Prayer's Needed.. Why??

SouthernDemocrat said:

I am not talking about prayers for support. Asking for prayers to get through a difficult time is not what I am talking about. I am talking about prayers for a miracle. Basically, when one asks for everyone to pray for their loved one that is sick or injured or missing or in danger. I certainly understand the motivation for such an appeal. My question is, why does a supposedly loving and compassionate God require a bunch of people begging and pleading with him before he consider maybe helping someone?

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God does not require that people ask for prayers. Some people do it; some do not. Those who do are simply asking for your support because they thought of people supporting them gives them comfort. There are no magic words. People have different ways of asking the same thing.

DifferentDrummr said:

Assuming that God exists at all, it should be painfully obvious that He doesn't micromanage human affairs. By analogy, a president (any president) may love his/her family, but that person still can't help every single American.

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I guess I am having a hard time getting across my point. A lot of people honestly believe that God can and does heal the sick and deliver people from danger and suffering. So that is the presumption that we are operating from in this thread - that there is a God, he answers prayers, and he heals the sick and delivers people from danger. So if that is the case, why does he require a bunch people begging him to get him to maybe decide to do that?

SouthernDemocrat said:

Let me start by saying that I was raised Christian, but I am no longer religious. One thing that I often see are appeals like the following:

"My son [FONT=Helvetica, Arial, lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif]needs your prayers. He started shivering and spiked a high fever. We are at the hospital right now waiting for them to do some tests."[/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif]"Our father was rushed to the hospital last night with chest pains. Please pray for him."[/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif]"My wife's cancer is not responding to chemo. Please pray."[/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif]We have all seen appeals like those. Parents whose child is sick or has been involved in an accident asking for others to pray for them. People praying for loved ones that are sick or have gone missing, or have been in an accident and so on. Of course we always feel for them, particularly when its a parent whose child is sick or injured. What I don't understand though is why if God is a good and loving god, does he need hundreds of people or more begging and pleading with him before he considers helping someone? It seems to me that if one is to accept the "power of prayer", then it follows that God is up there in heaven like this:

"Well sorry to tell you that you will have to watch your child die a long and agonizing death, but tell you what. If you get enough people down there to beg and plead with me on behalf of your child, I might, just might, change my mind."

Am I the only one that sees it that way?[/FONT]

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So I'll approach this like I approach most other ideas regarding ideas that are believed despite the fact there is no evidence to demonstrate that they are true. In the case of prayer, there is evidence to the contrary....

Having said that, imo, asking for prayer is more of a social action. It lets people know that there are others that care, sympathize and empathize with your situation, but when in church and the pastor requests that people pray and the person they are praying for isn't even there to hear it, where is the benefit? Simple, many in that church may at some point may will know that others are praying form them when they aren't there and that will make them feel good.

Is there any harm in praying.....

Well the saying two hands working can accomplish more than 1000 hands praying......Certainly if you leave it to prayer only to solve you're problems, well there is some harm in that, but I don't think any person of faith will say that's how prayer works...Something akin to giving someone a bottle of Advil for a headache and they take all 100 tablets and die. Simply a misapplication of the solution....

Maybe....Those who are sick who know that there are people out there praying for them may actually place a certain amount of stress on the person who is sick, I presume because they feel somehow responsible if they fail to get well, or perhaps question their own worthiness in the eyes of god.....In all fairness as I've already said, that's not necessarily the fault of religion, it could just be that people don't know how to practice their religion correctly. The question in my mind is, why is it so difficult to get straight answers on the "right" way to do virtually anything when it comes to religion, perhaps because it's entirely based on interpretation?


Personally, telling others simply to think of and support others who are going though some type hardship would probably be enough.

In all, people praying for one another isn't all that high on my list of things to knock when it comes to religion and I think if the devout find comfort in it, I think the experience is largely positive. No different then the positive effects that people get from taking a placebo.

clownboy said:

It is a cry for community and fellowship, a way for people to be there for someone in their community when there's absolutely nothing else they can do. Why does this bother you so?

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Asking for support of course doesn't bother me. I am not referring to an appeal for prayers for support. To restate what I wrote earlier:

A lot of people honestly believe that God can and does heal the sick and deliver people from danger and suffering. So that is the presumption that we are operating from in this thread - that there is a God, he answers prayers, and he heals the sick and delivers people from danger. So if that is the case, why does he require a bunch people begging him to get him to maybe decide to do that?

