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Atheist

JP Cusick said:
Any Atheist can do abortions, murder by Drones, torture people, make wars of conquest, and even individually any Atheist can lie or cheat or steal, can gratify their lust and greed, because Atheism has no moral standard and every morality is just a matter of opinion and of choice to the Atheists.

Even things like dishonor and cowardice, racism, homosex, infections, and etc etc etc, have no real meaning nor moral value in Atheism because Atheism is an empty and dead mentality.
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You know the people doing the majority of all these things are theists, yes? Atheists are a very small percentage of the population and don't hold many political offices, and yet on whole our Republic endorses things from abortion to drone bombing. Not only that, we do these things daily. Is it atheists that are making these decisions? Leading us down this path?

Your arguments are nothing more than unsubstantiated, emotionalized hysterics. Morality is derived from intelligence and empathy, not magic sky fairies.
 
Dragonfly said:
Really? Honestly? Come on man....for real????

Read that crap again and then consider what it says. Do you truly believe the nonsense you post?

It's really rather disturbing if you actually consider exactly what's been stated there.
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Yes of course I meant what I say, as I would not say it if I did not mean it.

It is like going to AA and the first step is to admit one is an alcoholic, so too in religion (for repentance) then the first step is to admit that our-self is a sinner.

The righteous people have no such need as do the lost sinners, see Matthew 9:13


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paddymcdougall said:
I don't want to pick on you, because I understand that debating Christians in the philosophy section is a good way to get dinged by the moderators if the Christians feel I have been disrespectful. So please don't take this as slamming all christians or the christian religion.

but the part I bolded above - I believe most christians on this site believe we are a christian nation; certainly most of the people in office - who make the laws - profess to be christian. It is christians who made the laws that allow immoral wars and drone attacks and occupying other countries.

Now I'm sure there are atheists who agree with everything our country does in these areas and there are those who disagree with everything our country does; most, I imagine, are like me - some things we agree with, some things we don't.

But to use those as examples of religious people having high moral standards when it was religious people who did the laws that allow those things- that really confuses me.

No, being an atheist doesn't mean you bow to the laws of the country, anymore than being christian does. Christians cheat, lie, steal, and murder, as do atheists. And Christians AND Atheists give to charities, do well by their fellow citizens, love their neighbors, ask their politicians not to go into immoral wars, etc.

In my experience, your comment that "Atheist only bow to the brute force of the Police because that is the only morality for Atheist." is totally incorrect. If you have data backing it up, I'd be happy to read it.

But I'm curious how righteous you think the Christian politicians are who made all those laws.
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I did not mean to knock Atheism so much as I was just responding to the other Poster who was claiming that Atheist have morals.

In fact I too reject orthodox (mainstream) Christianity as a bunch of nonsense promoted by hypocrites and fools, but I do not reject Jesus Christ and His teachings.

My point about Atheist and Atheism is that they do not have any doctrine or basis for any morality, so any Atheist can be moral or immoral based on their own opinion and judgement which is thereby makes Atheism into an empty and dead concept.

For a true religious person as like myself then I have the Holy Books of the world telling me what is right and what is wrong and since I do follow those guiding principles then my morality is not based on my own sovereignty.

The USA has become so much of a Police-State that the brute force of law enforcement is the only reason that most (virtually all) people remain peaceful.

If we lost the police force then the Atheist would go by their own judgements but a true Christian would still be restricted by our moral code, while the vast majority of the population would act as the barbarians which they truly are - IMO.

As such then whatever a person does in secret or in their privacy or without the force of law is their only real moral code, and that gives damnation to us all being religious or Atheist or whatever.
 
JP Cusick said:
Yes of course I meant what I say, as I would not say it if I did not mean it.

It is like going to AA and the first step is to admit one is an alcoholic, so too in religion (for repentance) then the first step is to admit that our-self is a sinner.

The righteous people have no such need as do the lost sinners, see Matthew 9:13


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I did not mean to knock Atheism so much as I was just responding to the other Poster who was claiming that Atheist have morals.

