil running amok too who tempts people to sin. There's also been entropy and environmental genetic abnormalities, etc., since the 'fall' of man and nature.

Besides, a great many people would like to engage in adultery and other immoral behaviors but they don't do it, because it's bad for them and society.

And yet god created the devil, knowing full well what would happen. Use of an intermediary, who is ultimately powerless in the face of an omnipotent god, does not absolve god of this act. A god who creates a devil and uses that devil to create evil is the same as a god who creates that evil himself.

This is one more element that Christianity and Islam appropriated from other sources that Judaism doesn't bother with at all. The fall from Eden isn't nearly so much a defining characteristic of humanity in Judaism. It's really just an explanation myth. Jews don't believe that we all have to make up for a single act in the distant past or that we need redemption from it. Reform Jews certainly take the position that our sins are our own and only our own. No one is responsible for the transgressions of their ancestors.

So, ultimately, in answer to the OP, and to you, reconciling good things in the world is easy when you believe in a good god (and even easier when you don't believe in one at all), while reconciling evil things in the world is easy when you believe in an evil god (also easier when you don't believe in any gods). But it seems that believing in an evil god makes it really hard to accept good things in the world.
 
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It's difficult to reconcile that kind of evil god with a lot of the real world. It's a lot easier to reconcile a generally good god with such things, though as above, the Holocaust is a pretty big sticking point there. That one is easy to reconcile with your evil god. Jews weren't serving him properly, so he let someone who was kill a whole lot of them. But something like love and family being universal, regardless of sexual orientation, that squares easy with a loving Reform Jewish type god, and with great difficulty with the evil brand of Christianity that you prefer.



God didn't create anything. God is a fictional character, created by human beings. Nature, which is sometimes a bit haphazard, created pathological liars, sociopaths, violence, and brutality. But nature isn't an anthropomorphic creature. Nature is just a process. It doesn't deal with morality, only efficiency. Morality is a wholly human endeavor. So no,, god doesn't want anyone to be happy, because there is no god to want anything. That such things are a part of humanity is pretty solid evidence that there is no god creating and controlling everything. Since there are pathological liars and sociopaths, that is, people who cannot help but be evil, then either they are that way by a coincidence of natural processes, or a god created them that way, bereft of free will. The latter contradicts any notion of a god who respects our ability to choose between good and evil.

And, of course, it's not this one ancient law that people ignore now. A whole lot of Jews eat pork. I grew up eating shellfish. A lot of Jews marry outside the faith. We wear clothing that is made from different fabrics. We don't sacrifice animals. Reform Judaism is all about not taking the old rules seriously, because they were obviously the products of ancient cultures that, fortunately, we aren't a part of. Instead, it has modern rules, based on the modern world.



And yet god created the devil, knowing full well what would happen. Use of an intermediary, who is ultimately powerless in the face of an omnipotent god, does not absolve god of this act. A god who creates a devil and uses that devil to create evil is the same as a god who creates that evil himself.

This is one more element that Christianity and Islam appropriated from other sources that Judaism doesn't bother with at all. The fall from Eden isn't nearly so much a defining characteristic of humanity in Judaism. It's really just an explanation myth. Jews don't believe that we all have to make up for a single act in the distant past or that we need redemption from it. Reform Jews certainly take the position that our sins are our own and only our own. No one is responsible for the transgressions of their ancestors.

So, ultimately, in answer to the OP, and to you, reconciling good things in the world is easy when you believe in a good god (and even easier when you don't believe in one at all), while reconciling evil things in the world is easy when you believe in an evil god (also easier when you don't believe in any gods). But it seems that believing in an evil god makes it really hard to accept good things in the world.
As I have said...if you dont believe in God, none of this is relevant. If you do, its rather pathetic that you claim God endorses happiness for and celebration of the 'sinful' acts of these flawed beings but not all flawed beings.

And since you believe there is no God, morality is relative-subjective...correct? There is no good or bad...only what we WANT.
 
If an all powerful being doesn't like something, let that all powerful being stop it.

