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Are Polite Cultures More Violent?

Per Capita is a very real thing. I'd say it is actually more important than the absolute numbers since those change per population growth. "Per capita" tells you much more clearly what the odds are of a given generic person running into it.

Sorry I meant 'violence per capita' rather than just 'per capita'. I mean, how would you measure that? It would depend wildy on varying definitions of 'violence'.
 
It depends on the reason for the politeness.

Victorian cultures are passive aggressive. They say one thing and do another. That's different than, say, Scandinavian cultures which are quite polite due to having formed liberal civil societies where people can express themselves across most situations.

Sometimes politeness is indicative of a mature culture, or an immature one. It depends.

I personally don't find southern u.s. culture honorable. It is still enclave driven and based on factors like privilege and conformity. If you stick out there you will know it.



I don't know why you'd say that. Most straight Protestants born south of the Mason-Dixon get along just fine down here. Why, as long as you've served in the military you can even be a Democrat and still get respect. :lamo
 
Sorry I meant 'violence per capita' rather than just 'per capita'. I mean, how would you measure that?



Well, the FBI does in their Uniform Crime Report.
 
I agree as disagree. Per capita has to take into account certain factors to be accurate. Population size can affect that. 1 murder in a town of 500 people? That doesn't make it more likely. It could have been cheating spouse and it will not happen again for 20 years.


When you get down into smaller groups of people of course there are detail factors that come into play. Per capita usually measures per 100,000 in national stats.
 
See, Canada is a very polite society and we work things out non-violently. This works for Americans, too, when they come here. Here's an American, Craig Coxe, working things out the Canadian way with Bob Probert...




Heh. I have Canadian friends who vacation down here sometimes. They have adapted to Southern culture by learning to sip sweet tea and say "Y'all" and "Big Ol". They were already plenty polite. :lamo
 
It depends on the reason for the politeness.

Victorian cultures are passive aggressive. They say one thing and do another. That's different than, say, Scandinavian cultures which are quite polite due to having formed liberal civil societies where people can express themselves across most situations.

Sometimes politeness is indicative of a mature culture, or an immature one. It depends.

I personally don't find southern u.s. culture honorable. It is still enclave driven and based on factors like privilege and conformity. If you stick out there you will know it.

I live in Florida. So I have a perspective on both northern and southern culture.

I do find souther culture honorable. I feel less likely to be screwed by a southern person. I kind of expect it when I go to south Florida, and so I am on my guard for it. Maybe it is rural vs city? But outside the south? China town? Little Italy? Unions? Money? Dividing along race and money isn't unique to the south.

I think the difference is the pride from whence you came. That is really important in the south. What your family history is. It doesn't impact much, but it probably is more likely matter to you as an individual in the south.
 
My apologies - please pardon my intrusion into your lovely thread discussion.

I just wanted to note my strong agreement with the study. We Canadians, well known for our politeness (pardon me, that sounds boastful) are also well known for our violence. It's why I keep my registered and licensed rubber chicken on my nightstand when I go to bed.

Please, don't mind me - go back to your lovely discussion and forget I was ever here. Goodbye and have a wonderful day.
 
Well, the FBI does in their Uniform Crime Report.

Do they use crime levels as an indicator of violence?

My understand of the OP suggests a differentiation between a person or culture being violent versus them committing crimes. I mean, how would you even go about measuring ticked off-ness, stress, testosterone etc levels as mentioned in the OP at a public scale?
 
Do they use crime levels as an indicator of violence?

My understand of the OP suggests a differentiation between a person or culture being violent versus them committing crimes. I mean, how would you even go about measuring ticked off-ness, stress, testosterone etc levels as mentioned in the OP at a public scale?


Well obviously you couldn't do so directly, but there appears to be a (reasonable) assumption that "lots of people being violently angry" would translate to "more violent crimes".
 
I live in Florida. So I have a perspective on both northern and southern culture.

I do find souther culture honorable. I feel less likely to be screwed by a southern person. I kind of expect it when I go to south Florida, and so I am on my guard for it. Maybe it is rural vs city? But outside the south? China town? Little Italy? Unions? Money? Dividing along race and money isn't unique to the south.

I think the difference is the pride from whence you came. That is really important in the south. What your family history is. It doesn't impact much, but it probably is more likely matter to you as an individual in the south.




We have a saying in SC, about the traditions and concerns of various sections of the state:

In the Upstate, they want to know who your family is and where you go to church. In Columbia, they want to know what you do for a living and which political party you favor. In Charleston, they want to know what you'll have to drink. :D
 
A number of studies have indicated that societies which are known for exceptionally high levels of hospitality, and generally "polite" behavior, also tend to have exceptionally high levels of violence and murder.

This is apparently seen most prominently in Hunter Gatherer societies; some of which come off as being veritable egalitarian paradises on the surface, but actually hide murder rates several times higher than the US average under the surface.

