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Crisis of masculinity

Paschendale said:
That premise is just nonsense. There is no shortage of social interaction, and short-sighted people have been claiming that whatever new technology we have will render us unable to relate to each other since the invention of the printing press. It was absurd then, and it's absurd now.

Meanwhile, I was mostly responding to the other premise, that there's some kind of decline in masculinity. There isn't. Masculinity is just growing up.
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It isn't completely absurd, actually. I mean, it's not going to result in anything silly like the OP and it has nothing to do with "masculinity," but it is a fact that people are reporting that they are dramatically more lonely than they were even just 10 or 15 years ago, and many people have what's called "skin hunger" -- a lack of physical touch (this can be anything from a platonic hug to sex). This is true even of some people who are in relationships, because we crave in-person interaction and contact with most people we care about from family to close friends, not just our partners. But in the present culture, where so much of our interaction is done remotely and people have such large personal bubbles, many of us are not getting that need met.

I believe this is a self-correcting problem (and we're already seeing people attempting to solve it), and it afflicts women too. But there does need to be a dialogue about it. It's unfortunate that this rather valuable conversation gets derailed so often by people who are simply afraid of having their superiority complex threatened, as if the smartphone and the video game is some sort of attack on men by some secret feminist organization. It's not like women text, watch porn, or game, is it. :roll:

But despite that stupidity, we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water: people are deprived of deep interaction these days, and that's something worth discussing.
 
Paschendale said:
That premise is just nonsense. There is no shortage of social interaction, and short-sighted people have been claiming that whatever new technology we have will render us unable to relate to each other since the invention of the printing press. It was absurd then, and it's absurd now.

Meanwhile, I was mostly responding to the other premise, that there's some kind of decline in masculinity. There isn't. Masculinity is just growing up.
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He was speaking nonsense by calling this a masculinity problem as this has nothing to do with masculinity, but many people over the last couple years have taken note of men dropping out in growing numbers in countries all over the western world.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
It isn't completely absurd, actually. I mean, it's not going to result in anything silly like the OP and it has nothing to do with "masculinity," but it is a fact that people are reporting that they are dramatically more lonely than they were even just 10 or 15 years ago, and many people have what's called "skin hunger" -- a lack of physical touch (this can be anything from a platonic hug to sex). This is true even of some people who are in relationships, because we crave in-person interaction and contact with most people we care about from family to close friends, not just our partners. But in the present culture, where so much of our interaction is done remotely and people have such large personal bubbles, many of us are not getting that need met.I believe this is a self-correcting problem (and we're already seeing people attempting to solve it), and it afflicts women too. But there does need to be a dialogue about it. It's unfortunate that this rather valuable conversation gets derailed so often by people who are simply afraid of having their superiority complex threatened, as if the smartphone and the video game is some sort of attack on men by some secret feminist organization. It's not like women text, watch porn, or game, is it. :roll:But despite that stupidity, we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water: people are deprived of deep interaction these days, and that's something worth discussing.
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Could you expand on this? It really doesn't mesh with my own experiences. Technology has only ever expanded my social interactions. I think that if we're lonely, it's because we have overblown expectations of living lives like in sitcoms, where you spend pretty much every waking hour among a close knit group of friends (like on Friends), or lives like in movies, where we have a meet cute with someone and then fall madly in love and have perfect sex and live happily ever after with someone over the course of a week. I don't think we're less social, and even those who are stereotyped as anti-social (various nerdy, geeky types) are demonstrably not.I'd agree that dating is a bit messed up, but it's really easy to see why. People are reluctant to take chances on each other, both because we have so much pressure on ourselves, and because the lost investment in someone is pretty significant if it goes south. It doesn't often look like a very good chance to take.But if there's really widespread lack of social interaction, I'm not seeing it, so please further illustrate it.
 
Paschendale said:
No, we don't. There were always deadbeat dads, and there aren't more now than there were in generations past. It's probably the opposite. But it's a favorite thing to harp on because so many people think that Leave it to Beaver was a documentary and not a TV show.
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:shrug: I don't know what to tell you except that that is mathematically untrue. More children are raised without their fathers today than ever before, with drastically deleterious effects.
 
