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Is faith a good thing?

Amadeus said:
The question is, what is that value and is it a good thing?
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Faith is among the most powerful weapons man can wield. Faith is the power which drives human action. As such, it is immensely valuable. Faith that all men were of equal value and that we could one day live in a world where people would be judged by the content of their character rather than the color of their skin proved to be an incredible force for good in the civil rights movement. Faith in the superiority of the Aryan race and Germany's destiny as a global superpower proved to be an incredible force for evil in 1940s Germany.

I think it's clear to anyone who stops to think about what faith actually is, that it is an incredibly powerful force that has shaped the world through the centuries and will continue to do so. The more important question then, isn't whether faith is positive or negative, for we can clearly see that it can be either (or even both). The more important question is what ideas are worth having faith in? This is a different question from whether faith is warranted. Modernity was based on the idea of the inevitability of human progress; a future where war had become obsolete and political and socio-cultural divisions would no longer exist. We now realize the modernist ideal was naive and we can clearly say it was unwarranted (although some will still argue to this day that it would be a warranted belief if only you could get rid of religion); but can we say it was negative? Did this ideal not help drive some of the great advances of the modern era?

The value of faith is impossible to quantify, it is one of the most powerful forces in the world. But what's worth having faith in? Human beings? certain socio-cultural or political ideals (freedom, equality, justice, etc.)? money? your own abilities? God?

The Christian answer is straight forward. God is worth having faith in, everything else needs to spring from that. I think it's just slightly more complicated than that. The right God is worth having faith in. A faith in the god of the Westboro Baptist Church is not worth having, even if they are justifying that god using the same scriptures Christians use.

If this were in the religion sub-forum, we could go into more details about what type of god is worth having faith in; what kind of God does the bible really teach about? at what point is a certain view on God so far off that we are no longer talking about the Christian God (as is the case with Westboro)? How do you know whether you are putting your faith in the right God?...etc. But that discussion is probably not worth having here (or perhaps not anywhere in this forum at all).
 
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countryboy said:
Atheists wrongly claim atheism is a "lack of belief", when, it is quite clearly a belief that no deity, or creator could possibly exist. As far as I am concerned, atheism requires far more "blind faith" than Christianity. To adopt the atheist belief system, one must look at the obvious design of the universe around them and conclude that it is all happenstance. Now that is faith. ;)
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That's nice for you. You keep believing what you want to believe and keep living in your little bubble where you imagine that you get to tell people what they believe. Have a nice life, I regret clicking the 'View Post' button already.
 
William Rea said:
Try again.

Hint - throwing vague sentences together into a word salad is not defining something.
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That is not what I did either, and you know that. I think your contempt for your opposition in this thread has gotten the better of you.
 
OrphanSlug said:
That is not what I did either, and you know that. I think your contempt for your opposition in this thread has gotten the better of you.
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OK, if it is too complex for you, I will put up a definition for you and ask you a more simple direct question.

Definition - Belief System

a. The belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers, regarded as creating and governing the universe: respect for religion.
b. A particular variety of such belief, especially when organized into a system of doctrine and practice: the world's many religions.

Belief systems - definition of Belief systems by The Free Dictionary

Question - Please point me towards these attributes in Atheism?

If that definition is not what you meant then, please explain what you did mean.
 
Amadeus said:
Faith is essentially trust without evidence. Trust ties into faith, but they are not entirely interchangeable terms. Trust requires some evidence to some degree.

In most religions, faith is a prerequisite. Atheists/agnostics have said that if God were to make himself known (e.g. manifest as a physical being), then they would know that he exists and believe in him. This would end all religious wars, conflict, divisions, interpretations, etc. However, then it would no longer be a question of faith.

It would appear that faith does have some value. The question is, what is that value and is it a good thing?
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It can be. Faith can have many positive effects. I don't think its innately good or bad, it's how the human wields it.
 
I view the words "faith" and "hope" as highly similar in their nature.

Having hope, or faith that tomorrow will be a better day can't be a bad thing.

It's only when people lose all hope/faith that things can get REALLY serious.

If most of us didn't have faith/hope, why would any of us vote?
I have faith that my employer will pay me after I work for them.
I have faith my spouse is being 100% open and honest with me about all things.
I have faith my daughters will not become victims to anything harmful and/or destructive when they are out of my sight.
I have faith my dogs will not have pee'd all over the crate when I get home.
I have faith that people will see me and not hit me when I'm riding my motorcycle or driving my car.

Of course, knowing what not to place much faith in is pretty important too. ;)
 
William Rea said:
OK, if it is too complex for you, I will put up a definition for you and ask you a more simple direct question.

Definition - Belief System

a. The belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers, regarded as creating and governing the universe: respect for religion.
b. A particular variety of such belief, especially when organized into a system of doctrine and practice: the world's many religions.

Belief systems - definition of Belief systems by The Free Dictionary

Question - Please point me towards these attributes in Atheism?