In fact I too reject orthodox (mainstream) Christianity as a bunch of nonsense promoted by hypocrites and fools, but I do not reject Jesus Christ and His teachings.
My point about Atheist and Atheism is that they do not have any doctrine or basis for any morality, so any Atheist can be moral or immoral based on their own opinion and judgement which is thereby makes Atheism into an empty and dead concept.

For a true religious person as like myself then I have the Holy Books of the world telling me what is right and what is wrong and since I do follow those guiding principles then my morality is not based on my own sovereignty.

The USA has become so much of a Police-State that the brute force of law enforcement is the only reason that most (virtually all) people remain peaceful.

If we lost the police force then the Atheist would go by their own judgements but a true Christian would still be restricted by our moral code, while the vast majority of the population would act as the barbarians which they truly are - IMO.

As such then whatever a person does in secret or in their privacy or without the force of law is their only real moral code, and that gives damnation to us all being religious or Atheist or whatever.
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While I agree atheism doesn't have a doctrine, to me it does not make it into an "empty and dead" concept. It's even more invigorating because we can debate and discuss and decide what makes moral sense today, rather than being constrained by the precepts of a religion (for example, religions that don't allow women to wear pants or religions that say don't eat sea food -whatever).

I don't think law enforcement is the only reason people remain peaceful; I think it's our civilization that keeps us peaceful. You may say that IS law enforcement, but neighbors watching out for neighbors isn't a law; it's being civilized.

And quite frankly, there are Christians who show themselves NOT to be restricted by their moral code; they can be as barbaric as a non-christian.

I do agree that what we do in secret is our true moral code; who we are when no one knows what we are doing - whether posting on a forum like this one or preparing our taxes and sneaking in an extra deduction (or not) or how we treat our family. I don't think any of us will be damned if we are immoral because I don't believe in an afterlife. But I can think of some people that SHOULD be damned if there is one.

I think at the core we both believe that how one treats others is key to whether one is moral or not; you feel like religion aids you and helps you, and that's fine. And I hope that you will keep an open mind re Atheists and realize we can be good people too without the religion.
 
JP Cusick said:
Honestly that is the beauty and the power of religion - in that religion stops the people from doing the barbarism which we would do without those beliefs.

Go into any Church and it is filled up with sinners, and accepting that reality that we each are barbarian (that we are sinners) is the first step for true repentance.

Those of us who really do follow religion in our hearts and in our lives really do have to suppress our own inner animal passions and cravings in order to do right.
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No matter how much you repent (according to the new testament) you will always be a sinner up until you die. People who believe in jesus's teachings are no better at not being sinners than anyone else. No matter how hard you try you will still sin. No matter how hard you pray, you will still sin. Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.

Christians and atheists (according to jesus's teachings in the bible) are equally sinners. Did you forget about the point behind the Resurrection? That jesus died for all of our sins, so that man can enter heaven?
 
JP Cusick said:
You make a valid point here, and as are most Atheist - it is really just anti Christianity.

I accept Jesus Christ as a true messenger from God, but I too reject Christianity as mostly hypocrites and brutes.

As such Christianity is wrong, but Jesus Christ is NOT wrong.

Christianity is misguided hypocrites and savage brutes - oh yes, but Jesus Christ is not.

The claim that people will burn in a Hell is not true, and never was any truth in it.

My own view is that people jumped onto Christianity just because of the power it produced, so that most people who claim to be Christian were all really just Atheistic in that they never believed in any real God as they took the name of Christian without any depth.

The same today with Atheism, in that people are not really Atheist as they are just anti-Christianity.

People here who claim to be Atheist and they reject murder and rape and they reject violent wrongs which means they are actually being a follower of Jesus Christ while claiming to be an Atheist.

People are far too much like sheep which run into whatever direction that is in front of them.
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Ah yes the "there is no hell theory" but if there is no hell then there is no reason to repent. It leaves us with a proposition of heaven or nonexistencee. But a place without sin is just a different type of hell. Heaven is a place where you give up ones inner self and integrity to worship a being that see's its power as being absolute, that you must obey its every whim or suffer, for all of eternity. The new testament to the holy bible goes to great lengths to show that its god is unable to forgive mans sin without forcing the believer into believing that a man named jesus was the son of a god. If it wasnt for jesus christ then what? All of us sinners (being every mortal) would cease to exist when we died? So apparently before jesus christ died the silly cross thing everyone just died there was no after life for them. Or if one believes the holy bible (instead of your personal doctrine) these people went to hell or heaven depending on if they believed in the bibles god or not.