Ironfist17 said:
Do you believe that our society is facing masculinity crisis due to overload of porn and video game content?
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No. The generation that grew up on video games has already reached adulthood and everything seems to be fine. Yes, it has led to a juvenilization of America; but what have we really lost in the process? We have lost suits and ties in the workplace and replaced them with office humor and playfulness. I miss suits and ties, but it's not a bad trade.

Ironfist17 said:
Instead of communicating with people and learning how to live a real life many young people isolate themselves in their rooms. Playing games while chatting with your friends may seem like a nice substitute to the real life communication, but it's a completely different thing.
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Umm...no. Kids are communicating with each other in more ways than ever before. Sports continue to be as popular as ever and kids continue to meet at the movies, at the mall, the skate park, etc. the way they always have. The difference between today and the 90s is that today the teenager in his room can be socializing with a half dozen friends at once while watching tv. In the 90s, he/she would be socializing with one at most, and this only if he/she had commandeered the home phone.

Ironfist17 said:
Maybe that's why there are so many feminists out where because they can't find men capable to raise their potential children?
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Wow...you think feminism has to do with women being unable to find men?

Ironfist17 said:
Is there any possible way to reverse the trend? I don't want to live in an effeminate society where gender roles are completely wrecked.
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There is no discernible trend. But more importantly, when did you switch from complaining about the juvenilization of men to complaining about gender roles? What do video games have to do with femininity? If anything, video games could use a big dose of femininity because they're all testosterone driven right now.
 
CrabCake said:
Wow...you think feminism has to do with women being unable to find men?
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Why do you think a movement designed in part to change the roles of the sexes would have no negative effects on relationships and dating? The origins of this problem do in fact date back to the 1960's, which is right around the same time this feminist objective became a real force.
 
cpwill said:
We have a generation of men who are uninterested in being fathers to their children. I'd call that pretty much a crisis of masculinity. We haven't raised men. Just... older adolescents, wishing to enjoy the benefits of adulthood while avoiding responsibility.
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I think previous generations of men were largely uninvolved in the day to day aspects of child-rearing. If anything, men are more involved today by comparison. That of course is talking about families with the father in the home. You see a lot more single parent households these days.
 
Paschendale said:
There is no crisis of masculinity. There is only a lack of societal acceptance for people who view masculinity as the ability and willingness to punch people who are smaller than you. This evolution of society is centuries in the making and has nothing to do with video games.
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Clearly you can turn in your man card now.
Has nothing to do with hurting weaker people, more over its more a vision of helping and protecting the weak that masculinity comes from.
That and supporting ones self, family and being responsible.
 
cpwill said:
We have a generation of men who are uninterested in being fathers to their children. I'd call that pretty much a crisis of masculinity. We haven't raised men. Just... older adolescents, wishing to enjoy the benefits of adulthood while avoiding responsibility.
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I call them 35 year old teen agers.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
I think previous generations of men were largely uninvolved in the day to day aspects of child-rearing. If anything, men are more involved today by comparison. That of course is talking about families with the father in the home. You see a lot more single parent households these days.
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Well that was the point I was making. If you are home fewer hours of the day, but supporting the family by spending more hours at work, you are still at least supporting your child and being a father.
 
CRUE CAB said:
I call them 35 year old teen agers.
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I remember thinking something similar to that when folks started trumpeting that the ACA would let "children stay on health insurance up to age 26", and I thought... you know, I remember when we called 26 year old children "adults"....
 
Henrin said:
Could you miss the point any worse? The point was that men are not interacting with people, but instead just playing video games and watching porn. This has nothing to do with fighting or bullying or any of that stuff. Geez.
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And young people - male and female - aren't all loving online more and more?

If that's his point then he's ignoring that all young people are doing it - but is anyone ever complaining that girls are less feminine and we're having a femininity crisis?

Adequate point: online / tech is becoming more common.
Vague point: That negatively impacts masculinity.

I just don't get that connection.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
And young people - male and female - aren't all loving online more and more?

