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Why are some people...

stonewall50 said:
Well that is good and logical. But you should probably not try and use YOUR definition of what is Christian. Not so much because it is "wrong," but because there are literally thousands of denominations of Christians (41,000) with a variety of views. And if you take certain churches (Like the Baptist church [I am not a member...but I do pick on them a little]), even in the SAME denomination they have varied views from church to church and person to person.

I am PC USA. We just allowed gay marriage in our Church. There are 3 books for PC USA. The Book of Confessions, Order, and the Bible. These dictate core concepts. There is debate on topics in the church. The meaning of passages. What translations mean. That kind of thing. And it changes. It is an attempt to correct a lot of the problems that are still hold overs from pre reformation times, and even during the reformation times.

I hope that makes sense. I am trying to caution you against lumping all Christians under and "assigned" view and then saying the rest are NOT Christians. That kind of thinking is what causes genocides. THOSE guys are believers. Those guys believe something basically the same, but slightly different so they NON believers and must die.
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If a person is not actually living by the tenets of their religion, then they aren't Christians or Jews or Muslims or whatever. Sorry, they may claim it, but they aren't. So anyone who has been divorced, used contraception, had an abortion, judged anyone else's behavior that didn't directly effect them, medically recovered from life threatening illness or injury, and so on, isn't religious, they're just liars about being religious.
 
Cephus said:
In fact, you did say it. I quoted you saying it.
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In a question. That is different than me calling it delusional. You still haven't clarified. I am waiting.
 
Summerwind said:
If a person is not actually living by the tenets of their religion, then they aren't Christians or Jews or Muslims or whatever. Sorry, they may claim it, but they aren't. So anyone who has been divorced, used contraception, had an abortion, judged anyone else's behavior that didn't directly effect them, medically recovered from life threatening illness or injury, and so on, isn't religious, they're just liars about being religious.
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Have you ever sat in a Christian Church? Because you are missing one MAJOR portion of Christianity:

Romans 3:23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard
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More importantly though. You are committing the ahistoric fallacy (pigeonhole fallacy).

Pigeonholing Fallacy / Ahistoric Fallacy

You know fallacies are by their nature illogical and unsound arguments right?

Fallacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
stonewall50 said:
Have you ever sat in a Christian Church? Because you are missing one MAJOR portion of Christianity:



More importantly though. You are committing the ahistoric fallacy (pigeonhole fallacy).

Pigeonholing Fallacy / Ahistoric Fallacy

You know fallacies are by their nature illogical and unsound arguments right?

Fallacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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You guys always have wriggle when faced with the realities that very few truly believe, believe enough to live their supposed tenets. It would be different if those folks felt they had in fact "sinned" by being alive after their god tried to kill them, or refused to have the baby god allowed to be in their womb, or refused to let the womb grow a baby, or judged anyone not directly effecting them... they don't, hence why your attempt to salvage them won't work.
 
Summerwind said:
You guys always have wriggle when faced with the realities that very few truly believe, believe enough to live their supposed tenets. It would be different if those folks felt they had in fact "sinned" by being alive after their god tried to kill them, or refused to have the baby god allowed to be in their womb, or refused to let the womb grow a baby, or judged anyone not directly effecting them... they don't, hence why your attempt to salvage them won't work.
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AGAIN...a fallacious argument. Your argument is founded upon what YOU believe is Christianity. What YOU believe is Chrisitianity is NOT what Christianity is. NOR is what I believe Christianity. Christianity CANNOT be put into a SPECIFIC set of beliefs. As I stated...there are 41,000 versions of Christianity. Are you suggesting there is a RIGHT one? That would ALSO be fallacious to do so. You can't. I can't. I only know what I believe. I don't make that claim for others. That would be WRONG.

Your argument is WRONG at the fundamental logical level. It just is. You can't provide evidence as to what Christianity is supposed to believe. NOW. And if you argue this to religion as a whole, your pool of beliefs and versions grows even larger than 41,000. You would be trying to assign a specific "correct answer" to literally millions of beliefs.

This is like saying there is a CORRECT political party or form of government. This isn't wriggle. It is fact.
 
stonewall50 said:
In a question. That is different than me calling it delusional. You still haven't clarified. I am waiting.
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Yes, belief in anything for which there is no objective evidence is delusion.
 
stonewall50 said:
AGAIN...a fallacious argument. Your argument is founded upon what YOU believe is Christianity. What YOU believe is Chrisitianity is NOT what Christianity is. NOR is what I believe Christianity. Christianity CANNOT be put into a SPECIFIC set of beliefs. As I stated...there are 41,000 versions of Christianity. Are you suggesting there is a RIGHT one? That would ALSO be fallacious to do so. You can't. I can't. I only know what I believe. I don't make that claim for others. That would be WRONG.

