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Free will or fate?

I don't agree with that. Making a choice to do what you SHOULD do, rather than what you may desire to do, is using free will. Iow, I WILL to do what I believe is the right thing to do, regardless of my level of discomfort or my tendency to do what's easy and natural.



Isn't accepting that there is something that you "should" do and then doing that thing fulfilling your desire to do what should be done?
 
Isn't accepting that there is something that you "should" do and then doing that thing fulfilling your desire to do what should be done?
Yes, but it isn't the "natural" choice. It requires an act of conscious will, and doesnt merely boil down to an action dictated by nature and subconscious chemical neurological processes.
 
Yes, but it isn't the "natural" choice. It requires an act of conscious will, and doesnt merely boil down to an action dictated by nature and subconscious chemical neurological processes.



It seems to be obvious that any conscious reckoning of the direction of self is the proof of free will.

The word games about cause and effect and determinism are just that.
 
Again, it is your choice to believe this.
You keep stating this without supplying any reasoning to your argument that would support your belief that free will can exist in a causal universe.

If you believe that there is a cause and effect for everything Causality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia it's tough to make a consistent argument that the universe isn't deterministic. Determinism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Think of the universe like the board game Mouse Trap: you can see the various parts of the Rube Goldberg contraption as independent, but they're not. They're cause and effect, and the ultimately the cause is the beginning and the rest are all effects. That's how our universe is. We're all just the equivalent of the various chutes, bathtubs, staircases, etc and the marble is the universe unfolding.
 
You keep stating this without supplying any reasoning to your argument that would support your belief that free will can exist in a causal universe.

If you believe that there is a cause and effect for everything Causality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia it's tough to make a consistent argument that the universe isn't deterministic. Determinism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Think of the universe like the board game Mouse Trap: you can see the various parts of the Rube Goldberg contraption as independent, but they're not. They're cause and effect, and the ultimately the cause is the beginning and the rest are all effects. That's how our universe is. We're all just the equivalent of the various chutes, bathtubs, staircases, etc and the marble is the universe unfolding.




I'm not trying to be obstinate, but that line of logic is simply bankrupt.

The analogy you made to the bouncing ball is a good one. We are not bouncing balls.

In the early days of the space program, somebody observed to an astronaut that he was not much different than the monkey that preceded him in the passenger seat of the spacecraft. The astronaut observed that the monkey didn't know he might die as a result of sitting in that chair.

Being self aware and able to have an impact on the outcome is what differentiates the straight line cause effect of the ball hitting the wall and bouncing.

The esoteric game of determinism is an interesting diversion, but does not have any impact on the reality that what I do is my own choice lacking outside coercion or control. However, even in that circumstance, my willing cooperation with the controller is required.

Your viewpoint, though, is a powerful argument against the existence of God as defined by Christianity. How could an all knowing, all seeing, merciful God create beings that He knows with absolute certainty will suffer in damnation for all of Eternity? Not much mercy in evidence in that proposed existence.
 
I'm not trying to be obstinate, but that line of logic is simply bankrupt.

The analogy you made to the bouncing ball is a good one. We are not bouncing balls.

In the early days of the space program, somebody observed to an astronaut that he was not much different than the monkey that preceded him in the passenger seat of the spacecraft. The astronaut observed that the monkey didn't know he might die as a result of sitting in that chair.

Being self aware and able to have an impact on the outcome is what differentiates the straight line cause effect of the ball hitting the wall and bouncing.

The esoteric game of determinism is an interesting diversion, but does not have any impact on the reality that what I do is my own choice lacking outside coercion or control. However, even in that circumstance, my willing cooperation with the controller is required.

Your viewpoint, though, is a powerful argument against the existence of God as defined by Christianity. How could an all knowing, all seeing, merciful God create beings that He knows with absolute certainty will suffer in damnation for all of Eternity? Not much mercy in evidence in that proposed existence.
Calvinism is a denomination of Christianity that accepts determinism. The two aren't incompatible, even if it's not a popular position for churchgoers to accept.

You're right in the regard that we still have the illusion of free will, so ultimately it won't have a good deal of impact on our lives since we won't know what will be until it occurs, but as you point out it certainly raises moral questions in regard to religion.
 
Allowed to think that?? I don't have a choice in the matter. Just as you don't have a choice in thinking there is free will.

So what do you propose we do with our criminal justice system? Since apparently nobody has a choice in what they do, they are puppets of an invisible sky daddy. Why punish people for what they cannot control?
 
So what do you propose we do with our criminal justice system? Since apparently nobody has a choice in what they do, they are puppets of an invisible sky daddy. Why punish people for what they cannot control?
I'm a supporter of reform to our criminal justice system regardless. Ultimately determinism isn't incompatible with our current justice system, however.
 
So what do you propose we do with our criminal justice system? Since apparently nobody has a choice in what they do, they are puppets of an invisible sky daddy. Why punish people for what they cannot control?


Because we have no choice but to dance to the illusion that we have a choice. Part of that destiny is believing we have free will. All is predetermined, it's just unpredictable by us.

I do hope you realize I am being snarky, because, there is no way to determine if everything is determinate or not, one way or another. Because of that, the concept of 'Free Will' is just metaphysical word games. People pull that phrase out of their hats when they want to try to explain why there is 'evil' in the world,and to excuse an all knowing, all powerful creator God from being responsible for that evil.
 
Calvinism is a denomination of Christianity that accepts determinism. The two aren't incompatible, even if it's not a popular position for churchgoers to accept.

You're right in the regard that we still have the illusion of free will, so ultimately it won't have a good deal of impact on our lives since we won't know what will be until it occurs, but as you point out it certainly raises moral questions in regard to religion.



Wasn't Calvinism the religion of Jonathan Edwards?

In any event, I think they are of the belief that there are the elect among the rest of us and we are destined for either heaven or hell at the caprice of the Almighty. None of us are worthy and so the few that are spared the fires of damnation are evidence of His mercy.

I googled it. Haven't given this a second thought in about 40 years. Yes he was a Calvinist preacher and his God was not a merciful one so there is no conflict there.
 
Because we have no choice but to dance to the illusion that we have a choice. Part of that destiny is believing we have free will. All is predetermined, it's just unpredictable by us.

I do hope you realize I am being snarky, because, there is no way to determine if everything is determinate or not, one way or another. Because of that, the concept of 'Free Will' is just metaphysical word games. People pull that phrase out of their hats when they want to try to explain why there is 'evil' in the world,and to excuse an all knowing, all powerful creator God from being responsible for that evil.

I agree we must continue with the illusion but not within the criminal justice system. What must be understood there is that, to the other poster mostly, is that it is simply there to rehabilitate. Poor people aren't inherently more evil yet you get more crime there, because we all act within our choices based on our current map of the world and what we believe we can do. That is why Norway does well with recidivism and the USA does not. The justice system should be there purely as a utilitarian and consequentialist tool, to create better outcomes or solve problems. Not as a tool of punishment or vindication.

Other than that though, Free Will has no scientific basis or even a presence within scientific enquiry. It can't be adequately defined enough to test. Certain elements of volition can and manifestly no evidence has arisen to prove any conscious free will and everything to preprogrammed subconscious determinism. At best we can hope, perhaps point to a longer term guidance of values and long term goals and desires. But certainly nothing to suggest so.

And yet. I'm also a fan of NLP and self help in general, in positive psychology. How on earth do they gel? Well we are back to treating it like an illusion because we are just so god damn complex that it is the only way to go on.
 
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