If that's his point then he's ignoring that all young people are doing it - but is anyone ever complaining that girls are less feminine and we're having a femininity crisis?
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He is approaching the subject in a way I don't agree with, but that doesn't mean there isn't a troublesome trend we are seeing in America and elsewhere. One and three men will watch on average 104 hours of porn annually and play enough hours of videos games by the time they are 21 to get two bachelors degrees. The number of men opted out in America is believed by some to be around 20%, while in some places in Europe it might be around 35% or so. In Japan where some people believe we are headed the amount of men opted out is around 70% with 35% of them being virgins. Why is this happening in many places around the world? It can't simply be that technology is awesome, can it?

I will agree women are watching more porn and playing video games as well, but it's not anywhere near the amount nor does it seem like as many women are as interested in being alone.
 
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Henrin said:
He is approaching the subject in a way I don't agree with, but that doesn't mean there isn't a troublesome trend we are seeing in America and elsewhere. One and three men will watch on average 104 hours of porn annually and play enough hours of videos games by the time they are 21 to get two bachelors degrees. The number of men opted out in America is believed by some to be around 20%, while in some places in Europe it might be around 35% or so. In Japan where some people believe we are headed the amount of men opted out is around 70% with 35% of them being virgins. Why is this happening in many places around the world? It can't simply be that technology is awesome, can it?

I will agree women are watching more porn and playing video games as well, but it's not anywhere near the amount nor does it seem like as many women are as interested in being alone.
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I think the kid pointing out that porn won't reject him really takes us toward the real 'issue' - After seeing how some girls are toward their boyfriends I don't blame the guys sometimes for not wanting to get involved in it.

For years and years people wanted teens to 'stay at arms length' and junk to avoid PDA and pregnancy - and here we are and now it's a problem (sort of ironic).
 
Paschendale said:
Could you expand on this? It really doesn't mesh with my own experiences. Technology has only ever expanded my social interactions. I think that if we're lonely, it's because we have overblown expectations of living lives like in sitcoms, where you spend pretty much every waking hour among a close knit group of friends (like on Friends), or lives like in movies, where we have a meet cute with someone and then fall madly in love and have perfect sex and live happily ever after with someone over the course of a week. I don't think we're less social, and even those who are stereotyped as anti-social (various nerdy, geeky types) are demonstrably not.I'd agree that dating is a bit messed up, but it's really easy to see why. People are reluctant to take chances on each other, both because we have so much pressure on ourselves, and because the lost investment in someone is pretty significant if it goes south. It doesn't often look like a very good chance to take.But if there's really widespread lack of social interaction, I'm not seeing it, so please further illustrate it.
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Tapping out words at people does not equal social interaction -- at least not as far as our brains are concerned.

Objectively, people today have fewer close friends, with whom they spend less time. A significant minority -- 10 to 15%, depending where you look -- don't have a single person with whom they share any real intimacy (emotional or physical). Not even a close friend. Such high levels of complete interpersonal isolation are unheard of in Western history (and the West has never been the most social society to begin with). They may have a wide array of acquaintances and people they connect with through technology, but they are not getting adequate levels of deeper interaction.

Putting out a Tweet about an awesome band you found is not a replacement for sharing your fears, or a nice hug. But people today are often replacing the latter with the former, and as a result of this, people are reporting themselves to be much more lonely than they did in the past.

As to why, I'm sure that's complex, but technology itself might have a lot to do with it. It's easy to use technology as a crutch to avoid the things many of us find anxiety-inducing about interacting, especially at more intimate levels: risk of rejection, saying the wrong thing, not looking our best -- technology can allow us to avoid all of those. And so we do.

The end result is less meaningful interaction, more loneliness, and some studies show also more anxiety (avoiding a scary thing tends to deepen the fear).

Like I said, I don't see this lasting indefinitely -- humans simply cannot survive like that, psychologically speaking. But it's a very real problem at this point in history, and without conversation, it won't correct.

Dating expectations and that whole mess is a different, although perhaps tangentially related, issue.
 
