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Evidence for the Bible / God

tosca1 said:
...................One historical document would be that of Pliny the Younger.................
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as to many Christians dying a martyr's death, yes.

As to proving the existence of Jesus, resurrection included, no!
 
zyzygy said:
Nobody is disputing that. Dying for a religion was not invented by Christians.
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What I was getting at.

Proof of Jesus having existed tosca's citation offers not.
 
Logicman said:
Chuckle....

Weak. I was hoping for better arguments.

There are eyewitnesses in the NT. And you can't make the historical Gospels go away, nor can you dispel the resurrection.

And don't forget, Somerville, that Rome sacked Jerusalem in 70 AD so don't know how many dozens or hundreds of writings were lost. Did you ever consider that as a factor for why there might not be as many writings on a lot of subjects from there? Never crossed your mind? Sigh...
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No matter the facts presented, you will deny them because you see any such facts as attacks upon your religious faith. Calling my brief points "weak" without offering any actual rejoinder shows your basic ignorance of history.
 
tosca1 said:
Historical documents I meant were not taken from religious texts. But they do talked about Christians! Didn't Christians believe in Jesus Christ?
The very fact that they call themselves Christians - as followers of Jesus Christ - surely is an evidence of the existence of a man they called,
Jesus Christ!
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A very poor argument. Didn't the followers of Mithra believe in his existence? How about the worshippers of Bacchus, Osiris, Isis and any of the other multitude of deities.

tosca1 said:
You have to understand that Christianity just suddenly exploded in the region after the Resurrection of Christ.
The sudden transformations of the Apostles - from cowering fearful disciples who went in hiding at the death of Christ, suddenly brimmed with confidence and willingly defied authorities. beatings, prison time and martyrdom - for what? For someone who didn't really exist?
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Do Islamic suicide bombers believe in their god? The entire story of the disciples was a creation, years after the period in which Jesus supposedly lived and died.

tosca1 said:
What transformed them? Where did they get the courage and the confidence?


One historical document would be that of Pliny the Younger.


Of greater importance is the letter of Pliny the Younger to the Emperor Trajan (about A.D. 61-115), in which the Governor of Bithynia consults his imperial majesty as to how to deal with the Christians living within his jurisdiction. On the one hand, their lives were confessedly innocent; no crime could be proved against them excepting their Christian belief, which appeared to the Roman as an extravagant and perverse superstition. On the other hand, the Christians could not be shaken in their allegiance to Christ, Whom they celebrated as their God in their early morning meetings (Ep., X, 97, 98). Christianity here appears no longer as a religion of criminals, as it does in the texts of Tacitus and Suetonius; Pliny acknowledges the high moral principles of the Christians, admires their constancy in the Faith (pervicacia et inflexibilis obstinatio), which he appears to trace back to their worship of Christ (carmenque Christo, quasi Deo, dicere).

Early Documents Regarding the History of Jesus' Life
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So many Christians bravely, and willingly faced horrible deaths!
If I'm not mistaken, Peter died in 64 AD.
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That is the worst 'explanation' of Pliny's letter to Trajan I have ever read.
1: Their religion was a crime. Christians refused to perform the ceremonial worship of the Emperor - that was the crime. from the letter:
Meanwhile, in the case of those who were denounced to me as Christians, I have observed the following procedure: I interrogated these as to whether they were Christians; those who confessed I interrogated a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; those who persisted I ordered executed. For I had no doubt that, whatever the nature of their creed, stubbornness and inflexible obstinacy surely deserve to be punished. There were others possessed of the same folly; but because they were Roman citizens, I signed an order for them to be transferred to Rome.
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2: Some who were accused of being Christian denied they had ever been such or that they had forsworn the religion years earlier. Pliny did not acknowledge the "high moral principles of the Christians" as noted in the above quote where he wrote, their "stubbornness and inflexible obstinacy surely deserve to be punished"

3: I do not believe Pliny saw Christians as possessing "high moral principles" when he states that after torturing two women called deaconesses, he found nothing but "depraved, excessive superstition."

The full letter from Pliny to Trajan and Trajan's reply may be read here. -- PLINY, LETTERS 10.96-97
 
Somerville said:
No matter the facts presented, you will deny them because you see any such facts as attacks upon your religious faith. Calling my brief points "weak" without offering any actual rejoinder shows your basic ignorance of history.
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Nope, that what you and your fellow Christ-deniers do - deny every evidence presented.
 
Logicman said:
Nope, that what you and your fellow Christ-deniers do - deny every evidence presented.
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Well there is not very much evidence for it. Great floods, Jews in Egypt, talking donkey sorry I just don't care when so called Christians like you want to demonize people to hell.
 
winston53660 said:
Well there is not very much evidence for it. Great floods, Jews in Egypt, talking donkey sorry I just don't care when so called Christians like you want to demonize people to hell.
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Just remember who tried to warn and save you. It wasn't your like-minded buddies.
 
Logicman said:
Nope, that what you and your fellow Christ-deniers do - deny every evidence presented.
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I bet even if Jesus or God Himself appeared right before them - they'd still deny it! :lol:
 
tosca1 said:
I bet even if Jesus or God Himself appeared right before them - they'd still deny it! :lol:
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Hopefully there'd be a really big bottle of water close by
 
tosca1 said:
I bet even if Jesus or God Himself appeared right before them - they'd still deny it! :lol:
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I am sure the so called Christians on here would never accept him
 
Quag said:
I am sure the so called Christians on here would never accept him
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Probably because he would look more like what they see as one of those Muslim types and not like the European white guy in their favourite pictures. Nevermind that whole, sell or give away every material possession to those who are needy, directive.
 
Logicman said:
Do you ever have a decent argument about Christ? Because that one is for the birds.
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That comment was not about Christ but those who fail utterly to follow his teachigns whiel claimign to be his followers.
 
Originally Posted by Tim the plumber View Post
Look you can either argue that finding life outside Earth supports the God hypthesis or that doing so would weaken it but you cannot have it both ways!!!!

You ability to rember what you have said is very poor. Perhaps religion is a result of mental problems not the cause of them... Chicken/egg?
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tosca1 said:
Irrelevant!

You seem to think that the Scriptures tells in any way that specifically, earth is the only inhabited place in the universe. The Scriptures does not say that.
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Is your inability to actually take on board the ideas presented to you something that is the result of your religious indoctrination or were you like that before?

You have claimed that the presence of life outside Earth would support the God hypothesis. You have also said that not finding life outside Earth would also support the God idea. That is obviously utterly silly. If the first si the case then the second cannot be as well.

Your inability to understand this, or at least admit that you understand it, or even just walk away, is a clear demonstration of your mental approach to thinking which starts with a conclusion. This is why I think that you are unfit to sit on a jury.
 
Tim the plumber said:
Is your inability to actually take on board the ideas presented to you something that is the result of your religious indoctrination or were you like that before?

You have claimed that the presence of life outside Earth would support the God hypothesis. You have also said that not finding life outside Earth would also support the God idea. That is obviously utterly silly. If the first si the case then the second cannot be as well.
Your inability to understand this, or at least admit that you understand it, or even just walk away, is a clear demonstration of your mental approach to thinking which starts with a conclusion. This is why I think that you are unfit to sit on a jury.
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Bolded is the typical head I win tails you lose argument. No matter what the situation they are convinced it is proof of their conclusions
 
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