If humans dislike something, let humans stop it.
 
As I have said...if you dont believe in God, none of this is relevant. If you do, its rather pathetic that you claim God endorses happiness for and celebration of the 'sinful' acts of these flawed beings but not all flawed beings.

I'm not claiming anything. I'm explaining the beliefs of Reform Judaism, which expressly endorses equality for gays and has for a long time. Reform Jews have no problem reconciling god and homosexuality.

And since you believe there is no God, morality is relative-subjective...correct? There is no good or bad...only what we WANT.

No, it's biological. Morality can be objective without being magic. It comes from our genes and our evolution.
 
I'm not claiming anything. I'm explaining the beliefs of Reform Judaism, which expressly endorses equality for gays and has for a long time. Reform Jews have no problem reconciling god and homosexuality.



No, it's biological. Morality can be objective without being magic. It comes from our genes and our evolution.
Ah...so morality is a genetic construct.

:lamo

No...there's not. Thats the bailout position of people that cant otherwise explain a foundation of right and wrong. Thats you 'reconciling'.

Reformists ALWAYS look for ways to make things fit THEIR belief system.
 
Now, back to Jewish theology. One big thing that you seem not to understand about Judaism is that it doesn't really include an afterlife. It has bits and pieces here and there, but it's not a central focus of the religion at all, not the way it is for Christianity and Islam (because they appropriated the rich afterlife from Greek and Roman myths). You don't really go anywhere when you die. Sure, there's some Kabbalah stuff that deals with Sheol and the like, but that's pretty fringe. Judaism is much more focused on the here and now, and not eternal souls. This is not merely with Reform Judaism, but basically all of it. God's judgment is happening now, and will happen when the messiah comes. It doesn't happen when you die. And that judgement involves our lives here, not our afterlives. Evil people, as you put it, don't go anywhere. No one does. There's even notions that everyone will come back to life when the messiah comes and god basically conquers the world and rules it like a king (one of the more important bits in the story that Jesus didn't do).

Daniel 12:2 - "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

What place is this where Judaism teaches that some will awake to shame and everlasting contempt?

Also note the 23rd Psalm, where David will "dwell in the House of the Lord forever."

And there's more from the OT but those will suffice for now.

You worship a very sad and cynical god. Maybe if the much fluffier Reform Jewish god was the most popular one, then god would have a much better reputation. Instead, it's the evil one that you like, who basically only puts us here on earth to make our lives miserable so that he can separate out people who care more about their fellow human beings than about being his servants, and then throw them into a big fire while he surrounds himself with sycophants on a cloud.

If I worship a sad and cynical God then so do you, only you ignore the scriptures that puts a dagger in the heart of your arguments.

But the fact is my God - the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - is a great and mighty God and has already saved me unto eternal life in heaven (John 5:24, etc.).
 
Ok.

So I really want to start this off by saying I don’t mean to sound like some militant atheist asshole but the more I think about it, the more hyperbole I hear from many more extreme Christian Leaders the more this whole thing just seems so silly to me.

I know I’m not going to convince anybody who isn’t already a totally devoted and hardcore Christian…

But doesn’t all this seem a tad strange?

I mean the bible was categorically not written by god himself… we know this for a fact and I’ve never ever been able to reconcile the idea that there’s an all-powerful god out there… somewhere… that can see everything we do, every day, all the time.

This supernatural being also created the… universe… have any of you built a star lately?

Do you have any idea what kind of power that would take?

We see the universe continuing to expand for what appears to be infinity, is god creating that or is it a natural process he set in motion?

And if you have that kind of infinite power to magically create stars, whole galaxies and infinity itself… would you really, truly care about the fact that some creatures on one planet that you created like to have relations with another of their own sex?

Do you really think that would actually be a priority of a being that powerful?

And if so why create beings that could be inclined to do so in the first place?

I know some of you will say “well god gives us free will to make right and wrong choices” but if that’s the case doesn’t that make him seem a little… well… cruel?