Cultural Shaping of Violence: Victimization, Escalation, Response

However, it is also seen in the United States itself, and the South in particular.

Insult, Aggression, and the Southern Culture of Honor:
An "Experimental Ethnography"


While there arguably might be a number of different reasons for that (poverty, racial differences related to cultural tensions left over from slavery and segregation, and etca), there is some evidence to suggest that Southern culture itself might play a role.

According to the above study, when Southerners and Northerners were both faced with the prospect of dealing with an aggressive or overtly insulting person under laboratory conditions, the Northerners would simply toss the abuse back, but remain more or less unaffected outside of that. Southerners, however, would try to remain passive for far longer, before ultimately exploding in violence after reaching a certain breaking point.

This was reflected on a hormonal level as well. Even while remaining outwardly polite, Southern men registered almost double the levels of Testosterone and Cortisol in response to an overt insult than did Northern men.

The roots of that seem to be psychological more than anything else. The more restrictive the social code, the more negative the emotional reaction when one violates that code. Likewise, it is also likely tied to repression. The longer one holds on to a negative emotion, the more explosive it will be when eventually released.

Though... Arguably, the initial inclination towards politeness could also originate with an explicit cultural desire not to tick people off in the first place, because one knows just how badly such things tend to turn out. :lol:

In any case, it is an interesting phenomena. Honestly, I'm not really sure which approach I prefer.

While it's probably a good thing not having to deal with the kind of culture where you have to worry about being shanked over any imagined insult (think of most mob movies, for example, or anything having to do with the Italian Renaissance) , I'm not really sure if the opposite is desirable either.

Frankly, even with the increased violence, I'd much rather live in a generally pleasant and "honorable" society, where abrasive assholes are put in their place, than one where they are allowed to prance around freely, dumping all over everyone free of consequence.

Maybe that's just me. :shrug:

It's an interesting hypothesis, but I think there are a number of Asian cultures (ex Thailand, Japan) where the evidence suggests the opposite.
 
My apologies - please pardon my intrusion into your lovely thread discussion.

I just wanted to note my strong agreement with the study. We Canadians, well known for our politeness (pardon me, that sounds boastful) are also well known for our violence. It's why I keep my registered and licensed rubber chicken on my nightstand when I go to bed.

Please, don't mind me - go back to your lovely discussion and forget I was ever here. Goodbye and have a wonderful day.

How un-Canadian!

Boasting about how polite we are, apologize this instant.

I am as violent as any Canadian, I still have a few hockey sticks at age 66!

And a key! I sometimes use to to lock my door when I go away for a long time.
 
Heh. I have Canadian friends who vacation down here sometimes. They have adapted to Southern culture by learning to sip sweet tea and say "Y'all" and "Big Ol". They were already plenty polite. :lamo

(grin!)
You're pretty fast! I deleted that just after I posted it because I decided I might be making light of a serious discussion.
Damn. Was I just being too polite?
 
How un-Canadian!

Boasting about how polite we are, apologize this instant.

I am as violent as any Canadian, I still have a few hockey sticks at age 66!

And a key! I sometimes use to to lock my door when I go away for a long time.

Perfect!
 
(grin!)
You're pretty fast! I deleted that just after I posted it because I decided I might be making light of a serious discussion.
Damn. Was I just being too polite?



Ah, you're Canadian, you can't help it. Eh? :D
 
My apologies - please pardon my intrusion into your lovely thread discussion.

I just wanted to note my strong agreement with the study. We Canadians, well known for our politeness (pardon me, that sounds boastful) are also well known for our violence. It's why I keep my registered and licensed rubber chicken on my nightstand when I go to bed.

Please, don't mind me - go back to your lovely discussion and forget I was ever here. Goodbye and have a wonderful day.

This is true I once beat a man to death with my seal club, just because they looked at me the wrong way. Of course I did apologize to his widow for getting blood splatter on her dress.
 
Yea. I've been there. I actually wouldn't mind introducing a couple of the people here to a bit of pain either, if we're being completely honest (though, obviously, I won't name names). :lol:

Apparently, the prevailing theory for how this came about is due to the strong Northern English and Scottish influence in the South. The "Borderlands" between England and Scotland were an incredibly violent place throughout the Middle Ages and Early Modern era; prone to raids, ethnic strife, and blood feuds. Colonists to the Americas simply brought that culture with them.

It's been watered down a bit over the centuries, but some of the foundations are still present.

South Carolina was settled primarily by Scots-Irish, Irish and Germans. Early settlers were a tough breed of people. The lace and perfume English who settle in the coastal areas wanted a buffer between themselves and the often hostile Native Americans. Through head rights and other land schemes Scots-Irish, Irish and Germans settled inland and over the piedmont toward the Appalachians.

Historically, as I believe it remains true today, the South has always had a higher percentage of men volunteer for military service, than other regions of the U.S. It is the way it has always been. It literally is in the blood. You could argue that the English experiment of encouraging interbreeding between the Scots and the Irish in an attempt to calm the Irish down had the exact opposite effect.
 