We dont need some middle east religion to tell us not to rape and kill other people. Why should I as a American follow some other cultures religious teachings from so far away? I dont believe that **** anymore than I would believe other cultures folktales. I am a atheist I dont believe that jesus chrsit even existed or that the jesus character was even a good influence on any society. In fact I blame the bible for many of the problems that man has faced through history. Ironically the bible is mostly about religious persecution while Christian history is fraught with persecuting other religions.

Also believing that only followers of jesus christ dont rape and kill is a false dichotomy and it is pathetically self serving of you. I guess that it makes you feel good to believe that only your jesus dude taught people to not rape and kill. It is a naive trick to assert that only your god keeps people from raping and killing.

BTW you are a Christian whether you know it or not. Christianity: the religion based on the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, or its beliefs and practices.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
No matter how much you repent (according to the new testament) you will always be a sinner up until you die. People who believe in jesus's teachings are no better at not being sinners than anyone else. No matter how hard you try you will still sin. No matter how hard you pray, you will still sin. Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.

Christians and atheists (according to jesus's teachings in the bible) are equally sinners. Did you forget about the point behind the Resurrection? That jesus died for all of our sins, so that man can enter heaven?
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That is correct - every person is a sinner, and even if we are forgiven and the punishment paid then we each and all carry our sins forever and forever.

So you are correct that Christians are not really any better than Atheist or than any other religion or people, but any person that comes to the realization of our self being the sinner then those people are way ahead of anyone who does not know that they are a sinner too.

And if a Christian will murder people while an Atheist refuses to murder anyone - then we all can tell which of those two are the more righteous.

The crazy wild thing about sin is that in this life it hurts us severely, but once we become aware of our own sinfulness and we start to repent of our sins THEN our past sins become our base of strength and the root of our determination and the past sins become the true motivation that we will never do that ever again.

There is nothing in this life or beyond that gives a person more rightful motivation then the self realization that we are the wrong - that we are the sinner.

That can happen to an Atheist too, and it does not mean that the Atheist must then become a Christian, because any person that recognizes the sins (the wrongs) and starts to repent of them (start stopping the wrongs / stop the sins) then they become closer to the truth and closer to God no matter whatever they might believe or NOT believe.

Being under the name of "Christian" means nothing, but following and doing the righteousness of Christ means everything.
 
JP Cusick said:
That is correct - every person is a sinner, and even if we are forgiven and the punishment paid then we each and all carry our sins forever and forever.
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Nobody lives forever.
 
JP Cusick said:
That is correct - every person is a sinner, and even if we are forgiven and the punishment paid then we each and all carry our sins forever and forever.

So you are correct that Christians are not really any better than Atheist or than any other religion or people, but any person that comes to the realization of our self being the sinner then those people are way ahead of anyone who does not know that they are a sinner too.

And if a Christian will murder people while an Atheist refuses to murder anyone - then we all can tell which of those two are the more righteous.

The crazy wild thing about sin is that in this life it hurts us severely, but once we become aware of our own sinfulness and we start to repent of our sins THEN our past sins become our base of strength and the root of our determination and the past sins become the true motivation that we will never do that ever again.

There is nothing in this life or beyond that gives a person more rightful motivation then the self realization that we are the wrong - that we are the sinner.

That can happen to an Atheist too, and it does not mean that the Atheist must then become a Christian, because any person that recognizes the sins (the wrongs) and starts to repent of them (start stopping the wrongs / stop the sins) then they become closer to the truth and closer to God no matter whatever they might believe or NOT believe.