If that definition is not what you meant then, please explain what you did mean.
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You are missing something very basic in your quest and zeal for ad hominem.

In this context, when talking about God or Gods we are talking about something that is not provable in empirical terms that both Atheists make a statement on and Theists make a statement on.

Atheists make the statement that there is no God or Gods, Theists make a statement there is a God or Gods. Neither can put forth a process that passes by scientific process to prove their case. Both end up as faiths simply because they are both making a statement they respectively believe in. Even though the definition of Atheism is lack of belief, there is still no real way for an Atheist to emphatically prove to a Theist (or Agnostic for that matter) that there is no God or Gods.

Now we can go back and forth on these terms used in the concrete ways but for the purpose of a *Philosophical* (which is where you are) conversation we get to explore.

The whole point of Philosophy, as both a study and application, is to think in an open minded manner about a subject. Using the process to discover new ways to consider how these things impact one's life as to make use of these new understandings. The point of the application of Philosophy is to see things in a manner that most others will miss, but the desire is to find an honest and open minded approach to handling various subjects. Systems of belief most certainly qualifies and someone who has studied Philosophy will probably tell you that believing a statement to be true without empirical evidence qualifies as a system of belief, even if the core suggestion is making a statement that something does not exist.

We are not talking about Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny here, we are talking about a subject that has enough complexity and implication in concept that making statements of certainty about without said evidence presents problems. In Philosophy we get to explore that, in the confines of other areas (even Religion) that conversation is usually closed. Look at it this way and it might help, we have Philosophy for the express purpose of rational inquiry into the nature of truth and fact, logic and conclusion, and the overall scope of knowledge. It then has to be an academic subject but one without the confines of what others would throw up as convent rules to close a complex conversation.
 
William Rea said:
That's nice for you. You keep believing what you want to believe and keep living in your little bubble where you imagine that you get to tell people what they believe. Have a nice life, I regret clicking the 'View Post' button already.
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I understand completely. The truth is a difficult thing for many libs.You have my sympathies.
 
Faith with knowledge is more of a hypothesis and ,Faith based on prior information is an infrence . Faith with out any isn't necessarily a good thing nor bad thing just questionable
 
1. I think mixing "religious faith" with the colloquial term "faith" just muddies the language. If I say that I have faith in you that you'll pay me back, that is me saying that based on prior experience, or based on your behavior, I generally think you are trustworthy and will pay me back. This is different than religious faith. Religious faith means that you have no real evidence to speak of yet you believe anyways. Because if you had some kind of evidence for a god, you wouldn't need faith to begin with.

2. I find that many religious people don't bring up faith all that much until you've refuted their other arguments. They'll tell you pascals wager, or the watch maker argument, and when you explain to them why that's not a good argument, then they'll start talking about how it comes down to having faith.
 
zyzygy said:
Not always. I make the statement that I have never seen any proof of the existence of a god.
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Fair point, unsure it really changes my conversation with William Rea.
 
OrphanSlug said:
You still do not get it, which is unfortunate but so be it.
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No, I get it, you have already committed a strawman fallacy which has been pointed out to you by another poster. I want you to be precise and yes, it is unfortunate that you appear to refuse to want to be precise but, in reality, not unexpected.
 
OrphanSlug said:
That is not what I did either, and you know that. I think your contempt for your opposition in this thread has gotten the better of you.
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Don't worry, he does this a lot. It's like a child stamping his feet, and screaming at the top of their voice when they do not get their own way.

William Rea said:
That's nice for you. You keep believing what you want to believe and keep living in your little bubble where you imagine that you get to tell people what they believe. Have a nice life, I regret clicking the 'View Post' button already.
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This looks nothing like Philosophical argumentation. You do realize you're in the Philosophy section?
 
gunner said:
Don't worry, he does this a lot. It's like a child stamping his feet, and screaming at the top of their voice when they do not get their own way.

This looks nothing like Philosophical argumentation. You do realize you're in the Philosophy section?
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Congratulations, your posts make no useful point whatsoever in another forum section. Do you have anything of substance to say about Atheism being a belief system? Thought not.
 
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For Orphan Slug who prefers to like posts rather than answer straightforward questions, I will put up a definition for you and ask you a more simple direct question.

Definition - Belief System

a. The belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers, regarded as creating and governing the universe: respect for religion.
b. A particular variety of such belief, especially when organized into a system of doctrine and practice: the world's many religions.

Belief systems - definition of Belief systems by The Free Dictionary

Question - Please point me towards these attributes in Atheism?

If that definition is not what you meant then, please explain what you did mean.
 
Amadeus said:
Faith is essentially trust without evidence.
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No. Faith is claim without evidence. Trust is an emotional state that has nothing to do with Scientific reality.

That's why all faith is wrong and why some people that misunderstand reality think that since they have "faith" then the object of their faith must, at the least, be acknowledged by others, which is false by definition.
 
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