South Carolina was settled primarily by Scots-Irish, Irish and Germans. Early settlers were a tough breed of people. The lace and perfume English who settle in the coastal areas wanted a buffer between themselves and the often hostile Native Americans. Through head rights and other land schemes Scots-Irish, Irish and Germans settled inland and over the piedmont toward the Appalachians.

Historically, as I believe it remains true today, the South has always had a higher percentage of men volunteer for military service, than other regions of the U.S. It is the way it has always been. It literally is in the blood. You could argue that the English experiment of encouraging interbreeding between the Scots and the Irish in an attempt to calm the Irish down had the exact opposite effect.



Looks that way don't it? :)


Yet Clan McGoshin consists of a lot of mighty friendly and hospitable folks, who'd give you the shirt off their back.... as long as you mind your manners. :D
 
A number of studies have indicated that societies which are known for exceptionally high levels of hospitality, and generally "polite" behavior, also tend to have exceptionally high levels of violence and murder.
Have they? It seems like you're citing one study from 1996, and parts of a book from 2004. ;)

More importantly, you're missing the key point of such studies, namely that a "culture of honor" is more likely to result in men (yes, it's almost always men, in a variety of cultures) relying on violence to resolve conflicts and maintain or enforce status. I.e. the causal factor here is not politeness, it's the "culture of honor."


Frankly, even with the increased violence, I'd much rather live in a generally pleasant and "honorable" society, where abrasive assholes are put in their place, than one where they are allowed to prance around freely, dumping all over everyone free of consequence. Maybe that's just me.
It's not you. Hence the problem.

"Honor" is not the only way to encourage people to keep their word, or be honest in dealings, or keep citizens in line. I'd also say that licensing people to use violence to enforce a code of behavior rarely results in producing a society with fewer assholes. What it does is privilege those who are willing and able to use force, regardless of the justice of the situation.

Violence is rarely beneficial, and there is no indication that a "culture of honor" actually reduces the number of unpleasant people in a society. What that culture of honor does is increase the overall amount of violence, because it often sparks cycles of violent retribution.

E.g. Stephen Pinker attributes the centuries-long reductions in violence to cultural shifts away move away from concepts of honor, towards principles like the rule of law and non-retributional forms of justice... based on these very types of studies. (IIRC he mentions the 1996 study in Better Angels of Our Nature.)

Or, to put it another way: "Honor" is an outdated, violent, brutal, barbaric concept that is detrimental to societies as a whole, and is not required to live a virtuous life. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
 
A number of studies have indicated that societies which are known for exceptionally high levels of hospitality, and generally "polite" behavior, also tend to have exceptionally high levels of violence and murder.

Counter evidence;

British culture is very often rude. It is also very often likely to rersult in a fight. That's one which causes one person to go to hospital.

Japanees culture is very polite and very non violent.

French culture is more polite than the UK and less violent. A fight in France involves a traditional bitch slap. Fights between Brits and French people don't tend to last long. :)
 
French culture is more polite than the UK and less violent.

Not a chance.

In the early part of the last century, France was the most violent nation in Europe per capita wise and is home to one of the very few indigenous European martial arts (savate). Likewise southeren France has / had an honor culture that tolerated duels into the 1900s and the word vendetta originates from the island of Corsica.
 
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Not a chance.

In the early part of the last century, France was the most violent nation in Europe per capita wise and is home to one of the very few indigenous European martial arts (savate). Likewise southeren France has / had an honor culture that tolerated duels into the 1900s and the word vendetta originates from the island of Corscica.

In the UK I have victim written on my head. In France I was the most dangerous thing on the streets of Samur, an army town.
 
In the UK I have victim written on my head. In France I was the most dangerous thing on the streets of Samur, an army town.

Having visited France quite often and having relatives in Marseille, please color me "unconvinced".

As a side note, French men in general and southeren French in particular tend to be physically smaller than other Europeans. In addition, the weight lifting adddiction never really seemed to have taken hold in France. As a result, I think it can be easy to underestimate them.
 
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We blame the violence on the heat.



I personally think it's the Moon's fault.(and no, that wasn't a play on your username, but a play on the fact that the local ER's seem to get insane when the moon is full. ) :lol:
 
Yes, Southerners tend to put a higher value on politeness and honor. Yes, insults and provocations are likely to produce anger, and possibly violence. Yes, Southern men are disinclined to let themselves be pushed around or insulted without retaliation. Don't like it, live somewhere else.

(

Just a few days ago, I was having a conversation with another woman, and a similar subject came up. She made the statement that Texas women are almost as likely to get agressive with someone who is being a jerk, as Texas men are. She may be right. I really hadn't thought about it, but having been in Texas for 54 years now, we do seem willing, and often able, to hold our own, for the most part.
 
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