Reconciling god and homosexuality

Jetboogieman said:

Ok.

So I really want to start this off by saying I don’t mean to sound like some militant atheist asshole but the more I think about it, the more hyperbole I hear from many more extreme Christian Leaders the more this whole thing just seems so silly to me.

I know I’m not going to convince anybody who isn’t already a totally devoted and hardcore Christian…

But doesn’t all this seem a tad strange?

I mean the bible was categorically not written by god himself… we know this for a fact and I’ve never ever been able to reconcile the idea that there’s an all-powerful god out there… somewhere… that can see everything we do, every day, all the time.

This supernatural being also created the… universe… have any of you built a star lately?

Do you have any idea what kind of power that would take?

We see the universe continuing to expand for what appears to be infinity, is god creating that or is it a natural process he set in motion?

And if you have that kind of infinite power to magically create stars, whole galaxies and infinity itself… would you really, truly care about the fact that some creatures on one planet that you created like to have relations with another of their own sex?

Do you really think that would actually be a priority of a being that powerful?

And if so why create beings that could be inclined to do so in the first place?

I know some of you will say “well god gives us free will to make right and wrong choices” but if that’s the case doesn’t that make him seem a little… well… cruel?

I mean picture this… you make it possible for beings you created to feel unbelievable lust and love for the same sex and then you threaten to send them to hell, a place of infinite torture and pain if they give in to those feelings THAT YOU ALLOWED IN THE FIRST PLACE if you accept he created man… doesn’t that seem a little crazy?

I mean how can ANYONE reconcile these ideas?

A being so infinitely powerful he created infinity itself… doesn’t like two dudes sleeping together…

That doesn't really make sense.

Click to expand...

The older I get the more I believe that if there is a god, it is nothing like what is written in the Bible. I'm more inclined to believe the universe itself is "god" and maybe, just maybe, we can occasionally tap into its power and receive some divine intervention...more like a nudge in the right direction if we are open to it. As for gays, hating on them or their actions is not really part of the equation. If anything, we maybe should show empathy toward those not like us.

calamity said:

The older I get the more I believe that if there is a god, it is nothing like what is written in the Bible. I'm more inclined to believe the universe itself is "god" and maybe, just maybe, we can occasionally tap into its power and receive some divine intervention...more like a nudge in the right direction if we are open to it. As for gays, hating on them or their actions is not really part of the equation. If anything, we maybe should show empathy toward those not like us.

Click to expand...

First of all.

I'd like to thank many of you for your honest responses.

As for you calamity I'm inclined to believe in something which I believe the best analogy is "The Force" from Star Wars.

Obviously it doesn't mean we can move things with our minds :2razz:, but I believe Obi Wan summed it up best

"An Energy Field created by all living things, it surrounds us, it penetrates is, it binds the Galaxy Together"

I'm not sure what is being asked in the OP.What exactly do you need help 'reconciling'?

If you believe in God there should probably be a reason. You should probably (if you choose to consider for yourself) read and ponder...even 'pray'. At some point you will develop a belief. You believe...or you dont.

If you dont believe...none of this should be relevant. If you dont believe in God there is nothing to reconcile. If you do...NONE of this should be relevant. If you believe in God then you accept his words. When there is something you dont agree with or dont understand, thats simply a question of humbling yourself to your faith.

The Bible provides guidance on homosexuality in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. Its not vague or ambiguous. If you believe God and the Bible, homosexuality is wrong. Regardless of your feelings, regardless of wanting people we love to be happy, regardless of trying to make it fit or work because it is something we personally want...at the end of the day, if you believe in God and the Bible...homosexuality is wrong. Period. Attempting to excuse or justify based on your own wants and desires is very human...but its not 'right' and never will be. If you are seeking reconciliation, you are probably more attempting to reconcile your OWN beliefs with homosexuality and trying to put that reconciliation on God.

Goshin said:

No, it's just denoted as a sin in about a dozen places in our holy book, so obviously there's no connection to the Christian religion... (/irony) :roll:

Click to expand...

I believe there is a reason for those lines being in the book. My guess (this is as a non-religious individual but rather from an anthropological perspective) is that people noticed that gay sex causes lots of diseases. Kind of like how eating certain foods was taboo.

VanceMack said:

I'm not sure what is being asked in the OP.What exactly do you need help 'reconciling'?