Being under the name of "Christian" means nothing, but following and doing the righteousness of Christ means everything.
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Because you believe in a god you have given a divine meaning to a psychical state of mind. Sins as you pointed out are what a individual perceives as something they did wrong. For the individual right and wrong is subjective when compared to other individuals. Religions, governments (ie collectives) are systems that normalize right and wrong. You as a Christian (a follower of Jesus's teachings) have given up your self integrity, your own individual knowledge of right and wrong and have joined a collective, and as a collective you no longer follow your inner self. To you right and wrong is determined by a god. But in reality you are obtaining right and wrong from a book written by men in a different time and culture. Many of those rights and wrongs apply today no matter where you are but some are very outdated and defunct.

The born again philosophy (which is what you just described) can be done without invoking a belief in a god. It has some good points as a philosophy but it also can be a dangerous route for some people. Such a philosophy can let people do heinous things to other people because they believe that at some point that can start over and those acts are forgiven. But no matter how good you act today what you did wrong yesterday is relevant today. There is no use repenting to a god when you own what you do (good or bad). What the repenter is doing is giving their guilt to their imaginary god, instead of owning up to who they are.

Atheists though just reject the notion of gods, your god and everyone elses gods. Atheists have no code that they live by as a collective. Instead we have our own individual beliefs. You keep acting as if atheists act as a collective but nothing could be farther from the truth. I know it scares believers like yourself that individuals can and do know right from wrong without being a god. But it is wrong for you as a follower of jesus to judge atheists in any such way. If you want to believe that atheists unwilling follow the teaching of that jesus character to make an excuse to as why atheists are not running wild rapping and killing then lie to yourself I dont care. But you must realize that such a belief shows a flaw in the new testament. If one can be righteous without knowing god then there is no point in believing in that god.
 
paddymcdougall said:
I think at the core we both believe that how one treats others is key to whether one is moral or not; you feel like religion aids you and helps you, and that's fine. And I hope that you will keep an open mind re Atheists and realize we can be good people too without the religion.
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In my view being moral (or being good) is great but it is not enough.

People settle for an incomplete status all the time and I reject that.

In my view we really do need fanatics and extremist and activist who will walk the streets and shout from the rooftops, and of course I want them to be righteous and not evil.

How do we tell the difference - I say that would be obvious, and we can count such ones in history, as like Mother Teresa, the Mahatma Gandhi, Abe Lincoln, Muhammad, Jesus, Buddha, and more.

Unfortunately I see that Atheists are big on seizing the middle ground as like embracing the lukewarm, and to me that middle ground is just intolerable.

I like science which is based on Atheism, because excluding the Creator-Father-God is just a logical mistake in the science.
 
JP Cusick said:
I like science which is based on Atheism, because excluding the Creator-Father-God is just a logical mistake in the science.
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It's not a logical mistake at all. Science deals with concrete, with measurement and statistic. Gods have been defined to be immeasurable, so there's nothing science can say about it.
 
Ikari said:
It's not a logical mistake at all. Science deals with concrete, with measurement and statistic. Gods have been defined to be immeasurable, so there's nothing science can say about it.
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The definition that you give is NOT accurate.

When one uses the wrong basis then they will always come up with the wrong results and wrong conclusions.

Who or where do you get that idea that God is immeasurable?

There is a Big-Bang as the Creation-Day which happened near to 13 or 14 billions years ago - so that is measurable and it measures God at the same time.

It is logical and sensible to become Atheist when one scrutinizes mainstream Christianity, because the mainstream Christianity is covered over with nonsense, as like their ideas of Heaven and of Hell are just nonsense, and their crazy claims about God being supernatural are wrong, and about God being omnipotent and infallible are wrong, and Christianity is just filled with absurd nonsense, so to reject all of that and turn to Atheism is sensible and logical.

The confusion is in the reality that just because Christianity is dead wrong then that does not mean that there is no God or Creator.

To throw out Christianity is the thing to do - yes, but to throw out God and Jesus Christ is going to far.
 
JP Cusick said:
The definition that you give is NOT accurate.

When one uses the wrong basis then they will always come up with the wrong results and wrong conclusions.

Who or where do you get that idea that God is immeasurable?

There is a Big-Bang as the Creation-Day which happened near to 13 or 14 billions years ago - so that is measurable and it measures God at the same time.

