• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Questioning religion and the religious

Andalublue said:
Not to make too big a deal of it, but Nos.2,3 & 4 are all verbal, so when you say there's nothing anyone could say...
Click to expand...

I think everyone, but you, understood what I meant.
 
RAMOSS said:
So you say. I disagree. Your denial of the fact we CAN see people having experiences and verify what is triggering those experiences. We can see what parts of the brain are being activated, and we can determine how the brain gets stimulated to get activated. That's verification right there.. Hard core, physical verification that can be repeated, and tested. Empirically
Click to expand...

I almost get the impression you think I don't understand that we can use various diagnostic tools to visualize a person's brain activity. Of course we can. I know that. My point has to do with the step from brain activity to experience. So long as its conceivable that we could see brain activity without any accompanying experience, the point stands.

In fact, it's not merely conceivable, we're fairly certain it's actual. Cases of comatose patients whose fMRIs read normal or nearly so are a good example.

RAMOSS said:
They can narrow down , for example, specific parts of the brain that map out to someone experiencing pain
Click to expand...

Misses the point completely. Those subjects might just as well be acting as if they are in pain, but experiencing no pain.
 
ashurbanipal said:
I almost get the impression you think I don't understand that we can use various diagnostic tools to visualize a person's brain activity. Of course we can. I know that. My point has to do with the step from brain activity to experience. So long as its conceivable that we could see brain activity without any accompanying experience, the point stands.

In fact, it's not merely conceivable, we're fairly certain it's actual. Cases of comatose patients whose fMRIs read normal or nearly so are a good example.



Misses the point completely. Those subjects might just as well be acting as if they are in pain, but experiencing no pain.
Click to expand...

Can you show that to be true?? IT goes against all the evidence. Let's see you actually debunk it, rather than hand wave the evidence away.

As for you not understanding, well, that is the classical argument of ignorance. The point doesn't stand. But, willful ignorance is a powerful tool.
 
Last edited:
RAMOSS said:
Can you show that to be true??
Click to expand...

Can I show what to be true? That the idea of a brain scan with no actual experience is conceivable?
 
RAMOSS said:
As for you not understanding, well, that is the classical argument of ignorance. The point doesn't stand. But, willful ignorance is a powerful tool.
Click to expand...

Huh? That doesn't make any sense.
 
ashurbanipal said:
Can I show what to be true? That the idea of a brain scan with no actual experience is conceivable?
Click to expand...

It is conceivable, but the current evidence shows otherwise. It seems you make things up as you go on, rather than be able to support your claims with empirical data.
 
RAMOSS said:
It is conceivable, but the current evidence shows otherwise.
Click to expand...

All I need is for it to be conceivable, and the point goes through. Actually, I don't think I even need that much, but I'll leave it how it is.

Look: imagine or recall a time you felt a particular sensation. Call that sensation--i.e. that exact one, the one you felt on just that occasion, x. You may have felt what you would call "the same sensation" again on some other occasion, but strictly speaking, they're different events, and so not the same in the sense of being identical.

All I really need to show my point (assuming the principle of the parity of reasoning) is that it be impossible that I could experience x. That is, if it's not possible that your pain--your exact pain, not an analogous pain I might experience, but literally your experienced pain--could be mine, then it doesn't seem possible you could have a case. The original point of contention was whether some experience was publicly verifiable. But in fact no experience is publicly verifiable. I could stick a pin in my finger and feel a sharp pain. You could stick the same pin in your finger and say "ouch," and so on. But as far as I know, it's possible you're not feeling anything at all. Similarly, from your point of view (if you have a point of view), it's possible I could be having no experience. Sure, my brain might light up just the way one would expect, but perhaps it's just calculating all my behavior--i.e. telling my mouth to say "ouch," and my hand to jump. Or perhaps it's not doing anything useful at all. So long as that possibility exists, there is no certainty, and hence no verification.

RAMOSS said:
It seems you make things up as you go on, rather than be able to support your claims with empirical data.
Click to expand...

What claim have I made that needs any more than everyday commonsense support? Have you ever one time felt someone else's sensation? I don't mean, have you ever felt a sensation caused by a similar cause, or described in an analogous way or something. I mean, do you have the ability to crawl into someone else's mind and have their experiences? Do you think anyone else does have that ability?

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]
RAMOSS said:
[/FONT]I am.. I do not accept your axioms though.
Click to expand...


Which "axioms" of mine do you not accept?
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom