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Do you believe living in the US means you consent to be governed?

The idea that you can just run around providing people services they didn't ask for and then demand them to pay you is something a young boy would think of when he wants to make some money mowing peoples lawns. What he will find out and what the government damn well should find out is that no one has any obligation to pay you when they didn't agree for you do anything for them.

And yet you use it all, and you enjoy the comforts of our society and take advantage of our infrastructure and everything else. Even your banking, which is insured through government. So there you have it. You love government and government services, you just don't want to pay for it.

But there's no such thing as a free lunch.
 
And yet you use it all, and you enjoy the comforts of our society and take advantage of our infrastructure and everything else. Even your banking, which is insured through government. So there you have it. You love government and government services, you just don't want to pay for it.

But there's no such thing as a free lunch.

I'm sure all the people that got their lawn mowed without their permission are quiet happy with their law being mowed, but the fact remains they didn't ask for their lawns to be mowed and you can't just run around doing things for people without their permission and demanding payment for it.
 
I'm sure all the people that got their lawn mowed without their permission are quiet happy with their law being mowed, but the fact remains they didn't ask for their lawns to be mowed and you can't just run around doing things for people without their permission and demanding payment for it.

I mean, if you moved into an area that had an HOA that mowed your lawn and charged you for it, then you couldn't complain because that was all well and known.

I don't know what to tell you pal, pay up, go to jail, or fight the man; those are your choices. Be thankful that you live in America and even with your crappy government, we've got it quite good. Even if you have to pay for the roads you use.
 
The collective > the individual.

Ultimately every individual will conflict with the collective. This is the reality of social existence: you're either powerful enough to change it or you suck it up.
 
No, I have already decided against collecting Social Security.

Provided you only collect from Social Security that which you put in (plus some reasonable ROI) I see no inherent contradiction in your position and collecting Social Security. It is money that was taken from you afterall.
 
I'm sure all the people that got their lawn mowed without their permission are quiet happy with their law being mowed, but the fact remains they didn't ask for their lawns to be mowed and you can't just run around doing things for people without their permission and demanding payment for it.

You should get off the internetz then since the guberment initially developed it with your permission.
 
I think maybe some are not giving Henrin credit for a valid question and an interesting topic.

Yes, when we choose to live in a town or county or a community, etc., we are subject to the laws and legally enforceable rules associated with that. But presumably, those laws and rules were authorized and approved by the people and were not arbitrarily imposed on them by an elite group in authority that decides what is best for everybody else. That is what the Founders intended by their concept of self governance. And yes, in a honest and equitable society, EVERYBODY pays their fair share for the maintenance and upkeep of what they all share that is mutually beneficial to all. No able bodied person should ever expect to be the beneficiary of shared property and services without paying his/her fair share for them, and that way such things belong to all.

The Founders intended that the central government was given only authority to defend our rights, perform such duties, and enact such laws as NECESSARY for the various states to function as one nation. And then the central government was required to leave the people strictly along to GOVERN THEMSELVES and form whatever sorts of societies they wished to have and live their lives as they chose. In other words, a people who live in liberty are not governed.
 
What you believe or what you want has nothing to do with it. There is an inherent social contract in every society on the planet where those who live within the bounds of the society automatically agree to go along with the rules set up by society or pay the consequences thereof. This is true whether you like it or not.
 
What you believe or what you want has nothing to do with it. There is an inherent social contract in every society on the planet where those who live within the bounds of the society automatically agree to go along with the rules set up by society or pay the consequences thereof. This is true whether you like it or not.

You appear to have had a flash of brilliance where everything you were looking for was found in a mythical contract that no one has ever seen or signed with terms that include exactly the moral requirements that you were looking for. I wish I could find my own special make believe contract to throw at people. :(

Your so called contract is not a contract at all. It can therefore bind no one morally, legally or otherwise. Your contract is trash and you can no more prove its existence than a little girl that loves unicorns can prove unicorns exist. If your entire belief system is based on what amounts to the belief in unicorns your belief system sucks.
 
