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What Is The Difference Between Prayer And Witchcraft?

Gonzo Rodeo said:
I'm sure soldiers are in this position all the time - actively praying for the other guy to die.
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I'm sure.

I'm sure all sorts of people pray for all sorts of things all the time.

So what?
 
soot said:
I'm sure.

I'm sure all sorts of people pray for all sorts of things all the time.

So what?
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According to the argument at hand, this is an inappropriate use of prayer. Unless explicitly asking what God's will is in a particular matter, any other use of prayer is inappropriate. That is the argument on the table. This is the premise that makes prayer different than any type of witchcraft, since it has nothing to do with help/intercession for the individual but rather a communication with God to see how God wants you to handle something. This means everyone who prays for anything other than Gods advice is actually practicing a type of witchcraft according to given definition of witchcraft in this thread and the logical conclusion that follows from the premise.
 
Gonzo Rodeo said:
...then, I guess the question to you is: what is the difference between "power" and "strength"? Isn't that kind of the same thing? And asking a higher power/being for it, no less?
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Strength: consistent, slow, exertion of force over a period of time.
Power: is strength + speed
 
Logicman said:
It's not who you're praying FOR but who you're praying TO.
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So, you're going to go with the arbitrary distinction then. "My religion is true, because it's not one of the other ones."

What is the functional difference between praying to Jesus and praying to Krishna? Functionally speaking, how are these acts different? And then take it one step further - how is this different than babbling an incantation to some pagan deity?
 
Gonzo Rodeo said:
So, you're going to go with the arbitrary distinction then. "My religion is true, because it's not one of the other ones."
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You want to make the arbitrary argument that none of them are true?

Listen, I've studied Biblical Christianity for forty plus years, and it has the best evidence for any religion I've seen.

Gonzo Rodeo said:
What is the functional difference between praying to Jesus and praying to Krishna? Functionally speaking, how are these acts different? And then take it one step further - how is this different than babbling an incantation to some pagan deity?
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Figure it out yourself when you've done your due diligence.
 
Logicman said:
You want to make the arbitrary argument that none of them are true?

Listen, I've studied Biblical Christianity for forty plus years, and it has the best evidence for any religion I've seen.
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Have you studied all the other religions for equally as long?
 
Gonzo Rodeo said:
So, you're saying that good Christians don't pray for their spouses to be healed of their cancer? That is an inappropriate use of prayer?
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Biblically speaking, we are to pray for God's will to be done. We can pray for things like this, doing so in faith that we understand God's will for this particular situation. Sometimes we get it wrong and pray outside of God's will.

This, then, is how you should pray:

Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.
 
Logicman said:
You want to make the arbitrary argument that none of them are true?

Listen, I've studied Biblical Christianity for forty plus years, and it has the best evidence for any religion I've seen.



Figure it out yourself when you've done your due diligence.
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Your claim appears to be that praying is different than witchcraft by virtue of Christianity being true.. While this is outside of the scope of the thread, can you elaborate on how they are functionally different? Without going into efficacy, of course. What is functionally different about asking one spiritual being for intercession/guidance/a favor and another spiritual being for the same?
 
Ikari said:
Have you studied all the other religions for equally as long?
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I studied them long enough to know they don't the evidence Christianity does.

And before you go off again try busting the resurrection and see how that works out for you.
 
Gonzo Rodeo said:
Your claim appears to be that praying is different than witchcraft by virtue of Christianity being true.. While this is outside of the scope of the thread, can you elaborate on how they are functionally different? Without going into efficacy, of course. What is functionally different about asking one spiritual being for intercession/guidance/a favor and another spiritual being for the same?
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None of the others have the signature of God - fulfilled Messianic prophecies at a rate far, far greater than chance.
 
Gonzo Rodeo said:
What is the fundamental difference between prayer and witchcraft? Obviously excluding "one of them works," since that will lead to a wild goose chase over "which one."

In specific terms, how is it fundamentally different to beseech a spiritual power to intercede on your behalf and... beseech a spiritual power to intercede on your behalf?
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I think that if the intention of prayer is to manipulate God into blessing you somehow, you're attempting witchcraft. God shouldn't be treated as a genie in a bottle.
 
Logicman said:
I studied them long enough to know they don't the evidence Christianity does.

And before you go off again try busting the resurrection and see how that works out for you.
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Try busting the resurrection? There's no measured evidence of zombies, you ain't got any proof of a resurrection.
 
From the outside (of unbelief) looking in, I suppose it might seem the differences are cosmetic rather than foundational.


There are some problems with the comparison of course.