I mean picture this… you make it possible for beings you created to feel unbelievable lust and love for the same sex and then you threaten to send them to hell, a place of infinite torture and pain if they give in to those feelings THAT YOU ALLOWED IN THE FIRST PLACE if you accept he created man… doesn’t that seem a little crazy?

I mean how can ANYONE reconcile these ideas?

A being so infinitely powerful he created infinity itself… doesn’t like two dudes sleeping together…

That doesn't really make sense.
God didn't make any such threat to send anyone to hell over homosexuality.

You said it yourself, man wrote the bible, not god.

That means men made the threat. If there's a hell and if there's an authority who sends people there, it's certanly not men.

So there's nothing to reconsile here. Men making threats to other men for verious reasons, is nothing new.

/thread
 
It's just an agenda of moral preservation, the people that spout this are the ones who enjoy telling others how to live their lives... It has no connection with the Christian religion.

You don't even need to denounce Christianity to prove how egotistical these people are. God gives humanity free will Jesus comes and says just believe in me as your savior and you'll be free, if your attracted to other males or females you deserve to be punished in this life???? It's a complete contradiction that only makes sense when you realize that it's because they want to tell everyone how to live their lives...

The bold is the most important statement and the only true response to the hatred.
 
The bold is the most important statement and the only true response to the hatred.

Jesus also told people to repent of their sins or they would perish (Luke 13:3). Where's the repentance from the gays?? It's not there, so unless they repent, they're lost.
 
Jesus also told people to repent of their sins or they would perish (Luke 13:3). Where's the repentance from the gays?? It's not there, so unless they repent, they're lost.

Where's the repentance from Christians when they tell people how they live their lives, and basing it on a subjective viewpoint of a 2000 year old document??

If one of my parents decides they are gay do I continually honor that person??? If I do and say well I can always repent later that takes away the purpose of repent, if I don't and say well I can always repent later that takes out the purpose. How can you possibly honor the word of god in that scenario??
 
Jesus also told people to repent of their sins or they would perish (Luke 13:3). Where's the repentance from the gays?? It's not there, so unless they repent, they're lost.

So there is no forgiveness then? And I guess everyone who is divorced is going to burn in hell too right?

And let me ask you a question: how do you think God will feel about someone telling others they will burn in hell for living their life? Someone who intentionally will ostracize someone from their family and friends? Someone who wants go make others feel awful? Someone who wants to destroy happiness just so they can "feel better" knowing they spread their version of faith? How do you think God will feel about someone trying to dominate faith with their own brand of unabashed hatred?
 
Ok.

So I really want to start this off by saying I don’t mean to sound like some militant atheist asshole but the more I think about it, the more hyperbole I hear from many more extreme Christian Leaders the more this whole thing just seems so silly to me.

well you just shot yourself in this argument. they are not extreme Christian leaders. they are people that are standing up for what they believe in according to their religious beliefs. PS they are not extreme in the least. if you want extreme views on homosexuality then go to the middle east or to Russia. there you will see extremist views.

I know I’m not going to convince anybody who isn’t already a totally devoted and hardcore Christian…

But doesn’t all this seem a tad strange?

no more strange then you standing up for what you believe. someone could consider you extreme militant atheist give your view so far.

I mean the bible was categorically not written by god himself… we know this for a fact and I’ve never ever been able to reconcile the idea that there’s an all-powerful god out there… somewhere… that can see everything we do, every day, all the time.

Right the bible was inspired by the Word of God. Written down by his prophets and His followers. Of course not. The bible says this is the case with the majority of people. That they are blinded to their own mind. No one can actually reconcile God. We can have an understanding of Him, but to try and perceive him in his fullness is not possible. Our brain cannot wrap around the concept of infinity.

This supernatural being also created the… universe… have any of you built a star lately?
why do we have to build stars for God to be able to do it? this is illogical.

Do you have any idea what kind of power that would take?
Not much to a being that has infinite power.

We see the universe continuing to expand for what appears to be infinity, is god creating that or is it a natural process he set in motion?