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You appear to have had a flash of brilliance where everything you were looking for was found in a mythical contract that no one has ever seen or signed with terms that include exactly the moral requirements that you were looking for. I wish I could find my own special make believe contract to throw at people. :(

Your so called contract is not a contract at all. It can therefore bind no one morally, legally or otherwise. Your contract is trash and you can no more prove its existence than a little girl that loves unicorns can prove unicorns exist. If your entire belief system is based on what amounts to the belief in unicorns your belief system sucks.

Cool, you be sure to tell that to the authorities when they come to arrest you for violating the laws that, like it or not, you are held accountable to. Geez, libertarians are idiots.
 
Cool, you be sure to tell that to the authorities when they come to arrest you for violating the laws that, like it or not, you are held accountable to. Geez, libertarians are idiots.

What happened to that social contract of yours? Did you perhaps realize that you can't defend the existence of a contract that you yourself aren't even aware of what its terms actually are?

Before you decide to get the bright idea of bringing up the mystical social contract again be sure that you can prove that not only does it exist, but that you can show what it's terms are and that I agreed to it. If the best you can do is show that someone else agreed to it for me or that somehow being here did that for me then don't even bother with that pile of horse mature again.
 
Cool, you be sure to tell that to the authorities when they come to arrest you for violating the laws that, like it or not, you are held accountable to. Geez, libertarians are idiots.

I would also like to point out that committing fallacies like appealing to authority does not convince me of the validity of your argument.
 
I would also like to point out that committing fallacies like appealing to authority does not convince me of the validity of your argument.

Like your appealing to wishful thinking does? :roll:
 
As an anarchist and someone that does not consent to be governed by the US government I regularly hear people tell me that I consent to be governed because I haven’t taken it on myself to leave or because I use public roads, sidewalks, police, fire protection or benefit from military protection. What they fail to recognize is that when the government has successfully monopolized most of societies essential services and has made illegal all other possible avenues there is little choice but to use the services the government provides and be member of the governmental organization.

Sometimes what people like to say is that because you have a birth certificate or because you have decided to immigrate here you have consented to be governed, but what they fail to understand is that in neither case is it a valid establishment of consent since in the former case the agreement is made by your parents, and in the later case, you are coerced to become a citizen or face legal punishment. Furthermore, you can not simply leave and not join another government organization as the government you had no choice but to be member of won’t allow you to denounce your citizenship without you having membership from another governmental organization. Under such terms any future agreement with the new governmental organization is to be assumed to be made under distress and thus can not be seen as binding to the party that signed it.

Then of course we have much less thought through arguments, like, well, you’re party to the social contract, or it’s in our nature to form into groups.

In the case of the social contract the argument is that by joining a society you have consented to some set of common rules, and thus you are morally bound to obey them. There has been no contract in history known as the social contract and at no point has any terms of this contract been presented or any choice of agreement or disagreement been offered to anyone. Furthermore, people do no choose where they are born or what societies they are born into much like they don't choose who their families are or if they are going to be born with ten fingers and ten toes. What actually happens is that the government forces anyone in their area since birth to follow their rules and punishes them accordingly if they break them.

Finally we reach the last argument that states it is in our nature to form into groups and establish rules in which we are to follow. The only way this argument could be a valid establishment of consent is if it was done by agreement, but in truth it is just another way to make the social contract argument. It is stating much like the social contract argument that because you are part of what has been determined society you have agreed to the rules, and again like the social contract argument assumes this was done by choice, not things outside of your control and not consented to like being born into the society. What many times is argued by those that enjoy the argument is that because the rules were already established by those that agreed to them (the people didn’t agree to them in the US), that you too agree to them because you are part of the same society. It is of course an argument that is absurd on it’s face as a persons agreement is only their own and would die with them.

So I ask you, do you believe people consent to be governed by just living in the US?

absolutely not!!!!! the dec. of ind. states that the gov, derives its powers from the consent of the governed, if the gov. operates without the peoples consent it is the duty of americans to alter or abolish it.
 