Logically speaking, intercessory prayer doesn't make the tiniest bit of sense.

Emotionally, it makes sense. The requestor feels powerless and helpless, and asking a supernatural entity to intervene is, to their minds, an action that influences events. Psychology experiments, by the way, show that helplessness makes people miserable, and even the illusion of agency improves mood.

I also regard it as a measure of care for the subject of said prayers.

Visbek said:

Logically speaking, intercessory prayer doesn't make the tiniest bit of sense.

Emotionally, it makes sense. The requestor feels powerless and helpless, and asking a supernatural entity to intervene is, to their minds, an action that influences events. Psychology experiments, by the way, show that helplessness makes people miserable, and even the illusion of agency improves mood.

I also regard it as a measure of care for the subject of said prayers.

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That I agree with. My question is, obviously intercessory prayer does make sense to a lot of people even though it makes no logical sense to me. So I am wondering what is the logical (not scriptural) case for intercessory prayer? I am not talking about prayers for support getting through a difficult time. That makes perfect sense. I am talking about prayers asking for a miracle.

SouthernDemocrat said:

I guess I am having a hard time getting across my point. A lot of people honestly believe that God can and does heal the sick and deliver people from danger and suffering. So that is the presumption that we are operating from in this thread - that there is a God, he answers prayers, and he heals the sick and delivers people from danger. So if that is the case, why does he require a bunch people begging him to get him to maybe decide to do that?

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It is a well known fact that people are terrible at determining the actual cause of a series of events and tend to ignore results that don't fit into their preconceptions. If a person prays and they get better, they give credit to god, but if they pray and things go badly, they simply ignore it or rationalize it away.

This is why, in the modern age people are still superstitious. They connect series of events and assume that wearing a baseball cap, or carrying a rabbits foot, or any other manner of ritual will bring luck.....It's silly and it's a side affect of our pattern seeking brains.

DifferentDrummr said:

Praying for a miracle is still misguided. Remember that Janis Joplin song that began "Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz?"

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No, it's not. It gives comfort to some folks that their friends and family and community are praying for them, keeping them in their thoughts and concerns of the day. And Janis could have afforded a Benz easily.

CRUE CAB said:

Well, sorry to tell you. You have failed as a human if you don't see the need to ask for help, even if its only spiritual, in tough times.

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He never said he didn't see the need to ask for help. He said he didn't understand why people think asking for prayers was helpful at all. A completely different thing.

SouthernDemocrat said:

Asking for support of course doesn't bother me. I am not referring to an appeal for prayers for support. To restate what I wrote earlier:

A lot of people honestly believe that God can and does heal the sick and deliver people from danger and suffering. So that is the presumption that we are operating from in this thread - that there is a God, he answers prayers, and he heals the sick and delivers people from danger. So if that is the case, why does he require a bunch people begging him to get him to maybe decide to do that?

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I suppose that depends on your/their view of God. Personally I'm not of the view that God is a vending machine where if you only put in enough coins you get the item you selected.

Logicman said:

There's reasons for sickness and unanswered prayer:

Unanswered Prayers: The Most Common Reasons Why

You may have been raised a Christian but you obviously never knew the indwelling Holy Spirit, or you would have known it was real.

And it appears you never really studied the Bible, so I seriously doubt you ever gave Christianity a fair chance.

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More religious woo-woo. Christianity is purposefully set up in a way to where they always have an excuse.

Was your prayer fulfilled? Praise God!
Was it not fulfilled? Well that's not how this works!

And then they act like these explanations actually mean anything. It's the equivalent of saying "Watch how smart I am! If you roll this dice I predict it will be either a 1 or a 2 or a 3 or a 4 or a 5 or a 6!"