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cpwill said:
:shrug: I don't know what to tell you except that that is mathematically untrue. More children are raised without their fathers today than ever before, with drastically deleterious effects.
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There is a good reason illegitimacy was historically a stigma, both in England and in this country. People figured out a long time ago that fathers who don't feel much investment in their sons won't expend much effort in raising them, or at least in raising them right. That leaves the overstretched mother, who often is not up to the job. Most boys, when they reach a certain age, want to raise hell. My friends and I certainly did. And often it is only the fear of catching hell themselves from their fathers that makes them think twice about it.

There is truth in the old saying that idle hands are the devil's workshop. Sports and studying and work are good for teenage boys. Boys who have too much time on their hands and no one to stop them from doing whatever they feel like are apt to start living like so many feral cats or dogs. And with no guiding hand or civilizing influence, they often start doing some pretty bad things--even crimes. And the more they get away with, the more tempting it is to try something even worse, until eventually some of them become nothing but vicious thugs.
 
Henrin said:
He is approaching the subject in a way I don't agree with, but that doesn't mean there isn't a troublesome trend we are seeing in America and elsewhere. One and three men will watch on average 104 hours of porn annually and play enough hours of videos games by the time they are 21 to get two bachelors degrees. The number of men opted out in America is believed by some to be around 20%, while in some places in Europe it might be around 35% or so. In Japan where some people believe we are headed the amount of men opted out is around 70% with 35% of them being virgins. Why is this happening in many places around the world? It can't simply be that technology is awesome, can it?

I will agree women are watching more porn and playing video games as well, but it's not anywhere near the amount nor does it seem like as many women are as interested in being alone.
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"Opted out" ?
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
Tapping out words at people does not equal social interaction -- at least not as far as our brains are concerned.

Objectively, people today have fewer close friends, with whom they spend less time. A significant minority -- 10 to 15%, depending where you look -- don't have a single person with whom they share any real intimacy (emotional or physical). Not even a close friend. Such high levels of complete interpersonal isolation are unheard of in Western history (and the West has never been the most social society to begin with). They may have a wide array of acquaintances and people they connect with through technology, but they are not getting adequate levels of deeper interaction.

Putting out a Tweet about an awesome band you found is not a replacement for sharing your fears, or a nice hug. But people today are often replacing the latter with the former, and as a result of this, people are reporting themselves to be much more lonely than they did in the past.

As to why, I'm sure that's complex, but technology itself might have a lot to do with it. It's easy to use technology as a crutch to avoid the things many of us find anxiety-inducing about interacting, especially at more intimate levels: risk of rejection, saying the wrong thing, not looking our best -- technology can allow us to avoid all of those. And so we do.

The end result is less meaningful interaction, more loneliness, and some studies show also more anxiety (avoiding a scary thing tends to deepen the fear).

Like I said, I don't see this lasting indefinitely -- humans simply cannot survive like that, psychologically speaking. But it's a very real problem at this point in history, and without conversation, it won't correct.

Dating expectations and that whole mess is a different, although perhaps tangentially related, issue.
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Maybe the problem is that we're only looking at some kinds of technological interaction. There are marriages that start with playing together in an online game. There are massive social networks that keep people in touch and help organize meetings and events. There's a lot more to it than a few tweets. I don't doubt the accuracy of your statistics, though I'd be curious about the idea that this is a new phenomenon. I think it's just manifesting differently. But either way, the idea that technological communication starts and ends with twitter is a very narrow view.

People build communities on forums like these, and while this one is a little oddball in its combative nature, there are online communities centered around comic book or anime convention circuits, and people build friendships (and start businesses) around those. Vast numbers of gatherings take place every day in every city organized through online event planners, with people who have never met each other sharing activities. I don't disagree that Twitter is a poor substitute for meaningful interaction, but if a study focuses only on Twitter or Facebook, it's missing a lot of what new technology has to offer in terms of creating, not reducing, social interaction. And even Twitter or Facebook can help a friendship survive a rocky or distant period. They might not keep a bond strong, but they can be very useful in reuniting people after a temporary geographical separation.

I tried not to make this post just out of my own experiences, but I personally know people who have done all the things I mentioned in it. I've done some of them. Probably you have, too.
 