It is logical and sensible to become Atheist when one scrutinizes mainstream Christianity, because the mainstream Christianity is covered over with nonsense, as like their ideas of Heaven and of Hell are just nonsense, and their crazy claims about God being supernatural are wrong, and about God being omnipotent and infallible are wrong, and Christianity is just filled with absurd nonsense, so to reject all of that and turn to Atheism is sensible and logical.

The confusion is in the reality that just because Christianity is dead wrong then that does not mean that there is no God or Creator.

To throw out Christianity is the thing to do - yes, but to throw out God and Jesus Christ is going to far.
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The big bang is not a measurement of god. So what are the actual measurable quantities of gods? Where is the god-meter?
 
Ikari said:
The big bang is not a measurement of god. So what are the actual measurable quantities of gods? Where is the god-meter?
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My point is that there are measurements of God while you either can not see them or you just deny what is in front of your eyes.

If your claim is just that God can not be measured in pounds and inches or in the metric scale then that is your own limitation which limits your self.

And unfortunately that is a big problem for both science and for Atheism in that God does not fit into the preconceived box so they give up too easily.

A better measurement from my own non-orthodox Theist view is that God can be measured by wherever God draws the line, as in those places or circumstances where we can deduce that God had to be involved, as like the US Civil War, and of course as like the Creation Day = the BIG BANG.

Using those measurements then it starts adding up to a bigger picture, and to the reality of a God.
 
JP Cusick said:
My point is that there are measurements of God while you either can not see them or you just deny what is in front of your eyes.
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Your point is entirely fabricated, it's lies and dishonesty; nothing more. The Big Bang doesn't need a god to have happened, you seem to imply that it does. That's speculation, not a measurement. Where is the measurement? A voltmeter measures volts. What is the voltage drop over that resistor? You hook up a voltmeter and you read it directly.

You do not seem to understand "measurement". In the end, I don't really care what people believe, everyone is free to believe as they want. But there are a few people on this forum such as yourself, Tosca, and logicaman, who use arguments that try to call forth science or measurement or proof; but it's never any of those things. They are made up, they are based on supposition, on applied significance, on bad logic, or straight up lies. Science should not be a casualty of your propaganda war. Don't use terms that are incorrect. You do not have measurement, your god is not measurable.
 
Is there a chart of the strengths of the various gods?
 
JP Cusick said:
The definition that you give is NOT accurate.

When one uses the wrong basis then they will always come up with the wrong results and wrong conclusions.

Who or where do you get that idea that God is immeasurable?

There is a Big-Bang as the Creation-Day which happened near to 13 or 14 billions years ago - so that is measurable and it measures God at the same time.

It is logical and sensible to become Atheist when one scrutinizes mainstream Christianity, because the mainstream Christianity is covered over with nonsense, as like their ideas of Heaven and of Hell are just nonsense, and their crazy claims about God being supernatural are wrong, and about God being omnipotent and infallible are wrong, and Christianity is just filled with absurd nonsense, so to reject all of that and turn to Atheism is sensible and logical.

The confusion is in the reality that just because Christianity is dead wrong then that does not mean that there is no God or Creator.

To throw out Christianity is the thing to do - yes, but to throw out God and Jesus Christ is going to far.
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So your big tactic is just to make up **** and pretend that your argument is untouchable? You remind me of a kid with a imaginary friend. When asked questions they just keep moving the goal post. "You are not sitting on him silly! He is over there"
 
Ikari said:
Your point is entirely fabricated, it's lies and dishonesty; nothing more. The Big Bang doesn't need a god to have happened, you seem to imply that it does. That's speculation, not a measurement. Where is the measurement? A voltmeter measures volts. What is the voltage drop over that resistor? You hook up a voltmeter and you read it directly.

You do not seem to understand "measurement". In the end, I don't really care what people believe, everyone is free to believe as they want. But there are a few people on this forum such as yourself, Tosca, and logicaman, who use arguments that try to call forth science or measurement or proof; but it's never any of those things. They are made up, they are based on supposition, on applied significance, on bad logic, or straight up lies. Science should not be a casualty of your propaganda war. Don't use terms that are incorrect. You do not have measurement, your god is not measurable.
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I wonder how tall god is?
 
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