SouthernDemocrat said:

Let me start by saying that I was raised Christian, but I am no longer religious. One thing that I often see are appeals like the following:

"My son [FONT=Helvetica, Arial, lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif]needs your prayers. He started shivering and spiked a high fever. We are at the hospital right now waiting for them to do some tests."[/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif]"Our father was rushed to the hospital last night with chest pains. Please pray for him."[/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif]"My wife's cancer is not responding to chemo. Please pray."[/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif]We have all seen appeals like those. Parents whose child is sick or has been involved in an accident asking for others to pray for them. People praying for loved ones that are sick or have gone missing, or have been in an accident and so on. Of course we always feel for them, particularly when its a parent whose child is sick or injured. What I don't understand though is why if God is a good and loving god, does he need hundreds of people or more begging and pleading with him before he considers helping someone? It seems to me that if one is to accept the "power of prayer", then it follows that God is up there in heaven like this:

"Well sorry to tell you that you will have to watch your child die a long and agonizing death, but tell you what. If you get enough people down there to beg and plead with me on behalf of your child, I might, just might, change my mind."

Am I the only one that sees it that way?[/FONT]

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I think you are right. God doesn't work that way and the bible does not say that he does. But people like feeling like they are doing something and this helps give them something to do in situations where otherwise they would just have to wait. It may not be theologically sound, but I think it's psychologically helpful so I'm not in a hurry to correct people's theology on this.

roughdraft274 said:

More religious woo-woo. Christianity is purposefully set up in a way to where they always have an excuse.

Was your prayer fulfilled? Praise God!
Was it not fulfilled? Well that's not how this works!

And then they act like these explanations actually mean anything. It's the equivalent of saying "Watch how smart I am! If you roll this dice I predict it will be either a 1 or a 2 or a 3 or a 4 or a 5 or a 6!"

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Let people have their own beliefs and you get to have yours. This is about comfort, not about your inability to understand why people believe in God.

clownboy said:

Let people have their own beliefs and you get to have yours. This is about comfort, not about your inability to understand why people believe in God.

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When did I ever say that they couldn't have their beliefs? If they need it to comfort them then by all means. I've never in my life told someone who was grieving or was in a situation "hey, ya know that prayer is BS right?" but on a forum I think I'm entitled to share my opinions.

roughdraft274 said:

He never said he didn't see the need to ask for help. He said he didn't understand why people think asking for prayers was helpful at all. A completely different thing.

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What is the difference?
He has the gall to question how and why people ask for prayers. Its not like they are asking for prayers to win the lottery.

SouthernDemocrat said:

I am wondering what is the logical (not scriptural) case for intercessory prayer? I am not talking about prayers for support getting through a difficult time. That makes perfect sense. I am talking about prayers asking for a miracle.

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Are you asking why emotionally-influenced beliefs allow people to ignore inconsistencies and contradictions?

Or are you asking how the theological premises actually operate and apply?

CRUE CAB said:

What is the difference?
He has the gall to question how and why people ask for prayers. Its not like they are asking for prayers to win the lottery.

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Re-read his post. At no point in time did he question why the people are asking for prayers or how they do it. He is directly asking, if the prayers are actually reaching a deity, why does he need all these prayers to do something that any normal person, you or me, would do with out question.

If you or I saw a little girl get a deadly disease and we could waive our hands and fix it, we would. But it appears that God needs further motivation. He's asking about the philosophical implications of this concept.

You should really get out of threads like these. They aren't good for people that aren't willing to really read what is being typed and honestly consider it. Blind partisan ranting fares better on the gun control and political forums.

CRUE CAB said:

What is the difference?
He has the gall to question how and why people ask for prayers. Its not like they are asking for prayers to win the lottery.

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Is there really much of a theological or metaphysical difference between asking a deity to help others, as opposed to helping one's self?

"Help me win the lottery" and "help my sick relative" are both intercessory prayers. They're asking the deity to intervene in the world. While there may be an ethical difference, the fundamental mechanics don't change because one request is selfish and the other is altruistic.

And why should this be off-base? We ask intrusive questions all the time, frequently about total strangers. Why did he marry that woman? Why did you pick the red Corvette instead of the gray minivan? Why did she cheat on her husband? I don't see why this topic should be off-limits.

whysoserious said:

A big mmmmmmmmmmmmmk as the reason a prayer isn't answered. I guess everyone who prayed for world peace was unworthy? Maybe prayers go unanswered because it's a bit ridiculous to think there is an all powerful being who, if he/she/it exists, gives enough of a **** to actually care what some moron wants to happen.

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Maybe it's because of stiff-necked people who mock God, his Word, and his people. Or maybe it's because a lot of people learn humility in suffering. There's a lot of reasons.