Most Christians believe that God created the universe and set it in motion and it runs according to the laws that he put in place.
Gravity, sub-space, black holes, etc etc etc... is all designed and implemented to work the way they were designed.

And if you have that kind of infinite power to magically create stars, whole galaxies and infinity itself… would you really, truly care about the fact that some creatures on one planet that you created like to have relations with another of their own sex?

Because if you have that kind of power you also have the ability to set morality. The Russian philosopher Dostoevsky said(paraphrase here): If God does not exist then anything is permissible or allowable. This backs up what it says in Judges: In that day there was no King in Israel and people did what was right in their own eyes.

Do you really think that would actually be a priority of a being that powerful?
And if so why create beings that could be inclined to do so in the first place?
he didn't create man to do that. The whole result of homosexuality, beastiality, rape, murder, gender confusion, etc, etc etc ... is sin.

I know some of you will say “well god gives us free will to make right and wrong choices” but if that’s the case doesn’t that make him seem a little… well… cruel?
Not at all. God already had beings without free will. they are called angels. they praise and worship God as they were created to do.
They have no choice. God wanted to create a being that would love Him by choice.

I mean picture this… you make it possible for beings you created to feel unbelievable lust and love for the same sex and then you threaten to send them to hell, a place of infinite torture and pain if they give in to those feelings THAT YOU ALLOWED IN THE FIRST PLACE if you accept he created man… doesn’t that seem a little crazy?

as it says in Genesis 2 they were both naked and not ashamed. it wasn't till after man sinned that they realized they were naked and became ashamed of themselves knowing good and evil right and wrong. God didn't allow those feelings that is where you are wrong. Yep he did create man, but he created man without sin.

I mean how can ANYONE reconcile these ideas?
A being so infinitely powerful he created infinity itself… doesn’t like two dudes sleeping together…

Because if you understand the day and age then you understand why.
Israel was a closed knit society. Homosexuality would kill the population levels. next Israel was to be different from their neighbors.
Next disease. even today risk of STD's is huge among the homosexual population. U.S. Gay Men's Astonishing HIV/STD Rates | The Bilerico Project
now image that in a limited population size. it would be devastating.
 
Where's the repentance from Christians when they tell people how they live their lives, and basing it on a subjective viewpoint of a 2000 year old document??

Listen, even if that were a sin, and it's highly doubtful it is, it doesn't relieve gays of the obligation of repenting for their sins, or they will perish.
 
Listen, even if that were a sin, and it's highly doubtful it is, it doesn't relieve gays of the obligation of repenting for their sins, or they will perish.

if god says "free will", and you restrict free will, especially through a social entity like the state, it literally means you are defying the will of god. Wouldn't that be a mortal sin?
 
if god says "free will", and you restrict free will, especially through a social entity like the state, it literally means you are defying the will of god. Wouldn't that be a mortal sin?

Nope. Because God said there would be consequences for sin.

Have you ever studied the Bible?
 
Gee, another Christian bashing thread in the philosophical discussions forum. Never saw that one coming. :roll:

It looks more like Christians bashing everyone who disagrees with them to me.
 
Nope. Because God said there would be consequences for sin.

Have you ever studied the Bible?

Yes god said there would be consequences for sin, however when a religion uses the state to enforce "god's will" does that not make the state a false idol? Meaning, if god wished to punish gay people for being gay shouldn't he do it himself instead of having a different vessel do it according for him? How can i possibly know that the state restricting a gay person from getting married is actually the word of god, and not just a neo-pietist sentiment attempting to create an illusive false representation of god. Meaning, if i forward my allegence to a state that restricts gays from getting married rather then being a christian that interposes society for my own religious reasons while maintaining the jesus code of ethics which intensible allows people to chose their own path to rightousness would i not, then, relieve myself of all possible worshiping of a false idol, i.e, the state?

In retrospect should we also not allow other people to practice their own religion for the same princeples you propose for gay people? How many times have you seen a full-hearted orthodox jew repent for being jewish?
 