New technology and new styles and trends frequently create panics about how kids will be impacted. Jazz, comic books, television, rock music, hip hop and many other changes have resulted in 'experts' and concerned parents claiming that these changes will destroy civilization.


I think people are more isolated these days but there are many causes. One of the most significant is television watching which is correlated with people thinking that the world is more dangerous than it actually is. That has impacted parenting with more parents keeping their kids at home or in controlled situations (ie. team sports, school clubs) at nearly all times. It also impacts how people interact with their neighbors, co-workers etc with people more reluctant to be friendly and open to meeting new people. Suburbia is structured to increase isolation with the need to drive to perform most tasks, especially the with the trend towards larger houses and smaller yards. Leaving kids alone at home after school gives them more opportunity to spend hours playing video games, especially if they are not allowed to leave the house. However, I suspect that many of the kids who spend so many hours playing video games are similar to the kids that used to watch TV or read just as much..

If for no reason that to fight obesity, I think that parents should limit the amount of time that their kids spend staring at any type of screen. They can simply turn off the devices and send the kid outside to play.
 
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When I think of the "crisis of masculinity", I guess I see it differently than most on here seem to.

Most guys these days:

1. Can't work on their own vehicles. Hell most guys don't even change their own oil.

2. They are weak and have high body fat percentages. Hell its not just that they let themselves go, they never had it to begin with. Look at all these guys with man boobs these days. The reason for that is that low muscle mass and high body fat percentages leads to high aromatisation of testosterone, and thus high estrogen levels - the ultimate emasculation. Most guys these days are weak and soft.

3. Most guys have no outdoorsman ability at all. They know little about fishing at all, much less hunting. Camping to them if they do it at all is simply getting a tent or camper in a state park. The guys of means pretend they are rugged men by hiring an expensive guide and going on some hunting or fishing trip where everything is done for them. Of course most of them could never actually handle a true backcountry / wilderness experience because of point 2 above.

I grew up as a kid running limb lines, camping on the river, working on cars, cutting and hauling firewood, going to deer camp and so on.

I take my kids on wilderness backpacking and canoe trips. My son went on his first one with me when he was 4. I take them fishing just about every weekend from Spring through Fall. Most of their friends had never even so much as been fishing until I took them. My kids help me work on and maintain our vehicles and get the experience of me swearing and getting madder and madder while working on my wife's damn Subaru (that flat 4 makes everything hell to get to). I have them go on runs with me and go to the gym with me. I also cook most of our dinners at home, get them up and get their breakfast, do most of the dishes, and help keep the house clean. That is being a man, but most guys these days really aren't.
 
couple of points:

1) as far as the lack of societal engagement, i think this affects both genders. most children these days it seems grow up with an ipad in their hands from age 2 or 3. they have several hundred (sometimes over a thousand) "friends" and life doesn't count unless it is posted to facebook and receives a dozen thumbs up. it's not just boys affected by pornography either though i would expect abuse of that to come with emotional consequences

2) aren't there a number of recent/new trends/movements that would argue this a good thing? i'm talking about the whole "gender fluidity" movement which says that gender itself is a malleable concept depending on how the person feels at a given time. i used to think you were either a man or a woman, and ~1% of the people out there due to some genetic mutation somehow had either neither or both genetalia. now of course that is taboo and you will see this manifested in parents who will insist that the boy plays with barbie dolls and the girl plays with action figures when the are 2 years old


so i could see a potential crisis in masculinity but not for the reasons listed in the op. i would say it is more likely to come from the fact that the traditional ideal of a ruggen "man's man" is, if not out of date, subverted or minimized to make room for the "don't hurt anyone's feelings" crowd who would suggest that masculinity isn't even tied to gender.

see also the movement in support of gay marriage. is not that traditional image of masculinity inherently tied to heterosexuality? i have nothing against gay marriage, and i'm not saying there are "tough guys" who are gay, but it seems the more recent movements are definitely playing down that old school idea. wasn't there a thread the other day about a school district trying to get gender fluidity into a middle school curriculum? before some kids are being taught how to read and write they are getting courses about redefining their gender...
 
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