Your argument is WRONG at the fundamental logical level. It just is. You can't provide evidence as to what Christianity is supposed to believe. NOW. And if you argue this to religion as a whole, your pool of beliefs and versions grows even larger than 41,000. You would be trying to assign a specific "correct answer" to literally millions of beliefs.

This is like saying there is a CORRECT political party or form of government. This isn't wriggle. It is fact.
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Christianity is about believing in the supposed word of god as transcribed in the New Testament. Most Christians don't, hence they are not Christians, regardless of the claim otherwise. A very hopeful situation.
 
Glowpun said:
so touchy about religion?

Some people got riled up with the statement that when you look at human history more people have been killed in the name of God than for any other reason.
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Noone alive today had anything to do with the crusades so bringing that up is exactly like blaming modern white people for slavory in 1700s.

You're basicaly blaming people for things that clearly aren't their fault and then you bitch when they don't like it.
 
Jerry said:
Noone alive today had anything to do with the crusades so bringing that up is exactly like blaming modern white people for slavory in 1700s.

You're basicaly blaming people for things that clearly aren't their fault and then you bitch when they don't like it.
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You don't have to go back to the crusades to see that people are being killed in the name of god. What do you think ISIS is doing? What do you think we were saying as a country when we felt the need to add stupid stuff like "in god we trust" on our money, and such... If you're claiming god is on your side of a war, you're fighting in the name of god. And the USA has done that in every single conflict I've been alive to witness.

I was quite pleased when Obama tried to point out that the best way to avoid the current issues of religious zealotry and terrorism is to refuse to recognize any attachment to any religion. It hasn't worked, but it is the right idea. As long as people don't agree with that, and are willing to side with the terrorists in claiming it's a religious war, then it's a religious war. Now who thinks Obama's idea was crap and that the current terrorism is an Islam/Muslim issue.... rightwingers. You guys make them religious wars, pretty much all of them.
 
Summerwind said:
You don't have to go back to the crusades to see that people are being killed in the name of god. What do you think ISIS is doing? What do you think we were saying as a country when we felt the need to add stupid stuff like "in god we trust" on our money, and such... If you're claiming god is on your side of a war, you're fighting in the name of god. And the USA has done that in every single conflict I've been alive to witness.

I was quite pleased when Obama tried to point out that the best way to avoid the current issues of religious zealotry and terrorism is to refuse to recognize any attachment to any religion. It hasn't worked, but it is the right idea. As long as people don't agree with that, and are willing to side with the terrorists in claiming it's a religious war, then it's a religious war. Now who thinks Obama's idea was crap and that the current terrorism is an Islam/Muslim issue.... rightwingers. You guys make them religious wars, pretty much all of them.
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It is also incorrect to claim religion has caused the most violence in history.
 
Summerwind said:
Christianity is about believing in the supposed word of god as transcribed in the New Testament. Most Christians don't, hence they are not Christians, regardless of the claim otherwise. A very hopeful situation.
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Again. A fallacious argument. Have you visited with all 41,000 denominations and their members?
 
stonewall50 said:
It is also incorrect to claim religion has caused the most violence in history.
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I don't know anyone who has made that claim. Most violence through out history has been personal. However most wars involve people claiming their god is the one and only and is on their side.
 
stonewall50 said:
Again. A fallacious argument. Have you visited with all 41,000 denominations and their members?
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If that's not Christianity, then please illuminate me. Either you have firm belief and adherence to the New Testaments tenets, or you're not a Christian.
 
Summerwind said:
I don't know anyone who has made that claim. Most violence through out history has been personal.
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Glow pun at the beginning of this thread. And perhaps that is true.

However most wars involve people claiming their god is the one and only and is on their side.
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Not true. Not even close. The largest wars in history were political. Hell. The biggest "religious wars" can be argued to have been political wars. That includes the Crusades.

Now. I know. Religion was used to recruit people. That doesn't mean it was the CAUSE. That means it was the scapegoat. The Pope wanting to kick all the armies out of Europe? Money and power? I mean the true reasons for even "religious wars" was likely "personal" or rather, political.
 