If you believe in God there should probably be a reason. You should probably (if you choose to consider for yourself) read and ponder...even 'pray'. At some point you will develop a belief. You believe...or you dont.

If you dont believe...none of this should be relevant. If you dont believe in God there is nothing to reconcile. If you do...NONE of this should be relevant. If you believe in God then you accept his words. When there is something you dont agree with or dont understand, thats simply a question of humbling yourself to your faith.

The Bible provides guidance on homosexuality in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. Its not vague or ambiguous. If you believe God and the Bible, homosexuality is wrong. Regardless of your feelings, regardless of wanting people we love to be happy, regardless of trying to make it fit or work because it is something we personally want...at the end of the day, if you believe in God and the Bible...homosexuality is wrong. Period. Attempting to excuse or justify based on your own wants and desires is very human...but its not 'right' and never will be. If you are seeking reconciliation, you are probably more attempting to reconcile your OWN beliefs with homosexuality and trying to put that reconciliation on God.

Click to expand...

I agree. I never understood gay people of faith searching out loopholes. IMO, you're either a believer in all of it or you are like me and discount it and live your life as you see fit, even to the point of finding your own version of spirituality, if need be.

That is not to say we cannot debate the issues philosophically. But, it is saying that you cannot be both a believer of Christian faith and someone who rejects such an obvious declaration of that faith. But, this also applies to much more than just homosexuality. For example, how many professed Christians ignore "turn the other cheek" by searching for loopholes in that rather clear statement?

Jetboogieman said:

First of all.

I'd like to thank many of you for your honest responses.

As for you calamity I'm inclined to believe in something which I believe the best analogy is "The Force" from Star Wars.

Obviously it doesn't mean we can move things with our minds :2razz:, but I believe Obi Wan summed it up best

"An Energy Field created by all living things, it surrounds us, it penetrates is, it binds the Galaxy Together"

Click to expand...

Sure. I believe that would best sum it up.

The OP is one of the many trains of logical thought that secular people have that makes it very hard for us to understand people with strong religious convictions. I actually think such lines of reasoning Can change people's ideas, though it would seem the average person who takes it upon themselves to join a debate forum is likely too entrenched in their own line of reasoning to be swayed by any such argument one way or the other.

Never the less, discussions of this type can be an opportunity for us all to understand each other better if the tendency to give into bickering can be overcome.

I actually have a harder time understanding homosexual males than I do Christians. It baffles me how a man can see an attractive female in a provocative position and not have a racing heart, sweaty palms and all that goes with most human males strong procreation instinct. However, for many people the opposite occurs. This has never bothered me personally, but I have to admit a hard time understanding conceptually how that can be. Perhaps it's natures reaction to human overpopulation.

Interesting theological/biological question, but not that important to me personally since it has little bearing on my life.

Understanding religious zealots seems more important, as they have much more effect on my life. I live in a rural county with a population of 18,000 that has (at last count) 81 separate Christian churches. In addition, we are living in a time when organized Christianity is attempting to assert itself even further into government through national movements like the American Renewal project.

I cannot for the life of me understand how any free thinking modern human could still "believe" thought constructs such as Christianity except through indoctrination.

As hard as that is for me to understand, I still would rather "live and let live" with zealots as well as gays. If only the zealots would return the favor the world would be a much better place IMO.

Note: I do not use the word zealot in a attempt to offend, only in the sense of one who is "fanatical and uncompromising" in there religious views, as some Christians seem to be on the subject of homosexuality.

chromium said:

are you trying to tell us something?

Click to expand...

Yes. That your argument just fell apart.

calamity said:

I agree. I never understood gay people of faith searching out loopholes. IMO, you're either a believer in all of it or you are like me and discount it and live your life as you see fit, even to the point of finding your own version of spirituality, if need be.

That is not to say we cannot debate the issues philosophically. But, it is saying that you cannot be both a believer of Christian faith and someone who rejects such an obvious declaration of that faith. But, this also applies to much more than just homosexuality. For example, how many professed Christians ignore "turn the other cheek" by searching for loopholes in that rather clear statement?

Click to expand...

For me (and only for me), the saving grace is in who God is. I don't believe in the omnipotent all powerful vengeful vain and jealous God. I believe in a loving Father that happens to be omnipotent and all powerful. I don't see the Bible as a book of condemnation. And I absolutely believe that God the Father knows the heart of all of us. I trust that he is going to work it all out. We will be judged by who we are.