I'm hanging out in the gayborhood right now, literally looking straight at a church with a sign "progressive religion inside, we welcome all relationships."

Everyone is welcome in gods house and don't let bigots, or former bigots like myself, stop you from finding your own spirituality
 
Nope. Because God said there would be consequences for sin.

Have you ever studied the Bible?

What is the consequence for spreading hate and judging others? Divorce? As far as I could see...the bible said there was forgiveness for sins.
 
Ok.

So I really want to start this off by saying I don’t mean to sound like some militant atheist asshole but the more I think about it, the more hyperbole I hear from many more extreme Christian Leaders the more this whole thing just seems so silly to me.

I know I’m not going to convince anybody who isn’t already a totally devoted and hardcore Christian…

But doesn’t all this seem a tad strange?

I mean the bible was categorically not written by god himself… we know this for a fact and I’ve never ever been able to reconcile the idea that there’s an all-powerful god out there… somewhere… that can see everything we do, every day, all the time.

This supernatural being also created the… universe… have any of you built a star lately?

Do you have any idea what kind of power that would take?

We see the universe continuing to expand for what appears to be infinity, is god creating that or is it a natural process he set in motion?

And if you have that kind of infinite power to magically create stars, whole galaxies and infinity itself… would you really, truly care about the fact that some creatures on one planet that you created like to have relations with another of their own sex?

Do you really think that would actually be a priority of a being that powerful?

And if so why create beings that could be inclined to do so in the first place?

I know some of you will say “well god gives us free will to make right and wrong choices” but if that’s the case doesn’t that make him seem a little… well… cruel?

I mean picture this… you make it possible for beings you created to feel unbelievable lust and love for the same sex and then you threaten to send them to hell, a place of infinite torture and pain if they give in to those feelings THAT YOU ALLOWED IN THE FIRST PLACE if you accept he created man… doesn’t that seem a little crazy?

I mean how can ANYONE reconcile these ideas?

A being so infinitely powerful he created infinity itself… doesn’t like two dudes sleeping together…

That doesn't really make sense.

If you're so powerful that you can do and have anything - I don't think it strange at all to make laws and demand VOLUNTARY obedience from your creation!
That would be a novelty, don't you think so?

I'd seen this movie about the gods in Olympus having a bet among each other, and watching the mortals below. It was entertainment for them.

We don't know what God's purpose is.
 
Where's the repentance from Christians when they tell people how they live their lives, and basing it on a subjective viewpoint of a 2000 year old document??

If one of my parents decides they are gay do I continually honor that person??? If I do and say well I can always repent later that takes away the purpose of repent, if I don't and say well I can always repent later that takes out the purpose. How can you possibly honor the word of god in that scenario??
You are being intentionally silly...right? You mean you REALLY cant see how you could love your parent, honor their role as parent, and still not condone the sin?
I love my sister in law as a person. I treasure her as my sister in law. I dont condone her choice to live as a lesbian, but that is her choice, not mine.

Seriously dood...how tough do you want to make this?
 
Yes god said there would be consequences for sin, however when a religion uses the state to enforce "god's will" does that not make the state a false idol? Meaning, if god wished to punish gay people for being gay shouldn't he do it himself instead of having a different vessel do it according for him? How can i possibly know that the state restricting a gay person from getting married is actually the word of god, and not just a neo-pietist sentiment attempting to create an illusive false representation of god. Meaning, if i forward my allegence to a state that restricts gays from getting married rather then being a christian that interposes society for my own religious reasons while maintaining the jesus code of ethics which intensible allows people to chose their own path to rightousness would i not, then, relieve myself of all possible worshiping of a false idol, i.e, the state?

In retrospect should we also not allow other people to practice their own religion for the same princeples you propose for gay people? How many times have you seen a full-hearted orthodox jew repent for being jewish?
Who do you see attempting to prevent gay people from being gay? Because...if you see that...I'm right there with you...THOSE guys are assholes.
 
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