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But What If You're Wrong ...

Winchester said:
How can you call it true belief if it just comes down to hedging one's bets?
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Came in to say this.

If OP is only being religious "just in case" how could it be "true"?

I've frequently asked people if they remember what their life was like before they were born, and when they answer "no", I tell them that it's going to be a lot like that after they die.
 
Wow! Banned after just 52 posts. I'm assuming our Axmann was a sock. Anyone know whose?
 
spud_meister said:
God is omniscient and omnipotent. He knew the decisions I would make before He created the universe. Free will is an illusion.
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Foreknowledge is not determinism. God only knew your decisions, but he didn't make them - you did. So that was your free will.
 
Logicman said:
Foreknowledge is not determinism. God only knew your decisions, but he didn't make them - you did. So that was your free will.
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Foreknowledge + design = determinism.
 
Logicman said:
Design of the body and mind, not control of it.
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I write a number on a sheet of paper. I fold it in half and open it. It's the number I predicated.

I write two numbers, on two sheets of paper. I fold them both and know the order they're placed in. I open them. It's the numbers I predicted and in the order I predicted.

If you were to extrapolate this to a universal scale, how/where would free will occur?
 
Unrepresented said:
I write a number on a sheet of paper. I fold it in half and open it. It's the number I predicated.

I write two numbers, on two sheets of paper. I fold them both and know the order they're placed in. I open them. It's the numbers I predicted and in the order I predicted.

If you were to extrapolate this to a universal scale, how/where would free will occur?
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You just described it.

To say God is controlling our minds is biased paranoia.
 
Logicman said:
You just described it.

To say God is controlling our minds is biased paranoia.
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I'm not saying god's actively controlling our minds, I'm stating that if we're created by an all knowing, all powerful being, we're products entirely designed in advance, fates known, and intentionally crafted.

I am not changing the numbers I've written down, or changing the order, but they're still limited to the numbers I've written and the order I've intentionally placed them in.
 
Logicman said:
Foreknowledge is not determinism. God only knew your decisions, but he didn't make them - you did. So that was your free will.
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My thought processes, my knowledge, my likes and dislikes are all shaped by my environment and my genetics. These are subject to causality, and the original cause was God. If this is not the case, then God is not all powerful, as He would still be subject to chance, like us mere mortals appear to be.
 
axmann said:
If I'm wrong and there's no eternity ,no blissful existence after death as a result of my faith in God ,what have I lost? nothing.

I gained nothing, but I gave up little in the present life; all I sacrificed were things any decent person would have done.

But what if I'm right and did the right thing and reaped an eternal reward in the future life , but you were wrong! You gained really nothing in this world but just a good deal of misery and lawlessness and for that you lost an eternity of sublime existence.
And you could've had it all for just an honest understanding of true religion. Something you rejected ;something that would've cost you little but for which you now remain apart from God and in a terrible place forever and ever.

Why play the odds ,when eternity is so long..
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You assume eternity, based on what?
 
Andalublue said:
So, no predestination then? Not a Calvinist, I guess.
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Well here's what the Bible says:

"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son..." - Romans 8:29

Foreknowledge seems to come first.
 
Logicman said:
Well here's what the Bible says:

"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son..." - Romans 8:29

Foreknowledge seems to come first.
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So, there were/are some that God doesn't foreknow?
 
Logicman said:
The verse I provided doesn't conclude that.
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No, but it strongly suggests that. 'Those' presupposes that there were 'these' too; 'those' God foreknew, 'these' he didn't, no?
 
Andalublue said:
No, but it strongly suggests that. 'Those' presupposes that there were 'these' too; 'those' God foreknew, 'these' he didn't, no?
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Who the heck really knows, but feel free to believe as you will.
 
axmann said:
If I'm wrong and there's no eternity ,no blissful existence after death as a result of my faith in God ,what have I lost? nothing.

I gained nothing, but I gave up little in the present life; all I sacrificed were things any decent person would have done.

But what if I'm right and did the right thing and reaped an eternal reward in the future life , but you were wrong! You gained really nothing in this world but just a good deal of misery and lawlessness and for that you lost an eternity of sublime existence.
And you could've had it all for just an honest understanding of true religion. Something you rejected ;something that would've cost you little but for which you now remain apart from God and in a terrible place forever and ever.

Why play the odds ,when eternity is so long..
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Atheist Bus Slogan : There's PROBABLY No God.






Probably? That doesn't sound too confident, does it? :lol:
 
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tosca1 said:
Atheist Bus Slogan : There's PROBABLY No God.






Probably? That doesn't sound too confident, does it? [emoji38]
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You're mistaking an open mind for weakness and a closed mind for strength.
 
Unrepresented said:
You're mistaking an open mind for weakness and a closed mind for strength.
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No, it cannot be due to open-mindedness. If this slogan's supposed to show being open-minded - open to the probability, depending on scientific proofs - then they wouldn't be atheists, would they? They'd be agnostics!

The fact that inspite of the probability of God's existence, that they'd still define themselves as atheist, is being stubbornly close-minded.
They're like a catankerous old coot who's so set in his ways that even though he's being proven wrong, he still insists on his own way!
Just look at the way they try to reason! :mrgreen:
 
tosca1 said:
No, it cannot be due to open-mindedness. If this slogan's supposed to show being open-minded - open to the probability, depending on scientific proofs - then they wouldn't be atheists, would they? They'd be agnostics!

The fact that inspite of the probability, that they'd still define themselves as atheist, is being stubbornly close-minded.
They're like a catankerous old coot who's so set in his ways that even though he's being proven wrong, he still insists on his own way! :mrgreen:
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Atheism is a definition of a (lack of) belief. Agnosticism is a definition of one's ability to know.

I can be atheistic to the religions or society produces while still being agnostic on our ability to ultimately know all supernatural claims.
 
besides, you can always fall back on accepting Jesus as you draw your last breath.
 
Unrepresented said:
Atheism is a definition of a (lack of) belief. Agnosticism is a definition of one's ability to know.
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Whoaaa! You guys changed the definition of agnosticism, too???? :lol:



I can be atheistic to the religions or society produces while still being agnostic on our ability to ultimately know all supernatural claims.
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Well, when we talk of the existence of God - it's usually refers to the Christian God. That's why the Bible is the most scrutinized Scriptures there is.

If you claim to be agnostic as far as supernaturalism is concerned - then your agnosticism should also apply to God....after all, He is supernatural!
You have absolutely nothing to stand on to say that He doesn't exist when you're claiming on "being still agnostic on our ability to ultimately know all supernatural claims."

If that is your stance, you cannot write Him off. You've got to be agnostic when it comes to Him, too. Simple as that.
 
tosca1 said:
Whoaaa! You guys changed the definition of agnosticism, too???? :lol:
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"a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena" I think that "a definition of one's ability to know" explains that pretty well.

Well, when we talk of the existence of God - it's usually refers to the Christian God. That's why the Bible is the most scrutinized Scriptures there is.

If you claim to be agnostic as far as supernaturalism is concerned - then your agnosticism should also apply to God....after all, He is supernatural!
You have absolutely nothing to stand on to say that He doesn't exist when you're claiming on "being still agnostic on our ability to ultimately know all supernatural claims."

If that is your stance, you cannot write Him off. You've got to be agnostic when it comes to Him, too. Simple as that.
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And you have exactly the same thing to stand on saying He does exist. :shrug:
 
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