I was fortunate enough to have someone in my life who was just the most beautiful, kind, generous, giving Soul and for her entire life she remained faithful to her commitment to God. She believed that her relationship with God was between her and him - no one else. She never tried to make those who held differing views feel inferior.

Then again, I grew up in an enviroment built on mutual respect, tolerance, understanding and love.

Hail Hail the lucky ones.

calamity said:

I agree. I never understood gay people of faith searching out loopholes. IMO, you're either a believer in all of it or you are like me and discount it and live your life as you see fit, even to the point of finding your own version of spirituality, if need be.

Click to expand...

Why did my neighbor who planted 2 crops side by side search out loopholes? Why do adulterers, high interest chargers, the wealthy, the gluttonous, etc etc.

The reason of course is to fit in and because when it's drilled into you from a young age, much earlier than one knows their sexuality, it's difficult to just throw that away because of a few verses. It's difficult to continue as is too. It can be quite a profound struggle, but that is still usually preferable to social suicide + atheism

For me this conflict created too much of a dissonance. We can only be lied to and insulted so much before forging our own path, however difficult

chromium said:

if you weren't able to act on attraction to your wife or any other female either you'd be singing a different tune no doubt. Your analogies are totally out of proportion. I can get by fine even if i have a temporary occasional feeling of coveting, or anger. Sexual attractions are about the 4th strongest urge, behind eating, ****ting, and sleep and the implication of not acting on them is usually remaining single.

i'm especially not going to throw my life away living alone and celibate because you or some ancient book tells me to

Click to expand...

Good for you . Leave the throwing your life away stuff for the religious nutcases. They are in for a big surprise when they just die like every other earthly creature. If there was a God he would surely smite them all for their pious ignorance. If God made us in his image then God is part gay too.

Fletch said:

Yes. That your argument just fell apart.

Click to expand...

afaik the bible says nothing against pedophilia and the koran should as hell has no problem with it. Take it up with them

The Bible never unambiguously denounces sexuality. Even if it could be said to, the Bible was written during a time when at least half of your children would die in infancy, and you'd be lucky to get one or two more to adulthood. Infant mortality was everywhere. In 2015, the global population became unsustainable years ago. It's no coincidence that homosexuality has (justly) enjoyed more social sanction over the last few decades than in recent history. The reason for this is that, outside of externally facilitated means, homosexuals can't reproduce. There are zero accidental pregnancies. We are now in a position where, were the entire world to (theoretically) wake up homosexual tomorrow, we could micro-manage the population to a point where overpopulation was no longer a problem.

CitizenE said:

The Bible never unambiguously denounces sexuality. Even if it could be said to, the Bible was written during a time when at least half of your children would die in infancy, and you'd be lucky to get one or two more to adulthood. Infant mortality was everywhere. In 2015, the global population became unsustainable years ago. It's no coincidence that homosexuality has (justly) enjoyed more social sanction over the last few decades than in recent history. The reason for this is that, outside of externally facilitated means, homosexuals can't reproduce. There are zero accidental pregnancies. We are now in a position where, were the entire world to (theoretically) wake up homosexual tomorrow, we could micro-manage the population to a point where overpopulation was no longer a problem.

Click to expand...

It seems to me from a biological standpoint that humanity needs homosexuality now more than ever as even with our modern technology we're approaching (or may have surpassed) the population saturation point. With 7 billion+ humans on the planet, we could certainly use a slow down of our reproduction capacity.

Of course such an idea is dependent on ones views on the future of humanity. Are we only here for a short time to pass/fail some kind of test given by a vague higher power until he/she/it decides to end it all? Or are we merely another species of animal that luckily developed consciousness, an evolutionary tool that just might let us escape or prolong the inevitable extinction event that has been the end of previous species to dominate the planet?

Personally, I envision a "Star Trek" future for humanity rather than a "Revelations" future.

Ask a Reform Jew. Reform Judaism has basically taken the notion that god is good and loving and uses that to trump anything else. There's gay people? God must love them and want them to be gay and happy. So we should love them and them to be gay and happy.

If you think of god as the angry vengeful one who's most interested in punishing sinners for breaking unchanging rules, then yeah, you're gonna have a hard time. But if your god is actually about love, then everyone should be your brothers and sisters and you love them and there is no reason at all to even consider homosexuality weird.

Unfortunately, the former type have a lot more power and their people speak a lot louder.

chromium said:

Why did my neighbor who planted 2 crops side by side search out loopholes? Why do adulterers, high interest chargers, the wealthy, the gluttonous, etc etc.

The reason of course is to fit in and because when it's drilled into you from a young age, much earlier than one knows their sexuality, it's difficult to just throw that away because of a few verses. It's difficult to continue as is too. It can be quite a profound struggle, but that is still usually preferable to social suicide + atheism

For me this conflict created too much of a dissonance. We can only be lied to and insulted so much before forging our own path, however difficult

Click to expand...

I'm not sure why I had no difficulty leaving the church. Like most, I had parents who believed. I went to church, did the bible school thing during summer breaks. I did bible study (the children's version) before church in winter too. I read kiddie bible stories. I watched all the movies around Easter and "It's a Wonderful Life" at Christmas. But, yet, sometime around fourth or fifth grade I developed a sense that it was all bull****.

I'm not going to say it was all my doing. I did after all grow up in the more secular 70's, and it's possible that my liberal public school education had an influence. I really don't know, but by jr High I was sure that god and Jesus were as much make believe as Jaws.

chromium said:

afaik the bible says nothing against pedophilia and the koran should as hell has no problem with it. Take it up with them

Click to expand...

Islam was designed to create lots of babies. Women, of course, were the vehicle to that end. And, starting them off early was part of the plan.

VanceMack said:

For me (and only for me), the saving grace is in who God is. I don't believe in the omnipotent all powerful vengeful vain and jealous God. I believe in a loving Father that happens to be omnipotent and all powerful. I don't see the Bible as a book of condemnation. And I absolutely believe that God the Father knows the heart of all of us. I trust that he is going to work it all out. We will be judged by who we are.

Click to expand...

It gets complicated for me as it gets simpler at the same time. I don't kick dogs or take people's things not for fear of "god" or his judgement, but because I have learned to see other living creatures as me. Not literally, of course, but I sense the empathy for things which walk this earth. I see their living beings: their fear, love hunger, and joy. This is also why I hesitate to judge harshly gays or Christians unless they cross a line and begin trampling on proverbial dogs.

A gay or religious straight person living his/her life in peaceful pursuit of happiness is me. One who starts fights and condemns others unlike them is not. I can justify my dislike for a muslim extremist who blows up a bus or a gay or Christian group who attack those professing to have Christian values or are gay, but I can appreciate them attacking those who attack them. Oppressed people lashing out at their oppressor is not the same as them harming innocent people trying to live their life in peace.

With death comes a need for grace, IMO. I trust that most of us can find it.

calamity said:

Islam was designed to create lots of babies. Women, of course, were the vehicle to that end. And, starting them off early was part of the plan.

Click to expand...

Their founder married a 7 year old and consummated it by age 9. That's the very definition of pedophilia and she could not have had kids yet.

Many afghan men today use this and other parts of the koran that identify females as 'ritually unclean' as an excuse to take boy lovers. I'm pretty sure that none of this has to do with procreation, but culture transferred onto a holy book

Jetboogieman said:

I mean the bible was categorically not written by god himself… we know this for a fact and I’ve never ever been able to reconcile the idea that there’s an all-powerful god out there… somewhere… that can see everything we do, every day, all the time.

Click to expand...

You're mistaken. Men wrote the Bible under divine inspiration, and one evidence of that is fulfilled Messianic prophecies at a rate far, far greater than chance.

And there is evidence for God and the Bible. Here's some from a prior thread:

How do we know the New Testament was written in the 1st century?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UUedYGs_lqq1uNet0u7qlSyQ&v=CtOJyknzaQw

Mathematical Probability Jesus is the Christ

Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ

The Messiah was Prophesied to be God

Jeremiah 23:5-6 - The Messiah as God

Testimony of the Evangelists by Simon Greenleaf

Simon Greenleaf wrote a book entitled, An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice. In which he emphatically stated:

"It was IMPOSSIBLE that the apostles could have persisted in affirming the truths they had narrated, had not JESUS CHRIST ACTUALLY RISEN FROM THE DEAD, . . ."
(Simon Greenleaf, An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice, p.29).