"Witchcraft" covers an remarkably broad spectrum of practices in modern parlance, covering many wildly different practices from dozens of different cultures separated by vast gulfs of history, as well as modern efforts to revive, recreate or rediscover same.

In saying "witchcraft" one could be referring to medieval magical practices aimed at summoning demons to barter with; ancient Babylonian rites invoking luck or favor or fertility, etc.... Satanic church rituals.... Voodoun/Hoodoo practices... Wiccan or other neo-pagan religious ceremonies invoking their "gods"... or modern attempts to use ritual and concentration to direct "psychic" energy toward a desired goal.


In other words, the term "witchcraft" covers a lot of ground and paints with a broad brush. While it does always involve some kind of supernatural power, that power may or may not be personified as a god or demon or etc. Entreating same may involve complex rituals with precise materials and possibly sacrifices of some sort, or not.


Prayer, in the modern Christian usage, is at least a much more definable proposition. Fundamentally, it is communing or communicating with God in a purposeful manner, usually by spoken or unspoken verbalization. A common view is that prayer typically involves either expressing gratitude and worship towards God, or requesting God's aid.

Delving into the theological aspects of prayer can get much more complex of course. A more advanced theological view of prayer is that God already knows what you need or want or wish to say; that prayer itself is not for God's benefit (as if He didn't already know something) but rather for the benefit of the person praying, that they might commune with God and grow closer in faith.


While some denominations do practice certain rituals surrounding prayer in some circumstances (lighting candles at an altar for instance), none that I know of require any elaborate rituals (such as are common in most "witchcraft"), but rather acknowledge that the only truly necessary component to prayer is a heart open to communing with God... neither ritual nor spoken words are actually required for the believer to seek God's presence.
 
Logicman said:
None of the others have the signature of God - fulfilled Messianic prophecies at a rate far, far greater than chance.
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Radical said:
I think that if the intention of prayer is to manipulate God into blessing you somehow, you're attempting witchcraft. God shouldn't be treated as a genie in a bottle.
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So, functionally, there is no difference in the physical/mental act of prayer and casting a spell. The actions themselves, not the results. Would this be a fair statement?
 
Ikari said:
So...where's the measurement that proves the resurrection then?
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What? You're expecting scientific measurement for a 2,000 year old event? I hope you're not trying to be serious with that.
 
Gonzo Rodeo said:
So, functionally, there is no difference in the physical/mental act of prayer and casting a spell. The actions themselves, not the results. Would this be a fair statement?
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It's a spiritual difference.
 
Gonzo Rodeo said:
So, functionally, there is no difference in the physical/mental act of prayer and casting a spell. The actions themselves, not the results. Would this be a fair statement?
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Actually that would be inaccurate.

"The actions themselves"... in most traditions (as I noted above, we're covering a lot of ground with a broad brush here), "spellcasting" typically involves some rather elaborate rituals, with various specified materials, symbols, and preparations required, as well as any verbal invocation or spoken cantrip. Also spellcasting may or may not involve the invocation of any deity or supernatural personality.

Prayer, in modern Christian use, typically has no absolute requirement for any external trappings whatsoever, and is directed at God alone. (I leave aside arguments about Catholics praying to saints, which is a complex subject as many of them say they don't actually PRAY to saints per se... but as I am not Catholic I feel unqualified to say much about that practice.)
 
Gonzo Rodeo said:
What is the fundamental difference between prayer and witchcraft? Obviously excluding "one of them works," since that will lead to a wild goose chase over "which one."

In specific terms, how is it fundamentally different to beseech a spiritual power to intercede on your behalf and... beseech a spiritual power to intercede on your behalf?
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pretty good question. maybe a distinction lies in the sense that when you pray, you're asking for a favor. when you cast a spell, you are sort of "owed" the results promised to you based on whatever ingredients you use so no one is doing you a favor.
 
Logicman said:
What? You're expecting scientific measurement for a 2,000 year old event? I hope you're not trying to be serious with that.
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if you have proof, let's see it. Science has existed for more than 2000 years.
 
Logicman said:
Also, miracles are now documented, so your a priori, anti-supernatural bias is no longer viable.

Miracles: The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts (2 Volume Set): Craig S. Keener: 9780801039522: Amazon.com: Books
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Oh wow a book said it? Must be true.

Fairies: Real Encounters With Little People: Janet Bord: 9780440226123: Amazon.com: Books

61-5s7u61oL.jpg
 
celticwar17 said:
Whynot? Who are you to say what is and isn't witchcraft?

Goshin said it best above..
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Satanists do not practice witchcraft any more than Christians
 
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