SouthernDemocrat said:

My mother died of Cancer at age 56. It was as miserable of a death as you could possibly imagine. This was for a woman that was active, never smoked, never was obese, always took care of her health but just due to genetics had a high risk of cancer. My mother was also a lifelong Christian and was well known in her community for helping others. In fact, there was hardly a Christmas or Thanksgiving that we did not have someone that was homeless and or did not have a family eating with us. At the time she was really sick I remember thinking my mother is sick and in constant pain and while I appreciate the sentiment of her friends saying they will pray for her and I am sure that they did, why does God need all these people begging him to help her when he can obviously see himself that she is in horrible pain and enduring unimaginable suffering? If I were God you would not need half the community begging and pleading with me to get me to ease someone's suffering.

When my mother waited to find out that her cancer was chemo resistant. She prayed that she would have the strength to accept what would happen regardless of how bad it was. I can understand that prayer. I am not in any way against prayer. My point is when we pray to ask God to heal a sick child it seems to me that it makes God out to be a pretty bad guy. I mean why should he require a bunch of people to beg him to do what any decent person would do if they could? Moreover, if it is all part of God's plan, then why should a bunch of people begging him make any difference?

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Who said God requires these prayers? I think most people ask for prayers because they are powerless to do anything else and are desperate for help, so they do the only thing they have left to do.

I believe people who respond positively to prayer requests empathize with the requestor and do the only thing they can possibly do in the situation.

All in all, I think that's a much more human interaction than "oh well, tough ****".

roughdraft274 said:

More religious woo-woo. Christianity is purposefully set up in a way to where they always have an excuse.

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Nope, that's godless liberalism that's full of excuses and nonsense.

roughdraft274 said:

Was your prayer fulfilled? Praise God!
Was it not fulfilled? Well that's not how this works!

And then they act like these explanations actually mean anything. It's the equivalent of saying "Watch how smart I am! If you roll this dice I predict it will be either a 1 or a 2 or a 3 or a 4 or a 5 or a 6!"

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Next time you need a miracle make sure you face east and pray to Oprah.

Visbek said:

Is there really much of a theological or metaphysical difference between asking a deity to help others, as opposed to helping one's self?

"Help me win the lottery" and "help my sick relative" are both intercessory prayers. They're asking the deity to intervene in the world. While there may be an ethical difference, the fundamental mechanics don't change because one request is selfish and the other is altruistic.

And why should this be off-base? We ask intrusive questions all the time, frequently about total strangers. Why did he marry that woman? Why did you pick the red Corvette instead of the gray minivan? Why did she cheat on her husband? I don't see why this topic should be off-limits.

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Topic off limits? No, but did you read his reasoning in his OP. Very condescending and almost a hope to attempt an insult to anyone that does pray for a family member and or asks others to if they are of the same bend.

Logicman said:

Nope, that's godless liberalism that's full of excuses and nonsense.



Next time you need a miracle make sure you face east and pray to Oprah.

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Maybe Oprah will just cut a check.

roughdraft274 said:

Re-read his post. At no point in time did he question why the people are asking for prayers or how they do it. He is directly asking, if the prayers are actually reaching a deity, why does he need all these prayers to do something that any normal person, you or me, would do with out question.

If you or I saw a little girl get a deadly disease and we could waive our hands and fix it, we would. But it appears that God needs further motivation. He's asking about the philosophical implications of this concept.

You should really get out of threads like these. They aren't good for people that aren't willing to really read what is being typed and honestly consider it. Blind partisan ranting fares better on the gun control and political forums.

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I read, and am sorry if my answers and tone are too straight forward for your types. People post the things like the OP, hoping for an argument.

CRUE CAB said:

Topic off limits? No, but did you read his reasoning in his OP.

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Yes. By DP standards, his question is downright tame.

Very condescending and almost a hope to attempt an insult to anyone that does pray for a family member and or asks others to if they are of the same bend.

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No individuals are named. He's not talking about a specific situation. Plenty of religious people are willing to say far, far harsher things about materialists / atheists. Anyone participating in the philosophy subforum ought to recognize that tough questions will be asked.

I assure you, by the way, there are FAR more direct, condescending, insulting and vicious of ways to insult people who practice intercessory prayer.