Greenleaf concluded that according to the jurisdiction of legal evidence the resurrection of Jesus Christ was the best supported event in all of history!

The Resurrection of Christ, Fact or Fiction

The Resurrection of Jesus Christ, Fact or Fiction?

Twelve Historical Facts Scholars believe about the Resurrection

MYSTAGOGY: 12 Historical Facts Most Critical Scholars Believe Supporting the Resurrection

List of Biblical People identified by non-Biblical Sources

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_biblical_figures_identified_in_extra-biblical_sources

Ancient Evidence for Jesus from non-Christian Sources

http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMN...dence_for_Jesus_from_NonChristian_Sources.htm

Earliest Mention of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ

Earliest Mention of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ « The Righter Report

Manuscript Evidence for the Bible

Manuscript Evidence for the Bible: An Outline - Faith Facts

Scholars Date New Testament to the 1st Century

A Chronological Order of The New Testament Books

Extra-Biblical Evidence for the Historical Jesus

https://jamesbishopblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/05/extra-biblical-evidence-for-the-historical-jesus/

Evidence for the Resurrection of Christ

Evidence for the Resurrection of Christ by Peter Kreeft and Ronald K. Tacelli

Gospel Dates and Reliability

Gospel Dates and Reliability - creation.com

free_think said:

I cannot for the life of me understand how any free thinking modern human could still "believe" thought constructs such as Christianity except through indoctrination.

Click to expand...

It sounds like you haven't done a great deal of serious research and study about Biblical Christianity. IMO that's a common issue with most skeptics.

But if you'd like some evidence for God and the Bible I listed some initial substantiations for them in Post #46:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/philo...g-god-and-homosexuality-5.html#post1064784104

Paschendale said:

Ask a Reform Jew. Reform Judaism has basically taken the notion that god is good and loving and uses that to trump anything else. There's gay people? God must love them and want them to be gay and happy. So we should love them and them to be gay and happy.

If you think of god as the angry vengeful one who's most interested in punishing sinners for breaking unchanging rules, then yeah, you're gonna have a hard time. But if your god is actually about love, then everyone should be your brothers and sisters and you love them and there is no reason at all to even consider homosexuality weird.

Unfortunately, the former type have a lot more power and their people speak a lot louder.

Click to expand...

Where's your evidence that God is just "good," and doesn't mete out justice for evil-doing? And where would you think 'evil' people go when they die?

Logicman said:

Where's your evidence that God is just "good," and doesn't mete out justice for evil-doing? And where would you think 'evil' people go when they die?

Click to expand...

I dont know about the concept of 'evil', but I wonder if people like Pasch would apply universal meaning to his comments. Oh...there are pathological liars? Well...God must want them to be happy. Oh...there are sociopaths? Well...God must want them to be happy. Oh...there are people with natural violent tendencies that get off on brutally assaulting women? Well...God must want them to be happy. Hey...how about those people that have mental health disabilities...I am sure God just wants them to suffer from depression. He did after all make them that way. Whats that you say? People that are predisposed to sexual contact with animals and children? Well...I am sure God wants them to be happy.

Or is it just THIS ONE THING...this ONE behavior that God declared sinful that he REALLY means keep doing it and be happy about it.

Its so blatantly obvious that this all revolves around what people WANT to be true...and not what IS true.

VanceMack said:

I dont know about the concept of 'evil', but I wonder if people like Pasch would apply universal meaning to his comments. Oh...there are pathological liars? Well...God must want them to be happy. Oh...there are sociopaths? Well...God must want them to be happy. Oh...there are people with natural violent tendencies that get off on brutally assaulting women? Well...God must want them to be happy. Hey...how about those people that have mental health disabilities...I am sure God just wants them to suffer from depression. He did after all make them that way. Whats that you say? People that are predisposed to sexual contact with animals and children? Well...I am sure God wants them to be happy.

Or is it just THIS ONE THING...this ONE behavior that God declared sinful that he REALLY means keep doing it and be happy about it.

Its so blatantly obvious that this all revolves around what people WANT to be true...and not what IS true.

Click to expand...

God made them all that way? I don't think so. There is a devil running amok too who tempts people to sin. There's also been entropy and environmental genetic abnormalities, etc., since the 'fall' of man and nature.

Besides, a great many people would like to engage in adultery and other immoral behaviors but they don't do it, because it's bad for them and society.