Summerwind said:
If that's not Christianity, then please illuminate me. Either you have firm belief and adherence to the New Testaments tenets, or you're not a Christian.
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Again. I can't tell you what true Christianity is. I can only tell you what I believe. You have made it clear you don't care what I believe. So why would I share?

Additionally. I will not engage in the ahistoric fallacy that you have committed and seem content to continue.
 
stonewall50 said:
Again. I can't tell you what true Christianity is. I can only tell you what I believe. You have made it clear you don't care what I believe. So why would I share?

Additionally. I will not engage in the ahistoric fallacy that you have committed and seem content to continue.
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If Christianity is so flexible in it's tenets that you can choose what it is, then you're not a Christian. The answer is in the name.... either you adopt and adhere to the teachings of a supposed man named Jesus who claimed to be the one and only son of the one and only god, (and/or recognize every divergence from those teachings a sin) or you are not a Christian, you only claim to be.
 
stonewall50 said:
Again. I can't tell you what true Christianity is. I can only tell you what I believe. You have made it clear you don't care what I believe. So why would I share?

Additionally. I will not engage in the ahistoric fallacy that you have committed and seem content to continue.
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My edit to add some thoughts to my last post ran long so I'll simply post them separately in case you've responded with the previous quote while I was typing. So this is an add on to my last post.

The thing is, and the most telling aspect that most of those you think are Christians, is that the main teaching of Jesus according to the New Testament, was that one has the right to die for their beliefs, as he does willingly, but one does not have the right to kill for belief or apparently even self-defense since he did not defend himself, avoid capture, or in anyway harm Judas who set him up. He says only God can judge, and God's will should not be feared or shunned, including death, and yet Americans fight death with greater vengeance and fortune than nearly anywhere else on earth and are quite the judgmental lot on persons, communities, and countries, quite the busy-bodies we are.

Most American Christians don't seem to get that. Perhaps it worldwide, but I mainly know people here so am trying to not extend past my own knowledge.
 
stonewall50 said:
Delusion as in a mental illness?
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It can be. More along the lines of an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument.
 
Glowpun said:
so touchy about religion?

Some people got riled up with the statement that when you look at human history more people have been killed in the name of God than for any other reason.
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People tend to get riled up by bold-faced lies.
 
Cephus said:
Yes, belief in anything for which there is no objective evidence is delusion.
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I'm glad to hear that you reject atheism now.
 
joko104 said:
Because that is absolutely false? That would seem the primary reason.

The slaughter of the indigenous peoples of North, Central and South America and the Caribbean had nothing to do with religion.
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False, as various monarchs ordered their explorers, including Magellan, to leave christian lands untouched, but to butcher everyone else as they pleased


joko104 said:
The Civil War, WWI and WW2 had nothing to do with religion. The genocide of Stalin and Mao had nothing to do with religion, and the holocaust was about ethnicity, not religion.

The American Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, the Spanish American War, the Korean War and the War in Vietnam had nothing to do with religion. The Mongol invasion wasn't about religion. The building of the Ottoman Empire was not directly about religion. I don't think the War between Romans and Greeks was about religion. Nor the war between Egypt and the Hittites. The war between Russia and Japan wasn't about religion, now the wars by Japan against China and Korea.
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Stalin and Mao were gods, like the north korean dictators. They just shifted the focus to the leaders. This tactic has been used since the pharoahs at least. In addition, a huge mass of those involved on every side in these conflicts believed adamantly that "the good lord" was on their side. Now, i do believe that after the enlightenment period, nationalism for the most part supplanted religion as the dominant means of coercing the population to take up arms, but to say religion had "nothing" to do with any war in history, that is most likely incorrect

It's like saying religion was a total non factor during the holocaust. Really, jews were targeted above all and their faith had *nothing* to do with that? How about catholics or jehova's witnesses, who were also victims?

You're also purposefully leaving out various conflicts completely driven by religion - the crusades, the entire OT, 30 years war (roughly 5 million deaths), islamic conflict up to israel-palestine today. There has also been widespread oppression of various groups entirely due to religion - women, homosexuals, nonbelievers

I think one critical reason for why religious violence gets a lot of flack is they are always *entirely avoidable* and fought for literally nothing
 
Paleocon said:
I'm glad to hear that you reject atheism now.
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Oh? Has anyone produced a single shred of objective evidence for any religion? No? Then why would I do that? :roll:
 
Summerwind said:
Perhaps then they should not be shunning intelligence and education.
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The ones I encounter here keep telling me, why I know nothing about my profession. ;)
 
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