Like your appealing to wishful thinking does? :roll:

The only one practicing wishful thinking is the one that thinks there exists this thing called the social contract. All the social contract will ever be is a way for the inept to attempt to argue the validity of the obligations they want to impose on others.
 
Basically, if you want to live in our society but not contribute to it, we don't like that. Feel free to go live in the wilderness somewhere without reaping the benefits of our state. Otherwise, if you're going to continue to use the benefits of our society, and the state that makes it keep working, you are expected to support that society in return.

"Consent of the governed" largely refers to society as a whole, not each individual.

Well I dunno Randy Weaver tried that move to nowhere thing and the Feds still came and killed his family over tax issue
 
Using public anything means you consent to be governed.
 
Using public anything means you consent to be governed.

That would mean that going to the park somehow leads to me consenting to all of governance. At best all that going to park would mean by itself is that I agree to go to the park and enjoy whatever that service has to provide me. It wouldn't somehow imply that I consented to any wider set of rules by the state.

In order to establish consent to governance you can't just go to some random service by the state, but instead have to go right to the heart of the matter and get my consent to all of government there.
 
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That would mean that going to the park somehow leads to me consenting to all of governance. At best all that going to park would mean by itself is that I agree to go to the park and enjoy whatever that service has to provide me. It wouldn't somehow imply that I consented to any wider set of rules by the state.

In order to establish consent to governance you can't just go to some random service by the state, but instead have to go right to the heart of the matter and get my consent to all of government there.

You used a public road. You were subject to safety regulations. You are on public land...thus you must abide by public authority. That is the government. You use public services all the time. Hell...what about money? That is something regulated by the government.
 
You used a public road. You were subject to safety regulations. You are on public land...thus you must abide by public authority. That is the government. You use public services all the time. Hell...what about money? That is something regulated by the government.

You're talking to a libertarian crackpot, give up. Some people just aren't rational.
 
You're talking to a libertarian crackpot, give up. Some people just aren't rational.

If he stuck to his principles then he would be living in a cave, clad in animal skins and with no internet access.
 
As an anarchist and someone that does not consent to be governed by the US government I regularly hear people tell me that I consent to be governed because I haven’t taken it on myself to leave or because I use public roads, sidewalks, police, fire protection or benefit from military protection. What they fail to recognize is that when the government has successfully monopolized most of societies essential services and has made illegal all other possible avenues there is little choice but to use the services the government provides and be member of the governmental organization.

I think it is absurd to argue that merely by existing, one consents to anything. It is also a very backward way of looking at the role and justification for government.

If you are a true anarchist, then you would have to believe that you should be allowed to kill another person, and that any collective government would be acting unjustly by seeking to prohibit you from doing so, or by punishing you for doing so. Anyone else recognizes that human beings have a right not to be summarily killed, and that society has a collective duty and responsibility to enact and enforce laws to protect this right. It's not that any of us, as individuals consent to being prohibited from killing each other, or to being jailed, put to death, or otherwise punished if we do; but that this role of government is an extension of our own right to life, and to defend our lives, and our recognition that this right is best protected by delegating the authority to a collective government to act on our behalf.

I refer you to a brilliant article, written long ago by Ezra Taft Benson, on The Proper Role of Government.
 
You used a public road. You were subject to safety regulations. You are on public land...thus you must abide by public authority. That is the government. You use public services all the time. Hell...what about money? That is something regulated by the government.

At best those conditions would only be relevant when I'm on the land itself. As for money, that is an issue I already covered in the OP, and like I said there, when the government bans all other alternatives I have no choice but to use their services.
 
If he stuck to his principles then he would be living in a cave, clad in animal skins and with no internet access.

That makes no sense what so ever. I have no problem trading with those of my choosing to acquire those things I need or desire. nor do I have a problem with joining a group for protection. What I have a problem with is automatically being made under some else's command and ordered around like I'm their slave.
 
At best those conditions would only be relevant when I'm on the land itself. As for money, that is an issue I already covered in the OP, and like I said there, when the government bans all other alternatives I have no choice but to use their services.

Barter is not banned.
 
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